|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773 |
This is the best description of recording sample rates that I have ever heard: https://www.recordingrevolution.com/what-sample-rate-should-you-record-and-mix-at/What do yo think?
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,630
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,630 |
I think he makes a number of mistakes. It's not about a "smoother sounding curve" - it's about being able to capture higher frequencies. A lower sampling rate simply won't be able to accurately capture higher frequencies. Higher frequencies won't come out less "smooth", they'll be aliased to the wrong frequency. Back to the frames per second analogy that he used - remember those old westerns where the spoked covered wagons wheels seemed to spin backwards? Yeah, I'm dating myself with this example. That's because they rotated faster than the camera's FPS could capture. So when the film played back, it was "reconstructed" back spinning at the wrong rate. The same thing happens when you record a frequency that's too high for the sampling rate - there's not enough information to reconstruct it accurately. The Nyquist rate says that you need a sample frequency that's twice the highest frequency that you want to accurately record. Frequencies above that rate won't necessarily play back "less smoothly" - it depends on their relationship with the sampling frequency - but they'll definitely just be inaccurate.  By way of the "wagon wheel" example - sometime the wheels would "smoothly" run backwards. We've generally agreed that most of us really can't hear sounds above a certain frequency, so we're OK with throwing them away. If you want to future-proof your songs for the day when humans develop super-accurate hearing instead of the non-linear Mel scale, feel free to use higher sample rates. The other problem is that "smoothness" relates to the number of bits per sample. That is, when we hear audio that's "grainy" or "not smooth", we're hearing audio artifacts that come from the bit rate, not the sampling rate. Each sample - independent of the sampling rate - stores the amplitude at a given point in time. The bit rate describes the range of numbers that a sample can hold. The more bits, the more numbers. The more numbers, the smoother the curve. So, for example, if you have 8 bits per sample, you've got a maximum of 256 distinct values. That's going to give you a rather jagged looking curve:  (Image from AnimeMusicVideos.org)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 461
Journeyman
|
|
Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 461 |
My interface will record in 24bit/96k but I never record in 96k. I have been recording in 24/44.1 forever. Not only can I not hear a difference but I don't need anything slowing my system down that does not need to be.
BIAB 2024 Ultrapack- Studio One Pro 6.5 Windows 10
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773 |
Dave, you are absolutely right about the Nyquist theory and the bit rate. What I got out of that video was that there is really no reason for most of us to record over 44.1.
Thanx for bringing up those two points as they are extremely important in digital recording.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773 |
My interface will record in 24bit/96k but I never record in 96k. I have been recording in 24/44.1 forever. Not only can I not hear a difference but I don't need anything slowing my system down that does not need to be. Same here. Also to distribute your songs you will have to come down to 44.1 for CDs or MP3s anyway.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629 |
I guess I have a little different understanding of the theory than Dave. Bit rate determines the dynamic range of each sample. 16 bit is -96 dB of dynamic range and and 24 bit is -144 dB. Humans hear -120 dB, so we fall between the two, meaning 16 bit can be perceived (though slightly) and 24 bit exceeds our hearing limitations. This also affects the theoretical noise floor. Sampling rate determines how 'often' each chunk (regardless of bit rate) is captured. Yes Nyquist shows us this also determines the highest frequency possible to capture, but it also determines how many slivers (or samples) happen every second. The more slivers you have, the less of the 'stepping' shown in many of the audio diagrams is occurring 'between' each sample due to the sheer number of them. The two rates work together in giving us the digital representation of the audio we hear. Another very important step is the A/D and D/A convertors that make the conversion from audio to digital and then back from digital to audio. These are all built to smooth these steps back out. Contrary to what is perceived in the common images, digital recordings do not play back as square block chunks, this is just used to show the theory. Much magic goes on during the conversion process. One of my recent favorite articles to simplify all this is here - https://ask.audio/articles/how-high-is-high-enough-for-hiresolution-audio
Last edited by rharv; 02/02/19 05:37 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629 |
That's the funny part; how many people concern themselves with this only to post and listen to MP3s (or other lossy formats) anyway ..
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
Oh boy. I don’t have time here to correct all of the errors. I realize that comes off as pompous. But in my masters degree coursework I took a graduate course in digital signal processing. I had to learn sampling theory and practical methods in detail.
As a musician and home recordist taking the class, my focus was always on what practical benefits can be achieved by recording digitally and where do the capabilities swamp the practicalities.
I came away from the course with many learnings that I did not have going in to the course.
Probably one of the biggest ‘aha’ moments was that what comes out of speakers from a digitally recorded sound is NOT the stair step picture you see above. That is merely a graphic representation of a digitized signal. The flats of the steps are not really there in the digital to analog conversion back out to the amp/speakers. The flats aren’t even there digitally. A better representation of the flats is to think of them as a spike at that level.
When the spike then gets converted back to analog it hits the d/a filter and that filter rings out a continuous analog signal that is truly continuous and not flat at all. In fact it rings with a varying waveform like any other analog circuit hit with a spike of energy. Superimpose these tinging outputs sample after sample after sample, and that superposition is the analog waveform the amplifier sends to the speakers. Not a stair step.
Technically it is quite a beautiful thing to a nerd. Even a graph of superposition of these ringing waveforms is quite beautiful.
Practically, I learned that even though there are claims of people that they can hear improvements in higher and higher sample rates, there are no physiological backups to their claims that rates of 96kHz or 128 kHz sound better, given the well established upper frequency limit of human hearing to be in the region of 20kHz to 24 kHz or so.
The other practical thing that came out of the course was that bit depth, on the other hand is VERY important in both the quality of the represented signal as well as the simple practicality of what care one has to represent the original analog signal gain with the digitized representation.
Bit depth does NOT increase the dynamic range that you can record.
Bit depth DOES change the error of which spike level has to be used to represent the analog signal.
The easiest way to think about this is recording the closest thing you have to silence. You never really have silence at the input. There’s always some noise there.
The a/d converter has to place that little bit of noise at a spike level, either a spike that is supposed to be zero or the spike that represents the next higher level. As you increase bit depth, the steps between the spikes get smaller and smaller, by a lot. This level selecting of the a/d converter is called quantization noise. It has a known value. It’s 6 dB smaller, relatively speaking, for each additional bit depth. So the difference between a 16 bit and 24 bit converter is that the 24 bit converters quantization noise is 48 dB lower than for a 16 bit converter. The quantization noise floor, so to speak, is 48 dB lower than a 16 bit converter noise floor.
To take advantage of the full dynamic range of the a/d converter, we tried to match the analog signal to the full number of spikes available, we recordist really spent quite a bit of time matching analog gain with all 16 bits of a 16 bit a/d converter.
Time consuming.
With 24 bit, it’s still a good practice to try to gain match, but the practical benefits to take the time to do so almost disappear audibly. If you can see that you are using even 50% of your input range by monitoring your level meters in your DAW, its going to be a significantly cleaner recording than the time consuming process at 16 bit to match gains.
This has major practical implications for recording workflow at home and getting clean recordings, relatively speaking.
For me, 24 bit always. Sample rate at least 44.1kHz, but no practical reason to go higher than that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,773 |
Thanx everyone for your input. This has been very educational for me.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
Edit. Double post
Last edited by rockstar_not; 02/02/19 10:07 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,121
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,121 |
Thanks for the explanation. What you said makes a lot of sense.
On a side note I firmly believe the Audiophile RealTracks and RealDrums should be 24 bit depth at 44.1KHz sample rate. Your explanation explains why better than I ever could.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,629 |
Yes, thanks Scott. The important part to me is that digital audio is really not 'block shaped' .. it is smooth as you mentioned. The commonly used images showing it as such are just for demonstration of the concepts. Somewhere I found an empirical (blind) study that said only 40% of people can 'confidently' identify recordings with content above 18 kHz. The theory that intrigues me is whether even though we don't hear them, do these overtones affect the range we can hear due to the physical interplay between the harmonics. 
Last edited by rharv; 02/03/19 04:59 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,578
Posts734,636
Members38,499
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean