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#532730 - 04/14/19 04:39 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi John, thanks for the test. I just did your first test (1. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Track, Save Track to File") and got the same results you said (no volume node change to the .wav file). Then I went back and did my test (File, Sav As, .Wav) and as stated in my last few posts the volume node settings were saved to the .wav file. With my method since the track I am saving appears to be stereo and your #6 test mentions stereo I am wondering if that might have something to do with it.

I just did two other test which reflect what I will be doing in all my jam mix downs and I highly doubt that I will ever get more fancy that this.

Test #1:
I took the output of the first test I made in this post (the test that wrote the .wav track out without applying the volume node adjustments). I dragged that .wav file onto RealBand track number two. I than did a (file, save as, .wav) of both tracks to a temp file and I could still hear all parts of the track #2 (normal volume 3 times, zero volume 3 times, normal volume 3 times). I then did a variant where I applied the volume nodes in the exact same fashion to track #2 as was done to track #1 where the volume nodes reflect what I was saying on the track. So I did a (file, save as, .wav) and as hoped during the portion where I was saying "zero volume" there was no sound.

Test #2:
I highlighted the wave form of one of the 2 tracks in the above Test #1 and I right clicked on it and selected Audio Effects then selected reverb. I chose one of the drop down reverb settings and choosing it adjusted the 5 individual settings at the top. I clicked on process. It applied the settings to the highlighted track. I then chose "File, Save as, .wav". The reverb could be heard during the playback of the .wav and also the middle section where I say "zero volume" had no sound indicating the volume nodes had been applied to both tracks when saved to .wav.

Thanks guys for all your help. It seems that much to my relief I probably will never need to use anything but Real Band for recording the jams we do and I can focus most of my attention at being a better guitar player. I probably won't post any more here and if I do it will be after April 28th. I have 18 songs to brush up on in 2 weeks and the target is no more than 3 errors on any of (melody, rhythm, comps, improvising). That isn't easy to do when you make a major change to your technique which typically won't be mastered for a year. Need to focus :-) Having said that at least I now know I can overdub with RealBand to fix the recordings so at least they are up to the standard I set :-) Life is good :-)

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 05:06 AM)
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#532740 - 04/14/19 07:32 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Gain nodes are supported (for audio tracks and DXi/VSTi tracks). Gain nodes allow for an increase or decrease in dB without the volume slider moving up/down during playback. (Note: These major features were added in mid 2016, and enhanced in 2017.)
The manual really needs to be updated and totally gone through to address these issues. There are a number of these types of issues that that we figured out before but after 3 years we've worked around them and have forgotten the details.
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#532764 - 04/14/19 11:25 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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I didn't try "File, Save As". I'll have to do that also. I guess that makes seven ways to do it. Oy!
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#532774 - 04/14/19 01:57 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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silvertones Offline
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JF you asked the real question "which ones are by design to not work"
Paraphrased
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#532781 - 04/14/19 04:16 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Originally Posted By: jford
I didn't try "File, Save As". I'll have to do that also. I guess that makes seven ways to do it. Oy!


You don't really need to now John. Del and my test answered the question and I marked the thread as (resolved) almost immediately.

Your other tests involving other features that are beyond my daw knowledge level made me think of a joke which was my original response. It was a joke poking fun at myself essentially. I decided maybe it is best I remove it since someone's post suggested it may have been misinterpreted.

I also modified my post regarding my simple test. I created that simple test because my first tests were done with the guitar and poorly thought out leading to way too much time to get the test completed not to mention that I still was not 100% sure there was a problem. The simple test was far better and could have been made even shorter now that I think about it. What is that old saying? "KIS".


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:31 AM)
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#532805 - 04/15/19 04:26 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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The answers to my Audacity Questions.
https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=104601&p=368031#p367872
I am guessing Audacity is no match for RealBand but it might be useful as a backup and interesting to learn (for me at least).


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:29 AM)
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#532822 - 04/15/19 06:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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silvertones Offline
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Troll
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#532827 - 04/15/19 07:27 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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I have several comments that may help John Bowles solve his recordings issues that don't appear to have been addressed or completely discussed in the thread yet.


When you import a file into RB, if it was recorded as a mono track on your USB, before you import it into RB, Right click or double click in the Song Title area of the track you want to import the audio to (this will initially read - Untitled) and change the default selection from Stereo to Mono. A mono file is best processed as a mono file unless you intend to apply stereo effects to the track. There's a third choice to change the default from audio to midi as well if the track is intended to receive midi.


What has been pointed out but not made clear is that with John's jam recording workflow, after importing his audio into RB, John should be mixing his tracks using volume automation rather than the default gain automation. Gain and volume appear to be similar (and they are) but they are intended for completely separate operation and purpose in a mixer. John, I think you are not getting the results you expect or desire because you are using the wrong tool for the function. I didn't have to do your tests to know you aren't getting your desired results. It's not likely a RB defect but even if there's a defect, you avoid the situation by using the correct tool. Gain and volume operation and purpose differences also apply to your physical 16 channel mixer or for that matter, any mixer whether it's analog or digital and also any DAW you use. Gain and volume are always two separate and different functions that are both essential to quality recording or live broadcast. Having proper gain and volume automation have nothing to do with whether any specific RB save sequence retains the settings or not. Apparently, RB can do either dependent on which save sequence one chooses and the proper sequence should be chosen by the need to either have the automation included or if it's desired to retain a copy of unedited audio.

I have found it a good best practice when editing volume automation to every so often and always before saving to Rt click on the automation line and from the drop down menu, select Cleanup Nodes. It's also a good best practice to do a Save File procedure after every few edits of any type so in the event of a malfunction you only have a few things to redo.


Hope this helps out a bit.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (04/15/19 08:17 AM)
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#532861 - 04/15/19 10:36 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Charlie. I copied your post to the list of things I read over before I start mixing each monthly jam. That is the best time to read it and learn it (learn by doing). It may take a few mix sessions before I retain what I learn :-) Regards, John


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:32 AM)
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#532948 - 04/16/19 07:06 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I was curious if the 2016 RealBand user manual had anything on volume automation. All these user manual key word searches find nothing. "Volume nodes", "Gain Nodes", "nodes", "volume automation", "automation".

From a computer systems analyst's perspective I was looking at the fact that you need to pull down the volume node area to see the drop down box. It probably would be possible to have that drop down for "volume nodes" out where is it not hidden away at all (the extra long entry could be a hover over popup). Had I have seen that drop down box this thread may not have existed.

Maybe PGmusic has fixed these shortcomings already or maybe that is something to consider. An enhanced user experience may mean more sales. Having said that a fair number of people on the "Audacity Forum" have seen the RealBand gain node screen and that does not hurt either. I reported the solution back to that forum and the fact that the gain nodes issue has been fixed. If those audacity forum users like the idea of using BIAB for a jam group and they check into BIAB and Real band they won't be looking at my 2016 version.

One last item which is indirectly related and probably more of interest to PGmusic. Some jazz charts are a bit confusing. I am now using the BIAB chord screen for the chart clarification image and also to give them the chords to songs when they do not have the fake book so they can join in to do rhythm and solos. Part of the reason for this is if the members see the BIAB screen they are more likely to get interested in buying BIAB and if they do they can simply download the BIAB file from my website (the exact file I use during the jams when we don't have a drummer which is most times at present). This ideas is the exact same idea as the Audacity Forum users seeing the BIAB screen. Some of those forum users might be located close to me and interested in my Jazz Jams Group.


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:27 AM)
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#532950 - 04/16/19 07:27 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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John Bowles (and others) -

This forum post from 2016 goes back to where this discussion all started.

Don't know if it helps, but it does provide some historical perspective.


Edited by jford (04/16/19 07:34 AM)
Edit Reason: Updated URL link
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#532952 - 04/16/19 07:29 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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I got access denied when I click on that link????? Why? No matter. I really should be practicing for that April 28th jam. It is all good now :-) If I get some free time this summer I may check into upgrading to 2019 and with both volume nodes and gain nodes available I may be able to use (learn by doing) as a way to understand why RealBand has both Volume Nodes and Gain Nodes :-) At this point ignorance is bliss :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:35 AM)
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#532953 - 04/16/19 07:35 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Try it again, John, and see if it works now.
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#532954 - 04/16/19 07:39 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Still no access. Maybe you have to be a senior member. It reminds me of my lack of knowledge on BIAB and Real band. I got this idea I would get the posts emailed to me. I did that. I tried answering a question and quickly realized I know very little about a lot of this stuff and I have no place trying to help people here. it is much like My joke I had put in that someone misinterpreted. I am a jazz guitarist and programmer analyst. I really have no real need to become a sound engineer and certainly no time (I practice 5 to 9 hours a day for jams for almost 3 weeks solid 7 days a week and I should practice more). In my mind Real Band is the best thing next to sliced bread (now that I know volume nodes work that is) :-)

I help in the ways I can. I point out programming design weaknesses and documentation flaws. My lack of knowledge about daw stuff puts me at an advantage here (at times possibly).


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:58 AM)
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#532962 - 04/16/19 08:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Sorry, just realized it is from one of the beta forums, which has limited access. My apologies.

It talked about the change to incorporate both overall volume change along expression change nodes on a track. It was implemented in RealBand 2016 (your version) as I understand, so that's the first version to have it.

The sad part is that I find no reference to the nodes feature and how to use it at all in the RealBand 2019 user manual.
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#532975 - 04/16/19 09:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks John. I am so glad I upgraded from 2012 at the time volume & gain nodes were implemented. Such a great feature and now that I know about it I would not live without it...lol.

From what you are saying it seems like the original video I watched below is the only documentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=3s

So Charlie has me curious and I think back about a comment I made after Del posted (to google search gain versus volume). So here it is with a comment below.

Google: Music Gain versus Volume
Quote:
Both gain and levels refer to the loudness of the audio. However, gain is the input level of the clips and volume is the output. In recording audio, gain is the first control that the microphone signal goes through in a mixer while levels are adjusted after that.


So I think this might explains Charlie's comment. If gain is the input side then it is changing the input to the track. Volume is the output side so this is likely the output to the .wav during "file Save-as". So maybe (and this makes me laugh...lol) you should go back and do a test of "File save-as" with gain-nodes after all with your version to see if it actually does get passed through to the .wav file. In my mind it should but I am confused now. I am not sure. It is just a curiosity thing at this point. I went back and checked Del's post and he said that gain nodes adjustments do not get passed to the .wav file with "file save-as" during the 2017 version either. Actually It just hit me. Charlie is probably correct! See next post as to why.

About my simple test. Here is why I made it up.
My first test was with the guitar. I played along for a while playing a variety of chords. So I went back and adjusted the gain nodes but not that much. I had so much trouble listening to it waiting for the volume change which never came and I wasn't sure if it had changed because I had not adjusted it much. It as a waste of time so I developed my simple test. A better test than the fix I posted would be three words. (Normal, zero, normal) with a gap between them giving one some room to adjust the nodes. If a mike is not available three notes (High-pitch, low-pitch, high-pitch). The recording should take no more than 10 seconds to record and the node adjustment should be to zero of course. So I made up the instructions to help others avoid my mistake then I later documented them step by step for some who might be more green than I am. The easier it was the greater the chance that someone would do the test.



Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 05:49 PM)
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#532987 - 04/16/19 10:24 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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Topic #1: For the reason below I am betting gain nodes do not write out to the .wav file with (FILE, save as) even in RealBand 2019. However if I remember correctly some said their do?

So I discovered with my anolog mixer I use at the jams that I am best to turn the gain up for the drum mikes but have the output faders fully off so the drums does not come out the P.A. The reason is the drums are so loud. The idea was to point a PA speaker at the drummer and have him adjust his rock drumming down to jazz levels or at least the two of us will work together to come up with a compromise. Having the PA speaker equal distance to his ear as his drums are to his ear would help him know how loud to play. I would have a special mike out front of us so I hopefully could hear the PA to drums mix such that I could be better informed as to what is going on. So back to the topic I discovered that I had to have the gain settings up in order for the drums to be recorded on some of the 16 output tracks of the mixer which would go to the RealBand daw. So that explains Charlie's comment. The faders feed the mix output and the gain feeds the individual tracks. The Individual tracks are fully dry because it is expected that you will do a second mix with them using a DAW. Therefor only the volume node adjustments should it be written out to the mix (to the File/Save-As .wav file).


Topic #2: Observations of the nodes video:
I am listening to this video again (link below) and he calls it "Volume Automation". He does not show adjusting it from gain-nodes to volume-nodes. I also checked the colour. The video shows light blue which is the volume-nodes. The gain-nodes are green. Not only that he expands the node area and it does not show the drop down where you can switch between the volume-nodes and the gain-nodes. So this means that this video is suggesting that volume-nodes existed before gain-nodes existed and not only that for some reason the default setting for RealBand 2016 is the gain-nodes. If I change any track to gain-nodes and save the file it remembers it and changes the node type to gain nodes on all tracks if I am not wrong. No doubt they have been to busy to document this properly. Another video needs to be created since this one is older than my 2016 version and some of the menu drop downs I have are missing from the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=3s


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 05:42 PM)
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#533099 - 04/17/19 05:00 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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Using a "20" search I found the primary test entries to this thread to try and see if any of the tests were with gain-nodes. It seems like none were with gain-nodes except my test and Del's comments. The primary question remains. Does 2019 default to gain-nodes or volume-nodes and do the 2019 version gain-nodes write to the .wav file during "file, save-as". I quoted all the entries I found and entered a few comments which are not really all that important. You might want to read them if you have unlimited time otherwise I would not bother. PgMusic might want to (set the RealBand install default to volume-nodes) or (documented the features) or (at least not hide the drop down toggle) - ideally all 3 of these ideas.

Rharv
Quote:
No difference in perceived or visible volume.
If it helps it was done in RB 2019-3.

My Comment: I am guessing Rharv was using volume-nodes rather than gain-nodes and that explains the successful result. In my case they shipped RealBand defaulting to gain-nodes and we were not yet aware I was using gain-nodes.

My Comment: I reread Rharv's method of testing after a good nights sleep with a clear mind (to much for me at the time - tired, minded clocked). Smart way to test. My objective was different. It was to make it as simple as possible for people of limited time like myself or more green than myself hoping the ease of my test would get some more info. Charlie's test would be better for testing for nuance inaccuracies.

silvertones
Quote:
Works perfectly in 2019. Has always worked perfectly. I rendered the file and opened it in VLC media player and it was perfect.

My comment: Again I suspect it was with volume-nodes and current thread participants were not yet aware I was using the default gain-nodes for my version of 2016. We had not noticed the colour difference (volume-blue, gain-green).

jford
Quote:
Notebook tests were done in 2019.


My Comment: If I remember correctly jford tested with volume-nodes. He did not test "file save-as" but I suspect it would be successful. I suspect testing gain-nodes using "file save-as" would not write to the node adjustments to the .wav file. I say this because of Charlie's comments and my later thinking more about what he said and my jam mixing experiences.

Del
Quote:
I have seen this problem before when I was first trying to use the 'nodes' to adjust levels with RB2017 ver7.

I used the Gain Nodes in db as you are doing and had all kinds of trouble with it not saving the set level. I contacted tech support in October of 2017 and they verified the problem. At that time they instructed me to use Volume nodes instead of Gain nodes. And that fixed the problem for me.

I'm now running RB2018 and the Volume nodes work perfect with RB2018 and Windows 7. It may be worth a try to use the Volume Nodes instead of Gain Nodes. The volume node levels range from 0 to 127 max.


My comment: To bad Del didn't see my post first :-) It would have saved a lot of confusion and time. Even better if PgMusic set the default to volume-nodes or documented the features or at least did not hide the drop down toggle (ideally all 3 of these ideas).

Del
Quote:
Apparently the 'Gain Node' issue I reported in 2017 is still hanging around for some users. Using volume nodes has worked flawlessly for me and I use it in most of my songs.


My comment: I suspect the problem is lack of documentation and setting the factory reset default to gain-nodes so people don't realize they are not using volume-nodes. It may be that they have changed the factory default to volume-nodes at some point after the 2017 version (unknown at this point).

silvertones
Quote:
Gain nodes are supported (for audio tracks and DXi/VSTi tracks). Gain nodes allow for an increase or decrease in dB without the volume slider moving up/down during playback. (Note: These major features were added in mid 2016, and enhanced in 2017.)
The manual really needs to be updated and totally gone through to address these issues. There are a number of these types of issues that that we figured out before but after 3 years we've worked around them and have forgotten the details.


My comment: after (looking up the difference between gain and volume on google and working with my anolog mixer I use for the jams) it makes sense that the gain-nodes do not adjust the faders/sliders since they are used for mixing to the output. To the best of my understanding gain-nodes are used to adjust the input to one track to get max input without distortion .

jford
Quote:
The sad part is that I find no reference to the nodes feature and how to use it at all in the RealBand 2019 user manual.


My Comment: I agree. I figure they are too busy and it does not surprise me because they have a great pair of products. I could not do what I am doing without them.





Edited by bowlesj (04/17/19 05:27 AM)
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#533142 - 04/17/19 09:22 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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The short answer to your last post is to first say the overall subject of gain and volume is more extensive than we will likely discuss here on the forum. That being said, my response to "Even better if PgMusic set the default to volume-nodes or documented the features or at least did not hide the drop down toggle (ideally all 3 of these ideas).", when gain automation is needed, it is always set first before any volume automation is needed. Many people, myself included, usually have a gain setting, not necessarily a specific value but a value within a small range variance that gain is set to insure a consistent audio level and headroom we're use to in our workflow. Gain can be set for the overall track and also to fine adjust peaks and valleys of the audio wav form to minimize needing extreme compression. But that is done before any other processing or adding effects is done. In my opinion, PGMusic has the default correct. On your mixer, the gain or trim knob is physically located on the board before the fader and the default setting, although accessed using a drop down menu rather than a physical fader, is in line with that layout. Documentation is like cow bell, we always need more. DAW's are famous for their hidden and drop down menus so that may be a viable update in a future upgrade.
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#533154 - 04/17/19 11:54 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 543
bowlesj Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 543
Thanks Charlie, makes sense to me and after having thought about your prior post I am guessing Gain-nodes still do not write to the .wav file and maybe that is the way it should be. My burning curiosity led to that last post :-) since my problem has long since been resolved.

Moving the drop down to where it can be seen would be possible (regarding ability to fit) if just "Volume nodes" or "Gain Nodes" was included. There would still be room for the coloring when a track is highlighted. A hover over popup of added info would help and as far as I know this could include one or more links to more extensive reading (possibly web pages) for the info you suggest.

Regarding help I also agree in that ultimately experimenting is needed to learn (learn by doing I think most people learn best from). I will give an example which is kind of extreme but it really drives this point home. As a programmer I have learned varying amounts of 17 programming languages (a tiny bit to almost everything one can know about the language). Regarding the latter, for some reason at about age 44 I really got into the Unix shell scripting languages (3 of them). I went out and got Linux and I bought a book for each language and would read them in the morning for 1.5 hours and list experiments to conduct at night (anything I read would create a new experiment - very thorough - I made absolutely sure I missed nothing). I spent 3 hours a night after my full time programming work day for about 1.5 years 7 days a week plowing through the experiments. I learned more from the experiments than from the book. Way more and way better than reading could ever teach me. I would love to have the time to do this with BIAB and RB but in would be a big waste of time for my limited uses. These days I use "just in time learning" for most of my needs learning only what I need to know and much of the learning is from experimenting. In a way what I did was almost bad for the company. When I left no one could handle the Unix scripts I created because they had every trick in the book. They had to hire a Unix specialist to handle the scripts.

The fact that people generally use "Just in time learning" circles back to the 2nd paragraph. PGmusic I am sure realizes people are busy and PGmusic's challenge is to make the product as easy to learn as possible. Tricks like fitting a drop down box differently is probably no more than an 1 to 3 hours work if it has been programmed in a modular fashion and the payback would be significant. Had I have seen that drop down my experimenting nature would have led me to the solution without the need for this thread. I actually only go to a forum if I am really stuck. I get annoyed at myself when I can't figure it out on my own :-) For me life is like a big learning game. I am 64 and never seem to tire of it.

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/17/19 12:03 PM)
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