Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
I borrowed the thread title from a new forum poster, Greg Tango. It sums up my feelings about Biab's print function nicely.

Myself and others have been talking about this for years. I'm going to be the squeaky wheel about this just like Pipeline was for the VST. If PGM can create a brand new VST then they can fix all these print issues as well.

1.
Clean up and combine elements of the Notation Options window, the Print options window and the Lead Sheet Options window. They still after all these years confuse the heck out of me and I can just imagine others without my experience. Here's some examples.

You want to print a chart. Say you're in the Leadsheet window. That's a logical place to be for an experienced player used to reading charts. Also known as what? Leadsheets! Of course somebody might look there. There's an option box there so you make some changes. Does that affect printing? NO! Is there at least a popup saying if you want to print this you're in the wrong Options window? NO. Next point.

At first glance why does Notation Options change the printing but Leadsheet options doesn't? Does Notation Options indicate anywhere that these changes flow to Print? NO!. You finally figure that out, make some changes. Next point.

Now you go to Print Options and check Preview Graphics. If the preview shows the chords too close to the melody notes on the staff below you have to exit the Preview and you're back to Print options. Anything there about changing the chord spacing? NO! Why not? You're in Print Options, jeesh. You have to open Notation Options and reset the chord spacing there. Is this obvious anywhere? NO! You just have to grok it yourself or somebody explains it to you. You figure that out and reopen Print Options and see if that did it. If you don't like it then you have to do that routine again. Now, another thing...

In the Preview Graphics window that shows what the actual chart looks like, there is an OPT button in the top menu bar. You're not happy and need to make more changes. Does that OPT button go back to Print Options? NO! It opens a small pixel size window! What kind of logic is that? Next.

Every time you close/reopen the Print Options it doesn't remember what you did such as do you want to print the first chorus, last chorus or whole song. That goes away every time. Another bug that's been there as long as I can remember.

2. How 1st/2nd endings are displayed. You can change the chord spacing but can't do anything about those endings spacing. They're way too close to the staff and if there's a chord there it's impossible to read.

The problem with 1st/2nd endings could be fixed if the print function allowed individual spacing between the staves. As it is now, the whole song has to be equal spacing. The only control we have is how many staves on a page. If stave 4 is the one with the repeat endings, just allow us to put more space between staves 3 and 4 to allow the 1st ending number and the line that goes over it to be say twice as large and allow room for a chord to be placed above it. The rest of the stave spacing could stay the same if a user wanted.

There's a similar issue with the spacing between the song title and the top of the page as well as spacing between the song title and the first Stave. Many times I only need a few single line spaces somewhere to make one stave that carried over to page 2 fit on page 1. I don't want to be forced to create an equally spaced stave for that.

3. You have font size in Leadsheet Options and Notation options as percentages. Print Options has it as a default of 24. Why percentages in two of these and a simple number in one?

4. I can understand the Leetsheet is for folks who want to follow along on the screen while the song is playing so they may want a different font size or spacing from what is needed to print. Ok, when you open Leadsheet Options have it clearly say this is display only, not for printing. Notation Options would be the same. Notation Options should be for how the Notation looks when you're either looking at Notation or editing/creating Notation. Nothing to do with printing.

I just reviewed again the Print help window. No mention of these endings or codas. They are talked about extensively in the Notation Help window. When you click on the Print Preview link it does show an example of a chart. Old Folks At Home. A dead simple song with triad chords and nothing else. Yes, a song like that displays great because there's nothing beyond the most basic things in it! Try creating an example song with more complex chords like a Ebm 6/9 where the extensions are displayed vertically in parentheses that takes up more vertical space with 1st/2nd endings and a coda and show everybody what that looks like. Trust me, users won't like it.

The VST is being praised because it attracts a more professional level of user who may not have considered Biab in the past. Well, what kinds of songs will that level of user create? Old Folks At Home? C'mon guys use Biab's own song creation functions to come up with something complex and cool, and use that to demonstrate the print functions.

After it's been corrected and actually made useful of course.

Many users don't want to buy a dedicated, expensive and very complex notation program just to produce good charts for band use. They're not writing full musical scores. Biab is almost there guys, fix it and it will turn into a great feature.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
I tend to agree. It's so close but just doesn't have the edge. Probably not incredibly difficult to resolve these nuances.


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Yes and for 15 years we've been saying that. Over and over and over...

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 645
D
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
D
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 645
+1
I have just received a response from PGM to a problem going back to at least 2004. Using a DS al coda AND repeats still doesn't work properly. The sign is correct, the exit and entry marks to the coda are fine, but the DS al coda is lost under the repeat mark.

This is PGMs reply. It just confirms the problem.
"The DS al coda sign is there, it's just buried in the fakesheet of the 3x repeat - which is a limitation of the current programming. This means if you have the fakesheet enabled in either the chord sheet or the Leadsheet - you won't see your DS al coda."
Typically, PGM say "we have reported it to the developers as a feature to possibly redesign in the future"

Their excuse - "Repeats, codas, and endings have always been a difficult feature to program in Band-in-a-Box due to the algorithms used to generate the RealTracks " What has this to do with RealTracks? In fact, I think the problem predates RealTracks.

Peter even responded to one of my emails "Thanks for reporting it. We will look at that for sure."

For many of us, Notation is important, perhaps even more so than thousands of RealTracks and styles. Yet it still print control is really poor. Forum members have complained about the GUI being dated; Printing notation is archaic.


BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
Windows 10 (1909)
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
I completely agree.

However this is a common problem when software tries to be all inclusive and that is something has to give. In PGMusic's case it is notation. Notation is not a high priority for PGMusic period.

BUT if a music program includes notation it should be done right and not half @ssed. If would be better not to include notation and depend on other software like the free Musescore then to include a broken version of notation.

I hold this opinion on a lot of software, i.e. quit trying to be all inclusive and concentrate on your specialty. YMMV


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,218
L
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
L
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,218
+1 here.
Make it simpler.
Make it work.

Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,218
L
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
L
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,218
+1 here.
Make it simpler.
Make it work.

Jazzmammal:
Don't suppose it would help to also post this on the WishList???

Good luck!
LLOYD S

Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
The thing that really frosts me is this has been an advertised feature for as long as I've used the program. Afaik, there has been only a few small additions over that time but nothing structural. They apparently created it as it is now and just left it. They must have thought that all anybody needed or wanted was basic simple charts like Old Folks At Home.

What gets me even more is back then Biab was heavily jazz oriented and jazz charts are not Old Folks At Home. Didn't the developers actually look at Real Book jazz charts? The Help file about that implies they did because it says you can create repeats, endings, codas and all that. Well look at the chart for something like Night in Tunisia and make the notation/print function recreate it. Not that stupid Old Folks At Home.

Biab is trying to modernize, attract new users, create newer, hipper Real Styles backed up by all these great new Real Tracks by new young players like the guys from Snarky Puppy. Those kids are skilled, schooled musicians. Think they know how to create good charts?

Ditch old crap like Old Folks At Home to be used as an example. Worried about copyright? A great feature of Biab is it has the ability to create brand new songs with melodies from scratch. So take this opportunity to both create a complex new song and show the chart to go with it.

Why do I have to be Captain Obvious about stuff like this? Ha, it just hit me, the way I've been writing in this thread I'm being a Snarky Puppy too. Whatever it takes.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,838
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,838


Musiclover

My music https://www.youtube.com/user/donegalprideofall

Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2024, Cubase 13, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use smile
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Quote:
Peter even responded to one of my emails "Thanks for reporting it. We will look at that for sure."

I'm sure I've seen that exact same line before...


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Hi Bob, I definitely agree with your list. My main use of BiaB is to write small jazz band arrangements and print Lead Sheets (normal definition) for the whole band.

Plus, using the one BiaB file, try printing out the lead sheets in Bass Clef for a trombonist (I'm one!) and there are even more problems. Bar-Based Section Letters for instance.

So close, yet so far. From one who uses BiaB just about every day - sometimes for many hours. Some of those hours are used up adding ink notes to the otherwise great print outs. My band members absolutely love the BiaB lead sheets! And those that have BiaB themselves are able to hear the arrangements and play-along with those great rhythm sections in their own practice room. So please marketing and programmers, remember when you are making changes for the solo strummers to use live, that we traditional users still want to use the program in the same way. We would also like some improvements to the program for our usage.


Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Originally Posted By: musiclover


Blackface? Lovely, just effin lovely. I see you're in Ireland, you probably don't know the trouble the governor of Virginia is in right now over him doing some blackface skits when he was in med school.

Yeah, a great tune to use as an example of Biab's print function.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
As for posting this in the Wishlist, been there, done that. Many times.

Pipeline didn't keep his push for 64 bit and a VST in the Wishlist did he? I learned that lesson from him. I've been too polite, too apologetic thinking PGM knows what they're doing, if somethings been in the Wishlist for over ten years it probably means it truly cannot be done, etc, etc. Pipeline blew that thinking out of the water and good for him. The squeaky wheel does get the grease.

I'm going to push and keeping pushing this. And I don't want everybody to simply agree, I think my suggestions are fairly good but others could easily have better ones and I would like this thread to be the place to put them. Graham has a great one about non concert instruments.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 913
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 913
+10.000 for simplifying and optimizing all those distributed print options!


Biab/RB latest build, German Language Pak, Win 10/64 Pro, 1 TB SSD, 32 GB RAM. Notation SW Finale, StaffPad, SmartsScore – Playing Double Bass, Guitar, Piano
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Hmmm, if there's only seven people on this forum including me who care about this issue, maybe this is the reason nothing has been done for 20 years? I guess most users are not musically adept enough to understand or care about notation and writing charts.

C'mon people, start posting comments, suggestions, whatever or this push will die on the vine.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Bob,

It would be really great if PG Music stepped in with a comment of some sort. The wishlist is laden with requests for both bug fixes and improvements but we are of course not able to deliver those requests.

I agree that the suggested improvements / fixes would be extremely beneficial, but PGM ultimately decides.

PGM?


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,796
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,796
Originally Posted By: musiclover

I don't like Stephen Foster: also one of those so called 'composers' who actually stole a lot of existing un-registered trad and other material and claimed it to be his work and got away with it. BTW this video is sort of tragi-comedy, also makes me think of a kind of Andre Rieu type Freak show LoL.

Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Hmmm, if there's only seven people on this forum including me who care about this issue, maybe this is the reason nothing has been done for 20 years? I guess most users are not musically adept enough to understand or care about notation and writing charts.

...
Bob

Because I am more than musically adept and I care about notation, I use other products. I do appreciate the effort PG Music has made to support importing and exporting Music XML.

And I agree with Mario that I wish music programs would stick with what they know best and not try to be all things to all users. For many years we have asked for either improvements to notation, or a solid integration with other dedicated notation programs. Since notation is advertised as a feature, it seems unlikely BIAB would remove it, but at least they have made efforts to integrate with other programs better.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,449
C
Expert
Online Content
Expert
C
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,449
I agree. Using BIAB as a notation software would save me hours of work, believe me, but I completely gave up on that many years ago. It's a shame, but it just can't be used for that.


BIAB 2024, latest build.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,796
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,796
Originally Posted By: Cerio
I agree. Using BIAB as a notation software would save me hours of work, believe me, but I completely gave up on that many years ago. It's a shame, but it just can't be used for that.

I use BIAB for simple leadsheets; melody plus chords .... For serious printing however built into a DAW i'd use Cubase Pro.

PS Still have my spare license for sale; Retail Cubase pro v10.0.15, latest, with the dongle 425 USD, shipping insured 20 extra. You can download the 30days trial fom Steinberg to get started, includes Halion Sonic 3SE and Groove Agent 5SE. https://new.steinberg.net/cubase/compare-editions/

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,395
Posts732,501
Members38,441
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
zagrajbarke, Ernest J, Izzy, BenChaz, Csofi
38,440 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 195
Al-David 124
DC Ron 116
dcuny 87
rsdean 82
Today's Birthdays
CeeDee, SethMould
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5