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#532038 - 04/08/19 10:31 AM [RealBand] RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes)
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi,

I do not do a lot of mixing with RealBand but I just noticed that it is saving files at volume levels different than the volume levels set by the Nodes. It also does it different from save to save (one save has track one volume correct and another save has track 1 volume incorrect). So I am thinking maybe the only solution is to play back on one computer with RealBand using mike-out and record on a different computer using mike in. That certainly would solve it with very little quality drop.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 06:57 PM)
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#532076 - 04/08/19 03:59 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Does this happen on the same system, or if you save it on one system and Open it on another?
If the latter, do they have the same versions of RB?

I haven't noticed this yet ..
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#532081 - 04/08/19 04:37 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Rharv, Thanks for responding. I will give a bit more detail as to exactly what I am doing

I record the jam session with a 16 track mixing board and feed it to a an external separate power supply USB drive. Later at home I connect that USB drive to my main desktop computer. I delete most of the tracks that I know are not being used and bring in the tracks I think might be used. While viewing the tracks in RealBband I take note of any tracks that are obviously blank and I remove them. I set the best mix I can with faders then if that is not good enough I use the nodes to adjust the mix. This works great in RealBand. I then save it as a .wav file back to the same USB drive but in a different directory. So far I only really noticed the problem with one song so I can't really say it is happening on all songs. I do know RealBand was aborting a fair bit. I tried it with a WMA file and got the same thing. I thought it might be my error so I found the minutes/seconds spot on the recording and compared them back and forth and they were definitely different. So for now i send it out to another computer from RealBand and I have the exact same mix. It takes longer of course.

John
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#532084 - 04/08/19 05:06 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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It might be because RealBand had been aborting and eventually came up with the reset popups. I think maybe I bypassed the one that asked for the output info. It just gave me those popups again so I chose "Microsoft GS wave table synth". Maybe that explains it and maybe it will fix the issue. I did 8 songs before it showed the problem on the 9th song (but again I might have just not noticed it). I have 3 more songs to mix down. While doing these 3 songs I will do some experimenting with extreme volume adjustments to see if I can get it to do it again (Hopefully not). I will report back with the results.



Edited by bowlesj (04/08/19 05:12 PM)
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#532087 - 04/08/19 05:28 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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One thing in RB that I've learned to watch for is the slider that is located in the mixer panel between the tracks and the AUX/Subgroups section. I think it is labeled 'ALL'.
If this changes it definitely affects the final volume.

The Default synth changing (as you mentioned) would also affect volume.
Selecting 'MS GS wave table synth' (instead of Forte) could affect the final output just as well, as settings inside the synth itself could be different.
Just a couple thoughts.
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#532096 - 04/08/19 05:45 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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The master fader on the mixer is set to full now. I never use this window. Maybe I should :-)

I don't have a Forte. The other option is Midi Mapper I think. Or maybe it is Microsoft mapper. I don't see that screen very often. I think I see it if I do a factory reset.

I may be through the other 3 songs tonight. For sure tomorrow. Hoping my tests have a happy result :-)

I should try putting some reverb on my guitar. Last time I did that RealBand aborted so I have avoided it.
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#532113 - 04/08/19 07:53 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I just did the extreme node adjustment test. It is clearly an issue. When I came out of my solo and went to rhythm I took the guitar volume to zero and took the piano up a lot. Next I saved as .wav. The result was the guitar track went to zero volume for the whole recording and the piano track when up for the whole recording. I went back to check the RealBand playback against this and it was doing exactly what I wanted.

My suggestion is for others to give this extreme test a try and see if it can be isolated to just my system.

As before to get this to-do finished I sent the mix out to another computer. Unfortunately it is not as loud and of course more work. I guess I will see if I can use line out rather than headsets out to get it louder.
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#532170 - 04/09/19 08:57 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I just applied the version 10 update and could not resist a quick test. The problem still exists. I just added a picture to be sure the problem is clear. As the picture shows I used the node adjustment to bring the track 2 volume down to zero. It works as it should in RealBand but the .wave save-as file still plays it at full volume. I will email support this link.

I tried digitizing it but I get the same result.


Attachments
RB_Picture.png (13 downloads)



Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 09:10 AM)
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#532180 - 04/09/19 09:48 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Something else to try (although the menus may have changed a little since 2016). Instead of "Save as wav", try using the Render menu instead and select "Merge Audio to Stereo Wave File" and see if that preserves your node settings. Mute any tracks you don't want included in the render. It may be called something similar, but that's what I generally do.
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#532184 - 04/09/19 10:26 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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That didn't work. I also tried export from that render drop down and that didn't work.

To be honest it seems very hard to believe that this bug even exists. As a result I was wondering if there is a way to re-direct the sound output of all RealBand tracks to be rerecorded on a parallel track then once done it would be the only track exported/saved. If this is possible it would make sense to have a popup help on the first use of the nodes to make users aware of this feature.


Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 10:34 AM)
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#532221 - 04/09/19 03:18 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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rharv Offline
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Seems weird nobody else would have noticed this.
I wonder if some other setting is affecting your results on your system.

Can you post a pic of your Options-Prefs-MIDI .. MIDI Output pop up?
Maybe you have some behavior disabled or enabled for MIDI (the Nodes actually use MIDI for the events).

As John mentioned, usually using the 'Render Audio and DXi tracks to stereo file' works exactly as expected (just like the playback in RB).
Using the Save As method, I would actually expect these results, but not using the Render method.

May want to double check that.
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#532230 - 04/09/19 04:13 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Rharv,

I have used these nodes after two prior jam sessions. I didn't notice it because I never bothered to listen to the .wav or mp3 conversion file. I just assumed it would be fine. Now that I am doing this regularly (but only once a month and likely to forget) (to speed things up) I have created a checklist with things to remember to do. One of the new entries is to check the final file before I upload it to sound cloud for the club members to listen to. It just so happened that some of the adjustments were large enough that I noticed it (I didn't notice it until the 9th song). Even then I still had to go back and triple check to make sure I was not imagining it. I wasn't...lol. No doubt about that now :-)

I think these are the images you requested. All the settings should be the standard install settings because twice the program asked me if I want to reset the settings when I started it up. I don't do anything fancy so I said yes.

John




Attachments
New Bitmap Image.png

New Bitmap Image (2).png




Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 04:19 PM)
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#532236 - 04/09/19 04:41 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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rharv Offline
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Yep, those settings look consistent with normal to me.

I'm puzzled confused
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#532247 - 04/09/19 05:44 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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It is very easy to test. The first step is to not assume it is working. Open RealBand, click record, record 5 bars of anything on a single track. Loud grunts work best :-) Click the far left down arrow. Adjust the green node line part way through to take volume to zero and then back up again. Save as .wav. Listen back to see if it dropped the volume. If needed use the seconds to compare the RealBand playback against the .wav. If nodes are new to you watch the video below. Great feature. A must learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY

I really would like to find out if it is or is not working from others and what version you are using. I am sure PGmusic would also like to know.


Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 05:46 PM)
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#532274 - 04/10/19 04:36 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I forgot something in that last post. The info that RealBand users and PGmusic submit regarding how RealBand can save Anode adjustment levels to .wav files will determine if I stick with RealBand 2016, upgrade or replace it with one of several other products that some of my jam group members have been using since long before I formed the group.

I also have trouble saving directly to mp3 but I figure I need some sort of other product installed for that which PGmusic does not supply with the purchase. Currently I use a free .wav conversion tool.


Edited by bowlesj (04/10/19 04:43 AM)
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#532356 - 04/10/19 03:46 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Yes - "It is very easy to test".
Though I may have tested differently.
Instead of opening the resulting file in another player I simply imported all of the test tracks back into RB itself (the original track, the result of saving as Wav, and the result of using Render to save .. Using File-Import).
For the record, I 'Opened' the Seq file with the track that had Nodes, then imported the other two test tracks into the project and used SOLO to compare.

I made sure each track slider was the same (full volume) to ensure equality withinin the app itself.

Every track behaved as expected, volume changed when Nodes did and no track was perceptibly louder than another.

All 3 resulting tracks were played in the same player in order to simply click between tracks for instant comparison as the track(s). I used RB so I could also include the Node behavior of the original track in the test.

No difference in perceived or visible volume.
If it helps it was done in RB 2019-3.

If you were switching back/forth between 2 different players/instances that may be where the problem lies.


Edited by rharv (04/10/19 04:07 PM)
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#532363 - 04/10/19 04:16 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Support suggested I try a factory reset. I kind of think it has already been done with those popups mentioned above but I will give it a go anyway. I would have done it an hour ago but I got distracted by emailed related to my "jazz jam club". After supper I will give it a try and read your post Rharv (mind is clogged at the moment).

I can think of a better way to test than using grunts...lol. Just record on a track and say "normal volume a few times then say zero volume a few times then say normal volume again a few times". Go back and adjust the nodes to reflect what you said. Save it as .wav and play it back. If you hear the zero volume part you have my problem. So much better than grunting...lol. Hopefully I have the solution tonight with the reset. I was looking at other software. A lot of work :-( for all I need. Better if RealBand works :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/10/19 04:21 PM)
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#532382 - 04/10/19 05:53 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I tried the factory reset (see attached pictures). No Luck.
I also show an image of my test recording with the node adjustments (the simple test mentioned above). The way I was testing before by playing guitar was far too hard. Too much time, to hard to tell if the volume had changed, etc. So I developed a much better way with a picture and instructions. Soooooooooo much better.

Stating the volume with my voice makes the test extremely easy and guaranteed to let you know what you need to know.
I tried uploading the .seq file I used for testing but it would not allow the upload.

I tried running the test on my notebook. It gave me an activation message. Because I was thinking I don't want to waste an activation I was going to back off on doing the test there but later I was thinking I am considering another software because of this so I may as well go ahead anyway (If I am using another software I don't care if I have 1,000 activations). It failed on that machine as well. All 3 of my machines use Windows-7. I took Win-10 off the notebook. I Have no need to run RealBand on the notebook (only BIAB need run there).

I will defend my test. The test itself is fine because that .wav file is what I need to use to convert to mp3 and that mp3 is what I have to send to my members (some do not have BIAB or RealBand). They would likely want to hear the volume adjustments. Clearly my moving the volume to zero in the middle of the test should not be heard on the .wav file. Something is not correct. It may be my Win-7. Who knows?

I have a jam coming up and tax to do. Unfortunately I have no more time to work on this at all until after April 28th when the jam is scheduled. I need to clear it form my mind completely. When it comes time to mix that jam I will probably just send it through to the other computer as a work around then decided what to do when I have more time. I love to work and I love learning. I may direct that love toward a different product. Not the end of the world. What I hate is wasting time when there is a shortage of time. If this can be resolved to save time that would be better. I really don't need more than RealBand.




Attachments
RealBandFactoryReset.png

TestImage.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 03:58 PM)
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#532441 - 04/11/19 07:56 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Works perfectly in 2019. Has always worked perfectly. I rendered the file and opened it in VLC media player and it was perfect.
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#532454 - 04/11/19 09:02 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: silvertones]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Silvertones. So basically it should be working on my Win-7 machine is what I take from your saying it has always worked.

I am running Windows-7 with Service Pack 1 on all three of my computers.Years back I had to upgrade Win-XP to a new service pack level because of one software that required it. That is the only time I was forced to go up and back then you could do it with CD updates so it was fine. I just dumped the system requirements below. It should not be an issue according to that. Maybe PG music can answer the question if I need to go up to a higher service pack in order for these node volume adjustments to transfer over to the .wav files. I would prefer a confirmed message rather than "do it just in case" because the the online service pack updates take forever. Both of my computer service people agree. They say "they take a very long time now". They should know since they do a lot of them and they have not reason to lie. If I run it I need to run it starting Friday at 4 pm so it is done by Monday (hopefully). If I have to do this upgrade I might actually look for a RealBand replacement which has a trial I can test with my current setup.

I really should not be looking at this thread any more until April 29th after the next jam I am running. I have to get my tax done and I Need to brush up on 18 songs for the coming jam as I am the melody person of last resort.

System Requirements for Band-in-a-Box®
Windows®: XP / Vista / 7 / 8 / 8.1 / 10 (32 or 64-bit)
Minimum 1GB RAM (2GB+ recommended)
Minimum 1.0 GHz processor (2GHz+ multicore recommended)
1GB free Hard Disk space for a minimal install (15GB+ recommended)
Pro RealCombos: ~15 GB
MegaPAK RealCombos: ~25 GB
Full UltraPAK or UltraPAK+ when installed to internal hard drive: ~120 GB
(another ~100 GB is required for the installation files when downloading the UltraPAK or UltraPAK+).
Please note: Hard Drive versions of the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+ or Audiophile Edition do not require any hard disk space when run directly from the external hard drive they are shipped on.
1024x768 screen resolution (1360x768+ recommended)
DVD-ROM drive for shipped versions of the Pro or MegaPAK.
USB port for the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+ or Audiophile Edition.
Sound card or MIDI module.
Internet connection recommended for activation and updates.


Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 09:20 AM)
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#532464 - 04/11/19 10:58 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Yes it should be working for you. I looked back in the RB Update history all the way back to 2009 and nothing mentioned abouted fixing nodes issues except minor typo stuff, nor do I remember anything during Beta testing as far as I remember.
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#532474 - 04/11/19 12:09 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: silvertones]
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bowlesj Offline
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Maybe there is something deeper in the idea that it has something to do with Midi.

Just curious. Did you try my actual test which takes the volume to zero with comments in the recording saying the volume is zero at that time making the playback in wav such that you should not hear these comments. On the contrary small adjustments that are typical with a recording are easy to miss if you are not looking for them. This is why I did probably 12+15+9 = 36 recordings and never noticed it until I made a fairly larger adjustment. Actually the real reason I noticed it to be honest was because I was fixing my terrible guitar playing at the jam because I had no warm-up and I also changed my technique and I am listening unusually carefully to it. In short I have become an extreme fuss buss as of late regarding these recordings. I had made maybe a -9 drop in one node and a +3 rise in another node and the difference was just barely enough for me to notice it and dig farther. If all one is doing is +3 and -3 and one is not unusually sensitive one won't notice it. You really do have to take the node to absolute zero to make the test easy. Why make it hard so you have to strain to listen to it and spend a lot of time on it? Makes no sense. My test takes maybe 5 minutes and it is a no Brianer to know it is not working (as it should be).

Not only that support told me they can do remote fixing if it is a serious. If they did this test they could run my test and be 100% sure it is happening (actually I could send the .seq and mp3 files through regular email so they would know 100% for sure it is happening by recognizing my voice on both recordings). Again 5 minutes to do this test and I already have the .seq file to save that work so my estimate is probably about right. Why not? It should not be happening. Why is it happening? Valuable info for them I would think.

Lastly once I decided to look for a different product I will install it on my 3rd machine to see if I get the same result. This assumes that I do not loose a BIAB activation since I am happy with BIAB. Three machines with the same bad result? That is highly unlikely to happen right? Speaking of BIAB as an aside I have had BIAB song file downloads for "Jazz Jam Club" members for a while but I just introduced BIAB chord window images as a way for them to get the chords from any of the 7 Hal Leaonard song books I have if I put a song out on the Jam Schedule that is not in a more common song book. There are a few reasons to use the BIAB chord window image for this but one is to encourage them to buy BIAB (the hope being if they see all the buttons they might get interested).

Looking for a different product with my list of 15 items should not take to long. Make up a list of 15 requirements, send a boat load of emails out to forums and sales people. Assign a weekend to each positive response (sorted best to worst of course). I should have my answer for each product by the end of the weekend. If need be I will do it in the summer when the jamming dies off.

Back to tax. Got to get it done tonight :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 01:43 PM)
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#532498 - 04/11/19 06:19 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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John,

It doesn't read like you're using many DAW like features so you may be able to get by with a computer based recording program like +++ Audacity +++. Audacity works with audio only, there is no MIDI involved. So it's essentially a computer based digital audio recorder. The program can record as many tracks at one time as your audio interface and drivers allow. Best of all, the program is FREE!
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#532501 - 04/11/19 07:02 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Jim,

I have an old version of audacity. I don't really know my version very well so maybe the latest version could match RealBand. Without your input I would no have considered it but thanks for the idea. IF I do send out my requirements I will include them.

I just got an idea. I could send my RealBand sequential file out to my club members and ask them to read it in and use the save as to create the wav file and find out the result and their system specs and real band version etc. Maybe I can find one that gets my problem with win-7 service pack 1 and another with win-7 service pack? that does not. If that is the solution I will have enough reason to put up with a weekend without that computer while it slowly gets the service pack installed. IF someone has win-7 with service pack #1 and it works on their machine then at least I know that is not the cause.

Maybe Micrsoft will provide a download the the service pack only when they stop supporting Win7. I could download it to My old WinXP machine which I only use for backups, transfer it over and install it in maybe 20 minutes. If that was possible I would do that in a finger snap.

One member uses Ableton live. I am betting it could match the Realband node function. Garage band maybe. My impression is there are tons of them that put RealBand to shame but for my limited needs if RealBand can do these node volume adjustments I just don't need that kind of horse power.

It just seems very weird that it does not work and I have to send the output to another computer as a work around to get the node function.


Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 07:06 PM)
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John Bowles
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#532525 - 04/12/19 04:14 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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John, there is only a service pack 1 for Windows 7, so you can't go higher. That being said, Windows 7 goes end-of-life in January 2020, after which there will be no more security patches (feature patches ended a while back). I'm in the same boat, as I run Windows 7 on my laptop (didn't go to Windows 10 on it because HP didn't provide proper drivers for either Windows 8 or 10). I can run 10 (and probably will come January), but only get a generic video driver and HDMI doesn't work for when I try to connect my laptop to a TV, nor does the fingerprint reader. But I digress.

Just be aware that come January you may have security concerns with your computer(s).
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#532531 - 04/12/19 05:44 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi John, thanks so much for responding. It must be fate :-) We have the same first name and you are the perfect person to do this test :-)

Maybe you can do me a giant favour and do the simple test for me that I made much clearer than the last time and which is attached to this post with a nice set of detailed step by step instructions. I had to copy the instructions out to a 2nd image so you can read them.

I assume you know how to run the nodes. Just in case others see this post who do not know how to use the nodes and who also want to try my exact test here is the video for how to use the nodes (probably better called "Volume Automation").

Youtube: RealBand Volume Automation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=12s

As mentioned in an prior post my original testing method was far to slow and cumbersome. So I created a much better way and created a picture for how to do it which is shown below. This revised picture has the actual instructions.


Regarding the microphone part of the instructions if one does not have a microphone one could play 3 high notes, 3 low notes and the same 3 high notes (with a larger space between the sets of 3) as a way to make the audio wave form unique (so it is easy to figure out where to adjust the nodes down to zero volume) and (so it is easy listen to the .wav file and figure out where you are in the recording and if it has properly reflected the node adjustments).

Thanks,
John

P.S. If "volume automation" can not be saved to .wav with RealBand then this YouTube/Google search string is probably the best starting point for finding programs that can. String Search: "daw programs with volume automation" or "daw programs with volume automation review". If no program can do it then feeding the sound output to another computer would be the only way I can think of at least (I used it when I could not get RealBand to do it and it works but the volume is kind of low).


Attachments
RealBand_NodeSettingImage.png

RealBand_NodeSettingImage_Instructions.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 04:02 PM)
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#532580 - 04/12/19 10:34 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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If I have time this weekend, I'll give it a try on my Windows 7 laptop and let you know the results I get in RealBand 2019.
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#532581 - 04/12/19 10:55 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks John. IF you can't do it this weekend that is fine. No rush. I won't be doing any mixing again until after April 28th anyway. John
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#532641 - 04/13/19 09:21 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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John B. - I should be able to test this in RB2019 this weekend. However, there are a couple of things I noticed. In the picture you posted, it was just audio tracks, so your MIDI settings (that you later posted) should not apply. Also, I noticed that you are using stereo tracks for what appear to be mono material (the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks. Is there a particular reason for this?
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#532662 - 04/13/19 12:05 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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rharv Offline
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jford,
I asked OP to post his MIDI settings because Nodes are stored as MIDI Events (to my knowledge).
If his MIDI was not sending correctly, these messages wouldn't happen. Just checking for an odd setting that could somehow be causing the OPs issue, since it seems so weird.


Attachments
Node_MIDI.jpg


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#532671 - 04/13/19 02:02 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Originally Posted By: jford
John B. - I should be able to test this in RB2019 this weekend. However, there are a couple of things I noticed. In the picture you posted, it was just audio tracks, so your MIDI settings (that you later posted) should not apply. Also, I noticed that you are using stereo tracks for what appear to be mono material (the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks. Is there a particular reason for this?


Maybe the reason for "the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks" is I was not aware of this and it sounds pretty good to me ear. To bring the .wav files in to RealBand I go to the windows folder where the song tracks are stored, delete the ones I know have no recording data, highlight all the remaining .wav track files , left click and hold on the top track that is highlighted, drag it to the top track of RealBand and release the left button. That drops them all perfectly into RealBand keeping the same name as in the windows folder. So these tracks coming in would be mono and RealBand is doing whatever. If it sounds good to me I don't question it. It is basically the same with the "save As" after the Volume Automation (node) changes. If it sounds good to me (or if it is not important that it be perfect) I am done. It is more or less the same reason I never really checked all the prior recordings before and never noticed the problem before. It is only because I am in the middle of changing my guitar technique (mastering a new technique) that I have become really sensitive to it and listening really closely to it. Translation, my guitar playing live without a good warm-up is below my standard so I redo my guitar playing part of the recordings after a good solid warm-up and listen very carefully to them now. It is in this hyper critical mode I am much more likely to notice issues like the node adjustments not getting written out to the .wav file. In a way I suppose you could call this "just in time learning". My test is a different attitude. Since I am asking others to donate their free time my test is designed to make it easy "meaning you do not need to be hyper critical and listening really hard to notice the issue".


Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 02:14 PM)
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#532682 - 04/13/19 04:45 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Del Offline
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John,
I have seen this problem before when I was first trying to use the 'nodes' to adjust levels with RB2017 ver7.

I used the Gain Nodes in db as you are doing and had all kinds of trouble with it not saving the set level. I contacted tech support in October of 2017 and they verified the problem. At that time they instructed me to use Volume nodes instead of Gain nodes. And that fixed the problem for me.

I'm now running RB2018 and the Volume nodes work perfect with RB2018 and Windows 7. It may be worth a try to use the Volume Nodes instead of Gain Nodes. The volume node levels range from 0 to 127 max.
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#532684 - 04/13/19 05:09 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Del,

thanks so much and wow! Maybe this problem is not so weird after all :-) Your input is very valuable because that eliminates my concern that it might be my using Win-7 without updates causing the problem. I have to assume TechSupport does not remember your problems. I was not aware there such a thing as volume nodes versus gain nodes. I will pock around and see if I can figure it out. Before I get into the google searches etc I am starting to remember some of the things Rharv mentioned 1 or 2 years ago when I first felt the need to have RB store volume changes. I seem to remember it has the ability to remember adjustments I make to the volume sliders. Maybe that is what you are referring to. If so it would not be as nice since one can not see it.

Also since John Ford is going to be doing my tests on version 2019 it sounds like he will get a positive result (the node adjustments will copy to the .wav file). It will be interesting to see what his results are.

So I have a day off with my daughter visiting. While she does some work I have been pocking around with Audacity to see if it can do a visual volume automation. It appears it may be able to. I am about to try and confirm that. If it can solve the problem what I will do is look at the new BIAB features and see if they are enticing enough to make me upgrade.

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 05:28 PM)
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#532685 - 04/13/19 05:15 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 09/03/08
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Del Offline
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John,
when you expand the track to set your node level, you will see a drop down box on the left side of the track. Click that and change it from 'Gain Nodes' to 'Volume Nodes'.
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#532687 - 04/13/19 05:34 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
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bowlesj Offline
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Skip that. I just found it Del. You are a genious :-) I will attach a 2nd picture to help out with this and delete the first one. Now i will see if I can apply my simple little test and get a positive result :-)

Originally Posted By: Del
John,
when you expand the track to set your node level, you will see a drop down box on the left side of the track. Click that and change it from 'Gain Nodes' to 'Volume Nodes'.


Once I click the initial drop down to show the horizontal node line I do not see an additional drop down box to switch back and forth with. I attached the picture. I am on 2016 version 10 now. I don't remember it being any different in 2016 version 7 which I just upgraded from. Did they create a special variant for you?


Attachments
RealBand_Vol_Versus_Gain_Nodes.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 05:44 PM)
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#532688 - 04/13/19 05:40 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Del Offline
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Hover over track 2 as shown in your image, until your cursor changes to a double arrow and then drag track 2 downward, then you should see the other drop down box.
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#532689 - 04/13/19 05:58 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Del, I discovered it and updated my prior post but I guess not fast enough :-) I ran my simple test and the results were positive (see attached picture). Problem solved. Thanks so much for your help. Now the mystery is solved.


Attachments
RealBand_Test_Success_With_Volume_Nodes.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 08:18 PM)
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#532692 - 04/13/19 06:12 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Del Offline
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I'm glad it worked for you John!

I struggled with this problem for several months before tech support told me about the 'Volume Nodes' option.

Apparently the 'Gain Node' issue I reported in 2017 is still hanging around for some users. Using volume nodes has worked flawlessly for me and I use it in most of my songs.
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#532695 - 04/13/19 06:37 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
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bowlesj Offline
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I respect your patience Del. I would have jumped ship very quickly partly because part of me loves to learn new stuff. I was actually starting to investigate Audacity tonight. I would much rather stick with RealBand since BIAB is a wonderful program and we could not have as many jams without it. Bottom line is being a good jazz guitar player is much more important to me than being a great sound engineer. It always will be. Anything to save me time is the highest priority and you saved me a boat load of it tonight. Thanks again. Best of luck to you in everything. John
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#532700 - 04/13/19 08:30 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Okay, here are the results of my testing.

I created a RealBand file using a RealStyle to generate a number of tracks. I then picked one.

I started with Gain Nodes. After bringing various sections down to zero and then back up, I tried saving that individual track using the numerous ways you can do that in RealBand.

1. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Track, Save Track to File"
2. From the top line menu, select "Edit, Track, Save Track to File" (essentially the same as #1.
3. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Save Audio Track As WAV"
4. From top line menu, select "Render, Save Track to File"
5. From top line menu, select "Render, Save All Tracks to WAV Files"
6. Mute all the tracks except the track in question, the from the top line menu, select "Render, Merge Audio to Stereo WAV"

In all instances except #6 ("Merge Audio to Stereo WAV"), the resulting file does not honor the node settings. For #6, it does. Of course, even though my original track was a mono track, I ended up with a resultant stereo WAV file.

I then did the same thing using Volume nodes and obtained exactly the same results.

So, my guess is that the other methods to save a track (#1-#5 above) is to preserve the original underlying WAV file with no processing. #6, however, does honor the nodes so that the rendered down file contains the audio as you hear it normally in RealBand.

I don't know if this was intentional implementation, but it is clearly the way RealBand works.

Another test would be to see whether effects achieve the same results. So I tried it with heavy reverb (since that's easy to hear). I obtained the same results as with the nodes. I only heard reverb when I rendered using the "Merge Audio to Stereo WAV". All other means of saving the track resulted in the dry version of the track with no effects applied.

Hope that helps (at least answer the question).
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#532730 - 04/14/19 04:39 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi John, thanks for the test. I just did your first test (1. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Track, Save Track to File") and got the same results you said (no volume node change to the .wav file). Then I went back and did my test (File, Sav As, .Wav) and as stated in my last few posts the volume node settings were saved to the .wav file. With my method since the track I am saving appears to be stereo and your #6 test mentions stereo I am wondering if that might have something to do with it.

I just did two other test which reflect what I will be doing in all my jam mix downs and I highly doubt that I will ever get more fancy that this.

Test #1:
I took the output of the first test I made in this post (the test that wrote the .wav track out without applying the volume node adjustments). I dragged that .wav file onto RealBand track number two. I than did a (file, save as, .wav) of both tracks to a temp file and I could still hear all parts of the track #2 (normal volume 3 times, zero volume 3 times, normal volume 3 times). I then did a variant where I applied the volume nodes in the exact same fashion to track #2 as was done to track #1 where the volume nodes reflect what I was saying on the track. So I did a (file, save as, .wav) and as hoped during the portion where I was saying "zero volume" there was no sound.

Test #2:
I highlighted the wave form of one of the 2 tracks in the above Test #1 and I right clicked on it and selected Audio Effects then selected reverb. I chose one of the drop down reverb settings and choosing it adjusted the 5 individual settings at the top. I clicked on process. It applied the settings to the highlighted track. I then chose "File, Save as, .wav". The reverb could be heard during the playback of the .wav and also the middle section where I say "zero volume" had no sound indicating the volume nodes had been applied to both tracks when saved to .wav.

Thanks guys for all your help. It seems that much to my relief I probably will never need to use anything but Real Band for recording the jams we do and I can focus most of my attention at being a better guitar player. I probably won't post any more here and if I do it will be after April 28th. I have 18 songs to brush up on in 2 weeks and the target is no more than 3 errors on any of (melody, rhythm, comps, improvising). That isn't easy to do when you make a major change to your technique which typically won't be mastered for a year. Need to focus :-) Having said that at least I now know I can overdub with RealBand to fix the recordings so at least they are up to the standard I set :-) Life is good :-)

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 05:06 AM)
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#532740 - 04/14/19 07:32 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Gain nodes are supported (for audio tracks and DXi/VSTi tracks). Gain nodes allow for an increase or decrease in dB without the volume slider moving up/down during playback. (Note: These major features were added in mid 2016, and enhanced in 2017.)
The manual really needs to be updated and totally gone through to address these issues. There are a number of these types of issues that that we figured out before but after 3 years we've worked around them and have forgotten the details.
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#532764 - 04/14/19 11:25 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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I didn't try "File, Save As". I'll have to do that also. I guess that makes seven ways to do it. Oy!
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#532774 - 04/14/19 01:57 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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silvertones Offline
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JF you asked the real question "which ones are by design to not work"
Paraphrased
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#532781 - 04/14/19 04:16 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Originally Posted By: jford
I didn't try "File, Save As". I'll have to do that also. I guess that makes seven ways to do it. Oy!


You don't really need to now John. Del and my test answered the question and I marked the thread as (resolved) almost immediately.

Your other tests involving other features that are beyond my daw knowledge level made me think of a joke which was my original response. It was a joke poking fun at myself essentially. I decided maybe it is best I remove it since someone's post suggested it may have been misinterpreted.

I also modified my post regarding my simple test. I created that simple test because my first tests were done with the guitar and poorly thought out leading to way too much time to get the test completed not to mention that I still was not 100% sure there was a problem. The simple test was far better and could have been made even shorter now that I think about it. What is that old saying? "KIS".


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:31 AM)
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#532805 - 04/15/19 04:26 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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The answers to my Audacity Questions.
https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=104601&p=368031#p367872
I am guessing Audacity is no match for RealBand but it might be useful as a backup and interesting to learn (for me at least).


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:29 AM)
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#532822 - 04/15/19 06:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Troll
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#532827 - 04/15/19 07:27 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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I have several comments that may help John Bowles solve his recordings issues that don't appear to have been addressed or completely discussed in the thread yet.


When you import a file into RB, if it was recorded as a mono track on your USB, before you import it into RB, Right click or double click in the Song Title area of the track you want to import the audio to (this will initially read - Untitled) and change the default selection from Stereo to Mono. A mono file is best processed as a mono file unless you intend to apply stereo effects to the track. There's a third choice to change the default from audio to midi as well if the track is intended to receive midi.


What has been pointed out but not made clear is that with John's jam recording workflow, after importing his audio into RB, John should be mixing his tracks using volume automation rather than the default gain automation. Gain and volume appear to be similar (and they are) but they are intended for completely separate operation and purpose in a mixer. John, I think you are not getting the results you expect or desire because you are using the wrong tool for the function. I didn't have to do your tests to know you aren't getting your desired results. It's not likely a RB defect but even if there's a defect, you avoid the situation by using the correct tool. Gain and volume operation and purpose differences also apply to your physical 16 channel mixer or for that matter, any mixer whether it's analog or digital and also any DAW you use. Gain and volume are always two separate and different functions that are both essential to quality recording or live broadcast. Having proper gain and volume automation have nothing to do with whether any specific RB save sequence retains the settings or not. Apparently, RB can do either dependent on which save sequence one chooses and the proper sequence should be chosen by the need to either have the automation included or if it's desired to retain a copy of unedited audio.

I have found it a good best practice when editing volume automation to every so often and always before saving to Rt click on the automation line and from the drop down menu, select Cleanup Nodes. It's also a good best practice to do a Save File procedure after every few edits of any type so in the event of a malfunction you only have a few things to redo.


Hope this helps out a bit.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (04/15/19 08:17 AM)
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#532861 - 04/15/19 10:36 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Charlie. I copied your post to the list of things I read over before I start mixing each monthly jam. That is the best time to read it and learn it (learn by doing). It may take a few mix sessions before I retain what I learn :-) Regards, John


Edited by bowlesj (04/15/19 11:32 AM)
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#532948 - 04/16/19 07:06 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I was curious if the 2016 RealBand user manual had anything on volume automation. All these user manual key word searches find nothing. "Volume nodes", "Gain Nodes", "nodes", "volume automation", "automation".

From a computer systems analyst's perspective I was looking at the fact that you need to pull down the volume node area to see the drop down box. It probably would be possible to have that drop down for "volume nodes" out where is it not hidden away at all (the extra long entry could be a hover over popup). Had I have seen that drop down box this thread may not have existed.

Maybe PGmusic has fixed these shortcomings already or maybe that is something to consider. An enhanced user experience may mean more sales. Having said that a fair number of people on the "Audacity Forum" have seen the RealBand gain node screen and that does not hurt either. I reported the solution back to that forum and the fact that the gain nodes issue has been fixed. If those audacity forum users like the idea of using BIAB for a jam group and they check into BIAB and Real band they won't be looking at my 2016 version.

One last item which is indirectly related and probably more of interest to PGmusic. Some jazz charts are a bit confusing. I am now using the BIAB chord screen for the chart clarification image and also to give them the chords to songs when they do not have the fake book so they can join in to do rhythm and solos. Part of the reason for this is if the members see the BIAB screen they are more likely to get interested in buying BIAB and if they do they can simply download the BIAB file from my website (the exact file I use during the jams when we don't have a drummer which is most times at present). This ideas is the exact same idea as the Audacity Forum users seeing the BIAB screen. Some of those forum users might be located close to me and interested in my Jazz Jams Group.


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:27 AM)
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#532950 - 04/16/19 07:27 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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John Bowles (and others) -

This forum post from 2016 goes back to where this discussion all started.

Don't know if it helps, but it does provide some historical perspective.


Edited by jford (04/16/19 07:34 AM)
Edit Reason: Updated URL link
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#532952 - 04/16/19 07:29 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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I got access denied when I click on that link????? Why? No matter. I really should be practicing for that April 28th jam. It is all good now :-) If I get some free time this summer I may check into upgrading to 2019 and with both volume nodes and gain nodes available I may be able to use (learn by doing) as a way to understand why RealBand has both Volume Nodes and Gain Nodes :-) At this point ignorance is bliss :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:35 AM)
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#532953 - 04/16/19 07:35 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Try it again, John, and see if it works now.
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#532954 - 04/16/19 07:39 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Still no access. Maybe you have to be a senior member. It reminds me of my lack of knowledge on BIAB and Real band. I got this idea I would get the posts emailed to me. I did that. I tried answering a question and quickly realized I know very little about a lot of this stuff and I have no place trying to help people here. it is much like My joke I had put in that someone misinterpreted. I am a jazz guitarist and programmer analyst. I really have no real need to become a sound engineer and certainly no time (I practice 5 to 9 hours a day for jams for almost 3 weeks solid 7 days a week and I should practice more). In my mind Real Band is the best thing next to sliced bread (now that I know volume nodes work that is) :-)

I help in the ways I can. I point out programming design weaknesses and documentation flaws. My lack of knowledge about daw stuff puts me at an advantage here (at times possibly).


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 07:58 AM)
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#532962 - 04/16/19 08:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Sorry, just realized it is from one of the beta forums, which has limited access. My apologies.

It talked about the change to incorporate both overall volume change along expression change nodes on a track. It was implemented in RealBand 2016 (your version) as I understand, so that's the first version to have it.

The sad part is that I find no reference to the nodes feature and how to use it at all in the RealBand 2019 user manual.
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#532975 - 04/16/19 09:53 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks John. I am so glad I upgraded from 2012 at the time volume & gain nodes were implemented. Such a great feature and now that I know about it I would not live without it...lol.

From what you are saying it seems like the original video I watched below is the only documentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=3s

So Charlie has me curious and I think back about a comment I made after Del posted (to google search gain versus volume). So here it is with a comment below.

Google: Music Gain versus Volume
Quote:
Both gain and levels refer to the loudness of the audio. However, gain is the input level of the clips and volume is the output. In recording audio, gain is the first control that the microphone signal goes through in a mixer while levels are adjusted after that.


So I think this might explains Charlie's comment. If gain is the input side then it is changing the input to the track. Volume is the output side so this is likely the output to the .wav during "file Save-as". So maybe (and this makes me laugh...lol) you should go back and do a test of "File save-as" with gain-nodes after all with your version to see if it actually does get passed through to the .wav file. In my mind it should but I am confused now. I am not sure. It is just a curiosity thing at this point. I went back and checked Del's post and he said that gain nodes adjustments do not get passed to the .wav file with "file save-as" during the 2017 version either. Actually It just hit me. Charlie is probably correct! See next post as to why.

About my simple test. Here is why I made it up.
My first test was with the guitar. I played along for a while playing a variety of chords. So I went back and adjusted the gain nodes but not that much. I had so much trouble listening to it waiting for the volume change which never came and I wasn't sure if it had changed because I had not adjusted it much. It as a waste of time so I developed my simple test. A better test than the fix I posted would be three words. (Normal, zero, normal) with a gap between them giving one some room to adjust the nodes. If a mike is not available three notes (High-pitch, low-pitch, high-pitch). The recording should take no more than 10 seconds to record and the node adjustment should be to zero of course. So I made up the instructions to help others avoid my mistake then I later documented them step by step for some who might be more green than I am. The easier it was the greater the chance that someone would do the test.



Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 05:49 PM)
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#532987 - 04/16/19 10:24 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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Topic #1: For the reason below I am betting gain nodes do not write out to the .wav file with (FILE, save as) even in RealBand 2019. However if I remember correctly some said their do?

So I discovered with my anolog mixer I use at the jams that I am best to turn the gain up for the drum mikes but have the output faders fully off so the drums does not come out the P.A. The reason is the drums are so loud. The idea was to point a PA speaker at the drummer and have him adjust his rock drumming down to jazz levels or at least the two of us will work together to come up with a compromise. Having the PA speaker equal distance to his ear as his drums are to his ear would help him know how loud to play. I would have a special mike out front of us so I hopefully could hear the PA to drums mix such that I could be better informed as to what is going on. So back to the topic I discovered that I had to have the gain settings up in order for the drums to be recorded on some of the 16 output tracks of the mixer which would go to the RealBand daw. So that explains Charlie's comment. The faders feed the mix output and the gain feeds the individual tracks. The Individual tracks are fully dry because it is expected that you will do a second mix with them using a DAW. Therefor only the volume node adjustments should it be written out to the mix (to the File/Save-As .wav file).


Topic #2: Observations of the nodes video:
I am listening to this video again (link below) and he calls it "Volume Automation". He does not show adjusting it from gain-nodes to volume-nodes. I also checked the colour. The video shows light blue which is the volume-nodes. The gain-nodes are green. Not only that he expands the node area and it does not show the drop down where you can switch between the volume-nodes and the gain-nodes. So this means that this video is suggesting that volume-nodes existed before gain-nodes existed and not only that for some reason the default setting for RealBand 2016 is the gain-nodes. If I change any track to gain-nodes and save the file it remembers it and changes the node type to gain nodes on all tracks if I am not wrong. No doubt they have been to busy to document this properly. Another video needs to be created since this one is older than my 2016 version and some of the menu drop downs I have are missing from the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=3s


Edited by bowlesj (04/16/19 05:42 PM)
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#533099 - 04/17/19 05:00 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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Using a "20" search I found the primary test entries to this thread to try and see if any of the tests were with gain-nodes. It seems like none were with gain-nodes except my test and Del's comments. The primary question remains. Does 2019 default to gain-nodes or volume-nodes and do the 2019 version gain-nodes write to the .wav file during "file, save-as". I quoted all the entries I found and entered a few comments which are not really all that important. You might want to read them if you have unlimited time otherwise I would not bother. PgMusic might want to (set the RealBand install default to volume-nodes) or (documented the features) or (at least not hide the drop down toggle) - ideally all 3 of these ideas.

Rharv
Quote:
No difference in perceived or visible volume.
If it helps it was done in RB 2019-3.

My Comment: I am guessing Rharv was using volume-nodes rather than gain-nodes and that explains the successful result. In my case they shipped RealBand defaulting to gain-nodes and we were not yet aware I was using gain-nodes.

My Comment: I reread Rharv's method of testing after a good nights sleep with a clear mind (to much for me at the time - tired, minded clocked). Smart way to test. My objective was different. It was to make it as simple as possible for people of limited time like myself or more green than myself hoping the ease of my test would get some more info. Charlie's test would be better for testing for nuance inaccuracies.

silvertones
Quote:
Works perfectly in 2019. Has always worked perfectly. I rendered the file and opened it in VLC media player and it was perfect.

My comment: Again I suspect it was with volume-nodes and current thread participants were not yet aware I was using the default gain-nodes for my version of 2016. We had not noticed the colour difference (volume-blue, gain-green).

jford
Quote:
Notebook tests were done in 2019.


My Comment: If I remember correctly jford tested with volume-nodes. He did not test "file save-as" but I suspect it would be successful. I suspect testing gain-nodes using "file save-as" would not write to the node adjustments to the .wav file. I say this because of Charlie's comments and my later thinking more about what he said and my jam mixing experiences.

Del
Quote:
I have seen this problem before when I was first trying to use the 'nodes' to adjust levels with RB2017 ver7.

I used the Gain Nodes in db as you are doing and had all kinds of trouble with it not saving the set level. I contacted tech support in October of 2017 and they verified the problem. At that time they instructed me to use Volume nodes instead of Gain nodes. And that fixed the problem for me.

I'm now running RB2018 and the Volume nodes work perfect with RB2018 and Windows 7. It may be worth a try to use the Volume Nodes instead of Gain Nodes. The volume node levels range from 0 to 127 max.


My comment: To bad Del didn't see my post first :-) It would have saved a lot of confusion and time. Even better if PgMusic set the default to volume-nodes or documented the features or at least did not hide the drop down toggle (ideally all 3 of these ideas).

Del
Quote:
Apparently the 'Gain Node' issue I reported in 2017 is still hanging around for some users. Using volume nodes has worked flawlessly for me and I use it in most of my songs.


My comment: I suspect the problem is lack of documentation and setting the factory reset default to gain-nodes so people don't realize they are not using volume-nodes. It may be that they have changed the factory default to volume-nodes at some point after the 2017 version (unknown at this point).

silvertones
Quote:
Gain nodes are supported (for audio tracks and DXi/VSTi tracks). Gain nodes allow for an increase or decrease in dB without the volume slider moving up/down during playback. (Note: These major features were added in mid 2016, and enhanced in 2017.)
The manual really needs to be updated and totally gone through to address these issues. There are a number of these types of issues that that we figured out before but after 3 years we've worked around them and have forgotten the details.


My comment: after (looking up the difference between gain and volume on google and working with my anolog mixer I use for the jams) it makes sense that the gain-nodes do not adjust the faders/sliders since they are used for mixing to the output. To the best of my understanding gain-nodes are used to adjust the input to one track to get max input without distortion .

jford
Quote:
The sad part is that I find no reference to the nodes feature and how to use it at all in the RealBand 2019 user manual.


My Comment: I agree. I figure they are too busy and it does not surprise me because they have a great pair of products. I could not do what I am doing without them.





Edited by bowlesj (04/17/19 05:27 AM)
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#533142 - 04/17/19 09:22 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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The short answer to your last post is to first say the overall subject of gain and volume is more extensive than we will likely discuss here on the forum. That being said, my response to "Even better if PgMusic set the default to volume-nodes or documented the features or at least did not hide the drop down toggle (ideally all 3 of these ideas).", when gain automation is needed, it is always set first before any volume automation is needed. Many people, myself included, usually have a gain setting, not necessarily a specific value but a value within a small range variance that gain is set to insure a consistent audio level and headroom we're use to in our workflow. Gain can be set for the overall track and also to fine adjust peaks and valleys of the audio wav form to minimize needing extreme compression. But that is done before any other processing or adding effects is done. In my opinion, PGMusic has the default correct. On your mixer, the gain or trim knob is physically located on the board before the fader and the default setting, although accessed using a drop down menu rather than a physical fader, is in line with that layout. Documentation is like cow bell, we always need more. DAW's are famous for their hidden and drop down menus so that may be a viable update in a future upgrade.
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#533154 - 04/17/19 11:54 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Charlie, makes sense to me and after having thought about your prior post I am guessing Gain-nodes still do not write to the .wav file and maybe that is the way it should be. My burning curiosity led to that last post :-) since my problem has long since been resolved.

Moving the drop down to where it can be seen would be possible (regarding ability to fit) if just "Volume nodes" or "Gain Nodes" was included. There would still be room for the coloring when a track is highlighted. A hover over popup of added info would help and as far as I know this could include one or more links to more extensive reading (possibly web pages) for the info you suggest.

Regarding help I also agree in that ultimately experimenting is needed to learn (learn by doing I think most people learn best from). I will give an example which is kind of extreme but it really drives this point home. As a programmer I have learned varying amounts of 17 programming languages (a tiny bit to almost everything one can know about the language). Regarding the latter, for some reason at about age 44 I really got into the Unix shell scripting languages (3 of them). I went out and got Linux and I bought a book for each language and would read them in the morning for 1.5 hours and list experiments to conduct at night (anything I read would create a new experiment - very thorough - I made absolutely sure I missed nothing). I spent 3 hours a night after my full time programming work day for about 1.5 years 7 days a week plowing through the experiments. I learned more from the experiments than from the book. Way more and way better than reading could ever teach me. I would love to have the time to do this with BIAB and RB but in would be a big waste of time for my limited uses. These days I use "just in time learning" for most of my needs learning only what I need to know and much of the learning is from experimenting. In a way what I did was almost bad for the company. When I left no one could handle the Unix scripts I created because they had every trick in the book. They had to hire a Unix specialist to handle the scripts.

The fact that people generally use "Just in time learning" circles back to the 2nd paragraph. PGmusic I am sure realizes people are busy and PGmusic's challenge is to make the product as easy to learn as possible. Tricks like fitting a drop down box differently is probably no more than an 1 to 3 hours work if it has been programmed in a modular fashion and the payback would be significant. Had I have seen that drop down my experimenting nature would have led me to the solution without the need for this thread. I actually only go to a forum if I am really stuck. I get annoyed at myself when I can't figure it out on my own :-) For me life is like a big learning game. I am 64 and never seem to tire of it.

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/17/19 12:03 PM)
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#533178 - 04/17/19 03:40 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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rharv Offline
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You are correct, my Nodes were indeed set to Volume (guess it's my habit).
However the method described of using some hidden drop down seemed really weird to me, because I don't ever remember doing that.
I simply right-click on the Nodes line .. see image below.
I had to sit down in front of it to do it so I remembered, it's just become habit here.
Sorry I wasn't more helpful earlier on. I sometimes move projects between DAWs or locations (which can mean a different version of RB/PT) so I guess it's part of my work flow that once I use Nodes I make sure they are the common Volume Node other DAWs and locations will recognize.

And thanks for the compliment on my testing method. I gave it a little thought on how to most fairly test and not allow a different player/settings to affect the outcome.


Attachments
right-click.jpg


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#533198 - 04/17/19 08:24 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Rharv, During the course of the thread I finally saw the menu you show but I didn't look long enough to realize I could change the node type there. Your message got me to do a little experiment to see if it retains the node change and it does. Of course you already knew that :-) It comes back to my post about learning by experimenting. I believe we all do it a lot more experimental learning than we realize. I am think PGmusic may have changed the install default to volume where as my install default is gain. I say this because the video shows volume nodes so they may have realized having the video show volume nodes but the program default to gain nodes was causing confusion. People like Charlie can always change it to default to whatever is best for them. People like myself won't even know to look.

You are welcome regarding the compliment. The first time I read your post I was tired and I could not absorb it. Only when I came at it with a good sleep could I learn it and realize it was a good idea. I apologize if I seemed critical the first time.

The people on this forum are way ahead of me in a lot of areas. I thought I had learned a lot until I decided to get the posts send to my email which I look at often. I realized that most of the questions I didn't understand let alone being able to answer them. I tried to help with one but wasn't very helpful so I took myself off. I appreciate being able to ask a question if I get really stuck. I probably won't get that advanced. Most of my learning these days is guitar related.

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/17/19 08:32 PM)
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#533233 - 04/18/19 06:44 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I left myself a note for my monthly mix down sessions. Specifically.

Quote:
Think of (gain-nodes as track-gain-nodes) and (volume nodes as mix-volume-nodes). This will help you understand why their settings (are or are-not) written out to the .wav files in all the various ways possible (the ways jford did tests on + the File-save-as...).


Regarding the idea of listing all the different .wav file output results, my jam keeps me very busy and at present I don't really see the need to list them all so I may never do this. Maybe jford would want to some day since he has it almost 1/2 done already. It essentially would be a duplication of what he did but with a 2 way break down (a row-column grid) to show the difference between the save to .wav for the node types side by side and of course it would need to include "File - save-as". Some people may find this very useful. This is the kind of experiments I was doing when I was learning UNIX shell scripting inside out and backwards. If someone does this for the whole BIAB and RealBand manual I recommend applying to PGmusic for a job :-)





Edited by bowlesj (04/18/19 06:58 AM)
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#533241 - 04/18/19 07:15 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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silvertones Offline
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The thing is there is no gain control in a DAW. Gain is handled through the sound card. The gain mode was meant for midi tracks cc11.
It's like that extra volume knob that has no purpose.


Edited by silvertones (04/18/19 07:16 AM)
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#533296 - 04/18/19 11:01 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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One way to think of the difference between volume (CC&) and gain (CC11) nodes is to visualize buckets.

Volume (CC7) is the equivalent of bucket size. I can have one quart, one gallon, three gallons, five or seven gallon buckets. In all cases the maximum amount of liquid I can pour into each bucket is limited by the size of the bucket. I can have one gallon of liquid but I will never fit all the liquid into the one quart bucket.

Gain (CC11) reflects the amount of liquid held inside a bucket. The amount of liquid inside a bucket can range between 0 for empty to 127 for full but the amount of liquid can not exceed the bucket's capacity when it is full.

Volume controls track level in a mix. Gain controls track dynamic level.
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#533306 - 04/18/19 11:55 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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silvertones Offline
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Well said.
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#533394 - 04/18/19 08:39 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Jim Fogle]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks guys, you both confirmed one thing. I am way behind some of the people on this forum :-) Make that a ...lol. Silvertones is easy to accept even though I don't know the details. Jim yours I have to try again in the morning after some sleep :-) Below is how I understand it all.

Gain:
I think of gain and volume as things from my electronics class in high school (not that I got all that far into electronics mind you). In my mind one feeds an input into the analog mixer and your gain is the first stage of amplification. If you set it to high the lights go from green to yellow then red and you get distortion (not good). So when I record a jam I tell them to play something fairly loud and I set it to clip into the yellow so I get a good signal without distortion. This signal is from my understanding the one that goes out to the USB drive I record with and then ends up going into RealBand. I have never used the compressor knobs. I am guessing if I hear distortion in a lot of recordings I should start using it. Maybe I should put compression on vocals.

Volume:
Getting back to the Analog mixer the faders are the volume feeding into the mix. This is just another level of amplification (another amplifier stage) and it feeds to the master fader (I do not have right left sub master faders). The master fader once again is another level of a final stage amp that feeds to the amps in the power speakers. At all levels you do not want to feed too much signal into the next bigger amp in the chain.

So here is where I was unsure.
So as I said in the gain Paragraph those gain amps had a parallel tap that feeds the 16 tracks (THE 16 .WAVE FILES). So I have to assume I have a fairly strong signal most times on those .wav files but not a distorted signal so I should have no need for the gain-nodes in RealBand (even if they did something that is but silvertones is saying they don't which makes it easier on the gray matter between my ears). So all I need to be concerned about is the volume for the mix in RealBand (the volume nodes). I just adjust things to make the mix sound good to my ear. In the end if it all sounds pretty good to my ear then I guess that is all that matters :-) Ignorance is bliss I guess :-)

John




Edited by bowlesj (04/18/19 08:44 PM)
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#533442 - 04/19/19 05:44 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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<<< Gain is the first stage of amplification.>>>

Yes. Too high causes distortion. Too little gain is also bad because it can allow the noise floor to become audible in your mix. The noise floor is the hiss, hum, buzz, clicks, pops and crackles generated from your hardware, electrical noise and equipment attached to the signal chain. It is inherent in every mix. The noise floor is one reason why adding a high pass filter to a track almost always improves the sound quality of your recording even if you do nothing else. If you hear distortion, don't compress, correct the gain.

<<< Volume: Faders are just another level of amplification (another amplifier stage) and it feeds to the master fader.>>>

Not exactly. First, a fader does not always amplify the signal. Faders can also decrease signal level or have no effect what so ever on the signal level. A better understanding of mixer faders are they balance the levels between the different tracks while at the same time, setting the optimum signal path level for the track. The numbers and markers on a fader track are very important to indicate what the fader is doing, amplifying or decreasing level or having no effect on the signal and to what degree and intensity that effect is. -0- or -U- is unity which means the fader has no effect on the audio signal passing through that channel. Notice also that channel unity is not located at the extreme top of the channel but around 3/4 of the fader run. The area above and just below the unity mark is your headroom and by design, the best area for your faders to be set on a mix. Gain is adjusted to avoid extreme settings of the faders. Where the audio signal travels from the fader is determined by your mixer routing. There are many places on a mixer to tap into the signal chain. This is what the terms pre-fader and post-fader refer to, tap point to reroute the audio signal. Every component, plugs, jacks, cables, hardware, Fx devices, amplifiers, knobs and faders have an effect on the audio signal quality. It can be so small it's inaudible or it can be a loud hum or buzz. No matter, it's all cumulative. Devices that can add or decrease the audio signal level should be adjusted most times as close to unity as possible so as to not add or decrease the signal but to maintain its level near unity which is neither increasing or decreasing. Unity on a mixer is by design the point of maintaining the most accurate original quality of the audio signal. Increasing the volume level or decreasing the volume level is also cumulative. Varying the signal between devices and across routing degrades the signal. Proper gain staging in any DAW or mixer is important to help maintain a proper balance between tracks and also for each individual tracks so the fader can be set within an acceptable range near unity where the signal path is in its ideal or closest to ideal location. With that said, you are correct thinking if the mix sounds good to your ears, that's what matters most.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (04/19/19 05:46 AM)
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#533460 - 04/19/19 08:07 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Charlie, your post is very useful. I am copying this one to a different location (my checklist before a jam exactly where I have a note to run all the PA equipment of the same power to avoid ground loops - red highlighting things I have not been doing or had wrong). Regards, John

My biggest issue with the jams at the moment is the USB drive used to record the 16 tracks out of the mixer.
It has a separate power supply as recommended in the Mixer manual. I noticed that during the mixer test of the drive instead of being high speed it is now recording as medium (good enough). During that jam it was fine. However during the last jam it was cutting out big chunks of the recordings on some of the earlier songs (the first 5 or so songs of the 13 songs recorded). It works fine for data backup. So I am thinking I will get another one the same but 100% dedicated to recording the jam only. The idea here is the final MP3 mix downs will be put on a different drive so that if the dedicated recording drive starts to skip or even have indication it is slowing down I will reformat it hoping that fixes the problem. Being dedicated nothing on it needs to be kept and the formatting will reduce the need for the read/write head to move that far giving it hopefully higher speed and less chance of skipping. I am thinking I won't even erase the old tracks since as soon as I erase tracks it will cause the head to start jumping around to free space. If I just keep adding tracks until it is very close to full that may reduce the number of times I have to do a format. After writing this last sentence it occurred to me that this may in fact be why it cut out on the earlier songs of the jam (Maybe once the write head laid down enough data it no longer needed to skip around to find locations to record on and it was able to record contiguous flow).


Edited by bowlesj (04/19/19 08:35 AM)
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#533539 - 04/19/19 05:48 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
One way to think of the difference between volume (CC&) and gain (CC11) nodes is to visualize buckets.

Volume (CC7) is the equivalent of bucket size. I can have one quart, one gallon, three gallons, five or seven gallon buckets. In all cases the maximum amount of liquid I can pour into each bucket is limited by the size of the bucket. I can have one gallon of liquid but I will never fit all the liquid into the one quart bucket.

Gain (CC11) reflects the amount of liquid held inside a bucket. The amount of liquid inside a bucket can range between 0 for empty to 127 for full but the amount of liquid can not exceed the bucket's capacity when it is full.

Volume controls track level in a mix. Gain controls track dynamic level.


While all this is true I have also noticed RB using a different CC for Node GAIN changes than either CC7 or CC11 when viewed in the Event list.
This setting may be something proprietary for RB when using the Gain option.
Hopefully others see the same thing when using the Event List on a track where Gain Nodes are used (instead of Volume Nodes). The CC# appears as 102 instead of 7 or 11 .. at least here it does
.. unless I'm doing it wrong, which has happened before!


Attachments
RB-CC--Number.jpg


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#533557 - 04/20/19 03:33 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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PGMusic would have to answer this one. CC 102-119 are undefined controls (which really means vendors use them for proprietary controls).
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#533652 - 04/20/19 03:13 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: bowlesj]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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The MIDI standard leaves a lot of controller numbers "undefined".

Presently the following MIDI controllers are undefined: CC# 3, CC# 9, CC# 14, CC# 15, CC# 20 through CC# 31, CC# 35, CC# 41, CC# 46, CC# 47, CC# 52 through CC# 63, CC# 85 through CC# 90 and CC# 102 through CC# 119. That means of the 128 controller numbers 56, or almost 44 percent, are undefined.

PG Music has a good overview of MIDI and MIDI controllers available +++ HERE +++ .
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#533715 - 04/21/19 03:10 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks for your midi overview link Jim. Due to lack of time I am not sure if I will ever get one but I have often thought I might get a Fishman TriplePlay Wireless Midi pickup system for recording my guitar solos (during the live jams which use BIAB) or (even during my practice while using BIAB). I could get the solo notation without having to transcribe. I think the software that comes with TriplePlay for doing this is called Progression (trying to verify that now). The biggest question I have about that is whether I can use the same computer for it as I am using for sending out the BIAB backing tracks. I have an I5 notebook running windows 7 pro. Maybe someone knows if this will work.


I guess this video confirms progression by notation music comes with it.


Edited by bowlesj (04/21/19 03:59 AM)
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#533801 - 04/21/19 04:17 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 08/20/11
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Jim Fogle Offline
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Rharv,

I remember CC#102 has previously come up in forum conversations. A search indicates PG Music changed how nodes works in the 2016 release. +++ HERE +++ is a conversation that indicates the CC# was changed from CC# 87 to CC# 102.

Bowlesj,

The Fishman Triple Play has consistently received excellent reviews since it was introduced. Midi data is transmitted from the guitar to a USB receiver over wi-fi. One forum user has about every MIDI tool invented and he likes it. The good: Latency (the time from when a string is plucked to when the audio is heard)is too small (way less than 10 milliseconds) to notice. It is pretty accurate. The bad: Cost ($399 US). Has to be installed on a guitar. Requires a computer.

Another solution is +++ Jam Orgin +++ . It also has received rave reviews. The good: No hardware, it is a software solution. It works with any program as a VSTi so any program that accepts VSTs can use it. Literally thousands of sounds and/or effects are built-in. Cost is $99 US.
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#533829 - 04/21/19 08:12 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Jim. I will check into Jam Orgin shortly after my next jam on the 28th. John
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#533909 - 04/22/19 04:31 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Rharv,

I remember CC#102 has previously come up in forum conversations. A search indicates PG Music changed how nodes works in the 2016 release. +++ HERE +++ is a conversation that indicates the CC# was changed from CC# 87 to CC# 102.


Thanks for digging up the old thread. Good find.

Sometimes MIDI is more complicated than it needs to be.
Even CC87 is undefined.
At some point previous to this they were CC7 or 11, but that doesn't really matter now.
Knowing they can be changed after the fact may still help some users.
Data Filter for the win (again)!
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#534018 - 04/23/19 06:33 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: rharv]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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It was never was revealed if the current 2019 version of RealBand writes out the gain-node adjustments to the .wav file with "file, save-as". If it does not it would probably save PGmusic support costs if the program's "file save-as" routine detected gain node adjustments and gave a popup warning that it does not save the adjustments. It probably should be a popup that can be switched off. It probably should indicate how to change the node type and how to change the node type default as well. This idea is probably a better idea than my original suggestion of moving the drop down box from hits hidden location since some new users may not notice it.
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#534043 - 04/24/19 03:39 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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It occurred to me that the above idea needs an adjustment. Specifically if the user wanted (volume nodes so they could get the adjustments out to the mix with "file save-as") the message is a bit late and they have to redo their work. So the message really needs to pop up when they place their first gain-node (only the first one during each new recording being worked on). This is the perfect time to save the user significant aggravation. And clearly this message needs to have a check box on it so the user can shut it off once they know. Since it would only popup on application of the first gain-node (during each new recording) it may be that they do not want it shut off (not that significant of an annoyance).


Edited by bowlesj (04/24/19 11:05 AM)
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#534064 - 04/24/19 06:03 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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The biggest mistake that is clouding the issue is to compare a DAW to an analog or digital console.
The first stage of amplification is the sound card.The gain stage is the sound card. Mo
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#534095 - 04/24/19 11:21 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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I adjusted my prior post to indicate the popup should occur the first time adjusting gain nodes for each recording (not the first time one uses gain nodes). The shut it off checkbox removes the popup permanently unless a factory reset is run. Ideally that popup should point to some help for more info.

Regarding DAW (gain versus volume) I did a Google search (Daw gain versus volume) and found this link.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/gain-staging-your-daw-software
I don't have time to study it at the moment.

In my case I do not think I have had any track on any recording distort at all due to too much gain (too loud a track coming in from the disk drive to the computer). I am more likely to have too low a gain. However in this situation (once I get the main fader levels set to compensate) the quality is easily good enough for my needs. I won't be attempting to make money at this within any of my 9 lives :-) Using volume nodes solved my issue. As I prepare for my next mix session coming Monday or Tuesday I can't help remember the bad experience and Del's comment that others have had this experience with the 2017 version. Being a programmer/analyst solutions pop in my head. I am in a habit of writing all ideas down. This is the place to write these ideas.


Edited by bowlesj (04/24/19 11:35 AM)
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#534123 - 04/24/19 03:57 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Originally Posted By: bowlesj
It was never was revealed if the current 2019 version of RealBand writes out the gain-node adjustments to the .wav file with "file, save-as". If it does not ...


Here it does not, if set to Gain. (recent 2019 version)
If set to Volume it does.

Being a programmer myself I see the solution a little different.
Most people use the Merge option, since it takes many more other things into account than 'Save As'
(otherwise why have both if they do the same thing?)

My idea;
If Sav As Wav is invoked, have the app then check for Gain Nodes .. and if they exist, offer an option to treat the Gain Nodes as Volume Nodes so they get incorporated in the wav. Then have it do the math on the Nodes (CC change number and value adjustment) then go ahead and save it.
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#534159 - 04/24/19 08:00 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes) [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Sounds like a good idea Rharv. I will leave myself a note to learn about this merge option.
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