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#532464 - 04/11/19 10:58 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 8016
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Yes it should be working for you. I looked back in the RB Update history all the way back to 2009 and nothing mentioned abouted fixing nodes issues except minor typo stuff, nor do I remember anything during Beta testing as far as I remember.
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#532474 - 04/11/19 12:09 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Maybe there is something deeper in the idea that it has something to do with Midi.

Just curious. Did you try my actual test which takes the volume to zero with comments in the recording saying the volume is zero at that time making the playback in wav such that you should not hear these comments. On the contrary small adjustments that are typical with a recording are easy to miss if you are not looking for them. This is why I did probably 12+15+9 = 36 recordings and never noticed it until I made a fairly larger adjustment. Actually the real reason I noticed it to be honest was because I was fixing my terrible guitar playing at the jam because I had no warm-up and I also changed my technique and I am listening unusually carefully to it. In short I have become an extreme fuss buss as of late regarding these recordings. I had made maybe a -9 drop in one node and a +3 rise in another node and the difference was just barely enough for me to notice it and dig farther. If all one is doing is +3 and -3 and one is not unusually sensitive one won't notice it. You really do have to take the node to absolute zero to make the test easy. Why make it hard so you have to strain to listen to it and spend a lot of time on it? Makes no sense. My test takes maybe 5 minutes and it is a no Brianer to know it is not working (as it should be).

Not only that support told me they can do remote fixing if it is a serious. If they did this test they could run my test and be 100% sure it is happening (actually I could send the .seq and mp3 files through regular email so they would know 100% for sure it is happening by recognizing my voice on both recordings). Again 5 minutes to do this test and I already have the .seq file to save that work so my estimate is probably about right. Why not? It should not be happening. Why is it happening? Valuable info for them I would think.

Lastly once I decided to look for a different product I will install it on my 3rd machine to see if I get the same result. This assumes that I do not loose a BIAB activation since I am happy with BIAB. Three machines with the same bad result? That is highly unlikely to happen right? Speaking of BIAB as an aside I have had BIAB song file downloads for "Jazz Jam Club" members for a while but I just introduced BIAB chord window images as a way for them to get the chords from any of the 7 Hal Leaonard song books I have if I put a song out on the Jam Schedule that is not in a more common song book. There are a few reasons to use the BIAB chord window image for this but one is to encourage them to buy BIAB (the hope being if they see all the buttons they might get interested).

Looking for a different product with my list of 15 items should not take to long. Make up a list of 15 requirements, send a boat load of emails out to forums and sales people. Assign a weekend to each positive response (sorted best to worst of course). I should have my answer for each product by the end of the weekend. If need be I will do it in the summer when the jamming dies off.

Back to tax. Got to get it done tonight :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 01:43 PM)
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#532498 - 04/11/19 06:19 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 5999
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Registered: 08/20/11
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Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
John,

It doesn't read like you're using many DAW like features so you may be able to get by with a computer based recording program like +++ Audacity +++. Audacity works with audio only, there is no MIDI involved. So it's essentially a computer based digital audio recorder. The program can record as many tracks at one time as your audio interface and drivers allow. Best of all, the program is FREE!
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#532501 - 04/11/19 07:02 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Hi Jim,

I have an old version of audacity. I don't really know my version very well so maybe the latest version could match RealBand. Without your input I would no have considered it but thanks for the idea. IF I do send out my requirements I will include them.

I just got an idea. I could send my RealBand sequential file out to my club members and ask them to read it in and use the save as to create the wav file and find out the result and their system specs and real band version etc. Maybe I can find one that gets my problem with win-7 service pack 1 and another with win-7 service pack? that does not. If that is the solution I will have enough reason to put up with a weekend without that computer while it slowly gets the service pack installed. IF someone has win-7 with service pack #1 and it works on their machine then at least I know that is not the cause.

Maybe Micrsoft will provide a download the the service pack only when they stop supporting Win7. I could download it to My old WinXP machine which I only use for backups, transfer it over and install it in maybe 20 minutes. If that was possible I would do that in a finger snap.

One member uses Ableton live. I am betting it could match the Realband node function. Garage band maybe. My impression is there are tons of them that put RealBand to shame but for my limited needs if RealBand can do these node volume adjustments I just don't need that kind of horse power.

It just seems very weird that it does not work and I have to send the output to another computer as a work around to get the node function.


Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 07:06 PM)
_________________________
John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles

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#532525 - 04/12/19 04:14 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
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John, there is only a service pack 1 for Windows 7, so you can't go higher. That being said, Windows 7 goes end-of-life in January 2020, after which there will be no more security patches (feature patches ended a while back). I'm in the same boat, as I run Windows 7 on my laptop (didn't go to Windows 10 on it because HP didn't provide proper drivers for either Windows 8 or 10). I can run 10 (and probably will come January), but only get a generic video driver and HDMI doesn't work for when I try to connect my laptop to a TV, nor does the fingerprint reader. But I digress.

Just be aware that come January you may have security concerns with your computer(s).
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#532531 - 04/12/19 05:44 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Hi John, thanks so much for responding. It must be fate :-) We have the same first name and you are the perfect person to do this test :-)

Maybe you can do me a giant favour and do the simple test for me that I made much clearer than the last time and which is attached to this post with a nice set of detailed step by step instructions. I had to copy the instructions out to a 2nd image so you can read them.

I assume you know how to run the nodes. Just in case others see this post who do not know how to use the nodes and who also want to try my exact test here is the video for how to use the nodes (probably better called "Volume Automation").

Youtube: RealBand Volume Automation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY&t=12s

As mentioned in an prior post my original testing method was far to slow and cumbersome. So I created a much better way and created a picture for how to do it which is shown below. This revised picture has the actual instructions.


Regarding the microphone part of the instructions if one does not have a microphone one could play 3 high notes, 3 low notes and the same 3 high notes (with a larger space between the sets of 3) as a way to make the audio wave form unique (so it is easy to figure out where to adjust the nodes down to zero volume) and (so it is easy listen to the .wav file and figure out where you are in the recording and if it has properly reflected the node adjustments).

Thanks,
John

P.S. If "volume automation" can not be saved to .wav with RealBand then this YouTube/Google search string is probably the best starting point for finding programs that can. String Search: "daw programs with volume automation" or "daw programs with volume automation review". If no program can do it then feeding the sound output to another computer would be the only way I can think of at least (I used it when I could not get RealBand to do it and it works but the volume is kind of low).


Attachments
RealBand_NodeSettingImage.png

RealBand_NodeSettingImage_Instructions.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 04:02 PM)
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#532580 - 04/12/19 10:34 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
If I have time this weekend, I'll give it a try on my Windows 7 laptop and let you know the results I get in RealBand 2019.
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John

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#532581 - 04/12/19 10:55 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Thanks John. IF you can't do it this weekend that is fine. No rush. I won't be doing any mixing again until after April 28th anyway. John
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My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles

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#532641 - 04/13/19 09:21 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
John B. - I should be able to test this in RB2019 this weekend. However, there are a couple of things I noticed. In the picture you posted, it was just audio tracks, so your MIDI settings (that you later posted) should not apply. Also, I noticed that you are using stereo tracks for what appear to be mono material (the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks. Is there a particular reason for this?
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John

LaptopBeast HP Win10Pro64 8GB
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VideoBeast HP Win10Pro64 8GB

BB-RB2020/UMC404HD/Casio Kbds/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NIKomplete/Halion/Garritan/IK

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#532662 - 04/13/19 12:05 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19834
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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jford,
I asked OP to post his MIDI settings because Nodes are stored as MIDI Events (to my knowledge).
If his MIDI was not sending correctly, these messages wouldn't happen. Just checking for an odd setting that could somehow be causing the OPs issue, since it seems so weird.


Attachments
Node_MIDI.jpg


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#532671 - 04/13/19 02:02 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Originally Posted By: jford
John B. - I should be able to test this in RB2019 this weekend. However, there are a couple of things I noticed. In the picture you posted, it was just audio tracks, so your MIDI settings (that you later posted) should not apply. Also, I noticed that you are using stereo tracks for what appear to be mono material (the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks. Is there a particular reason for this?


Maybe the reason for "the wave form is all in the left channel of those audio tracks" is I was not aware of this and it sounds pretty good to me ear. To bring the .wav files in to RealBand I go to the windows folder where the song tracks are stored, delete the ones I know have no recording data, highlight all the remaining .wav track files , left click and hold on the top track that is highlighted, drag it to the top track of RealBand and release the left button. That drops them all perfectly into RealBand keeping the same name as in the windows folder. So these tracks coming in would be mono and RealBand is doing whatever. If it sounds good to me I don't question it. It is basically the same with the "save As" after the Volume Automation (node) changes. If it sounds good to me (or if it is not important that it be perfect) I am done. It is more or less the same reason I never really checked all the prior recordings before and never noticed the problem before. It is only because I am in the middle of changing my guitar technique (mastering a new technique) that I have become really sensitive to it and listening really closely to it. Translation, my guitar playing live without a good warm-up is below my standard so I redo my guitar playing part of the recordings after a good solid warm-up and listen very carefully to them now. It is in this hyper critical mode I am much more likely to notice issues like the node adjustments not getting written out to the .wav file. In a way I suppose you could call this "just in time learning". My test is a different attitude. Since I am asking others to donate their free time my test is designed to make it easy "meaning you do not need to be hyper critical and listening really hard to notice the issue".


Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 02:14 PM)
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#532682 - 04/13/19 04:45 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
John,
I have seen this problem before when I was first trying to use the 'nodes' to adjust levels with RB2017 ver7.

I used the Gain Nodes in db as you are doing and had all kinds of trouble with it not saving the set level. I contacted tech support in October of 2017 and they verified the problem. At that time they instructed me to use Volume nodes instead of Gain nodes. And that fixed the problem for me.

I'm now running RB2018 and the Volume nodes work perfect with RB2018 and Windows 7. It may be worth a try to use the Volume Nodes instead of Gain Nodes. The volume node levels range from 0 to 127 max.
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#532684 - 04/13/19 05:09 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Posts: 568
Hi Del,

thanks so much and wow! Maybe this problem is not so weird after all :-) Your input is very valuable because that eliminates my concern that it might be my using Win-7 without updates causing the problem. I have to assume TechSupport does not remember your problems. I was not aware there such a thing as volume nodes versus gain nodes. I will pock around and see if I can figure it out. Before I get into the google searches etc I am starting to remember some of the things Rharv mentioned 1 or 2 years ago when I first felt the need to have RB store volume changes. I seem to remember it has the ability to remember adjustments I make to the volume sliders. Maybe that is what you are referring to. If so it would not be as nice since one can not see it.

Also since John Ford is going to be doing my tests on version 2019 it sounds like he will get a positive result (the node adjustments will copy to the .wav file). It will be interesting to see what his results are.

So I have a day off with my daughter visiting. While she does some work I have been pocking around with Audacity to see if it can do a visual volume automation. It appears it may be able to. I am about to try and confirm that. If it can solve the problem what I will do is look at the new BIAB features and see if they are enticing enough to make me upgrade.

John


Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 05:28 PM)
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#532685 - 04/13/19 05:15 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
John,
when you expand the track to set your node level, you will see a drop down box on the left side of the track. Click that and change it from 'Gain Nodes' to 'Volume Nodes'.
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#532687 - 04/13/19 05:34 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Skip that. I just found it Del. You are a genious :-) I will attach a 2nd picture to help out with this and delete the first one. Now i will see if I can apply my simple little test and get a positive result :-)

Originally Posted By: Del
John,
when you expand the track to set your node level, you will see a drop down box on the left side of the track. Click that and change it from 'Gain Nodes' to 'Volume Nodes'.


Once I click the initial drop down to show the horizontal node line I do not see an additional drop down box to switch back and forth with. I attached the picture. I am on 2016 version 10 now. I don't remember it being any different in 2016 version 7 which I just upgraded from. Did they create a special variant for you?


Attachments
RealBand_Vol_Versus_Gain_Nodes.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 05:44 PM)
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#532688 - 04/13/19 05:40 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
Del Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
Hover over track 2 as shown in your image, until your cursor changes to a double arrow and then drag track 2 downward, then you should see the other drop down box.
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#532689 - 04/13/19 05:58 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
Thanks Del, I discovered it and updated my prior post but I guess not fast enough :-) I ran my simple test and the results were positive (see attached picture). Problem solved. Thanks so much for your help. Now the mystery is solved.


Attachments
RealBand_Test_Success_With_Volume_Nodes.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 08:18 PM)
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#532692 - 04/13/19 06:12 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
Del Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 126
Loc: ND
I'm glad it worked for you John!

I struggled with this problem for several months before tech support told me about the 'Volume Nodes' option.

Apparently the 'Gain Node' issue I reported in 2017 is still hanging around for some users. Using volume nodes has worked flawlessly for me and I use it in most of my songs.
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#532695 - 04/13/19 06:37 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: Del]
Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
bowlesj Offline
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Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 568
I respect your patience Del. I would have jumped ship very quickly partly because part of me loves to learn new stuff. I was actually starting to investigate Audacity tonight. I would much rather stick with RealBand since BIAB is a wonderful program and we could not have as many jams without it. Bottom line is being a good jazz guitar player is much more important to me than being a great sound engineer. It always will be. Anything to save me time is the highest priority and you saved me a boat load of it tonight. Thanks again. Best of luck to you in everything. John
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My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles

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#532700 - 04/13/19 08:30 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Posts: 11783
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Okay, here are the results of my testing.

I created a RealBand file using a RealStyle to generate a number of tracks. I then picked one.

I started with Gain Nodes. After bringing various sections down to zero and then back up, I tried saving that individual track using the numerous ways you can do that in RealBand.

1. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Track, Save Track to File"
2. From the top line menu, select "Edit, Track, Save Track to File" (essentially the same as #1.
3. Right click on track, from popup menu select "Save Audio Track As WAV"
4. From top line menu, select "Render, Save Track to File"
5. From top line menu, select "Render, Save All Tracks to WAV Files"
6. Mute all the tracks except the track in question, the from the top line menu, select "Render, Merge Audio to Stereo WAV"

In all instances except #6 ("Merge Audio to Stereo WAV"), the resulting file does not honor the node settings. For #6, it does. Of course, even though my original track was a mono track, I ended up with a resultant stereo WAV file.

I then did the same thing using Volume nodes and obtained exactly the same results.

So, my guess is that the other methods to save a track (#1-#5 above) is to preserve the original underlying WAV file with no processing. #6, however, does honor the nodes so that the rendered down file contains the audio as you hear it normally in RealBand.

I don't know if this was intentional implementation, but it is clearly the way RealBand works.

Another test would be to see whether effects achieve the same results. So I tried it with heavy reverb (since that's easy to hear). I obtained the same results as with the nodes. I only heard reverb when I rendered using the "Merge Audio to Stereo WAV". All other means of saving the track resulted in the dry version of the track with no effects applied.

Hope that helps (at least answer the question).
_________________________
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We're delighted to be adding 200 GROUNDBREAKING RealStyles to the Band-in-a-Box® collection with Xtra Styles PAK 9!

Our new Rock-Pop additions include neo soul with vocals, classic ska with a horn section, a psychedelic sixties pop ballad, heavier action-scene cinematic metal, post-punk folk rock, six-substyle gospel pop MultiStyle with vocals, and more!

With the latest Jazz Xtra Styles, we've added everything from quarter-feel jazz blues to New Orleans Gospel to jazzy disco funk and gentle bossa folk pop, and more! We've also included a brand-new (huge!) ten-substyle "changes" jazz swing MultiStyle with three different soloist options!

The newest Country RealTracks are a real treat! We've fused folk and Americana instruments with the country sounds you know and love: ethereal and songwriter country ballads, a country rock march, country pop with layered cellos, a country soul groove, and much, much more! The included six-substyle summertime country pop MultiStyle will help you create your perfect summertime hit!

Plus, we've added to our Folk & Beyond collection with our Xtra Styles PAK 9 release! There are 50 fresh new styles, including a Cajun jaw harp boogie, cinematic folk with strings, a modern Celtic folk reel, a gentle three-guitar folk ballad, delta blues with shaker - the list goes on! Add Folk & Beyond 2 and you'll also receive a brand-new eight-part mountain folk MultiStyle!

There are 50 new RealStyles in each genre - get them ALL for only $29 until June 30th! Learn more, listen to demos and order here.

But wait... there's MORE!

We've also rolled out 50 NEW Styles and 100 NEW Loops in Loops-with-Style PAK 2!
Use these new Styles and Loops directly in your Band-in-a-Box® songs to access all their B substyle loops, or load these acidized loops directly into your DAW that supports acid info! Genres include Electronic, Funk, Hip Hop, Jazz, Pop, R&B, Rock, World, plus we're introducing two new genre categories - Gospel and Folk!

Add Loops-with-Style PAK 2 today for just $19! Learn more and purchase here.

Haven't purchased Loops-with-Styles yet? Get the entire collection for only $29 when you bundle Loops-with-Style PAK 1 & Loops-with-Style PAK 2 for only $29! That's 100 Styles and 200 Loops for Band-in-a-Box® for just $29! Order now.

Mac User? Click here for Mac details and purchase links.

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