Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Well now. That talk made the discussion clear as mud.
Seriously two thoughts came to mind:
When was the presentation given? Ableton published the video on March 19, 2019 so I'm slightly reassured the presentation is current.
Are either of the two cases mentioned in the presentation under appeal? The answer is not readily available so there is no way to know if the definition of infringement of US copyright law will be clarified.
I recently heard a sample that you can buy on Splice. It's basically a guy humming/beat boxing the bass line from Rapper's Delight (Sugar Hill Gang), which is also the bass line in Good Times (Chic), which is also a bass line from an older more unknown soul record.
Imagine 10 different people buy that sample from Splice and use it unaltered on 10 different tracks that are all published on Spotify. Who will sue who? It is hard to believe that a jury "consisting of ordinary people" would say it is fair use.
Edit: Oh, and I think attorneys love the "mud" with contradictory or unclear rulings, because that is how they get clients!
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
The second case he talked about is 2nd Circuit which means Appeals. I kinda follow the Thicke case and I haven't heard of it being appealed. I think I read they settled it out by paying several mil to Gaye's estate.
I thought he explained the "mud" element pretty clearly when he demonstrated what he did with Uptown Funk. He took samples from that recording and smushed them up so much as to be completely unrecognizable. My takeaway was that would probably be OK but the operative word is "probably". Attorneys' crystal balls are no clearer than anybody else's. If somebody sued somebody for mashing samples up so far as to be unrecognizable and you went to him to defend he would probably say there could be a decent defense here and quote you a fee. There are NEVER any guarantees when you go to court.
People need to read these actual cases based on the trial transcripts to really understand what went on. I'm a nerd with no life and actually do read some of that stuff...
The main thing is you can do anything you want and get away with it if your song never goes anywhere like online for example. Oh, you want to put it up on YouTube? Then be careful. If you're worried about it then don't sample or write or create a certain feel that sounds like a copy of something else. Just don't do it and this whole conversation is moot.
Other than don’t copy or don’t sample other folks. Can anyone tell me what this guy actually said. I could not say I was in anyway enlightened (but then again American English is not my native tongue.)
Edited by Teunis (05/26/1912:46 AM)
HP i7-4770 16GB 512G SSD, Win 10 Home, Roland Quad Capture, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster + more BB 2020(709) RB 2020(1), CakeWalk by BandLab, Reaper, Audacity, Melodyne and more
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I can see it would be a bit tricky of you're not a native English speaker.
The first case was this: A famous group of producers freely admitted they loved a song done by Marvin Gaye and wrote a new song similar to it. It had different words and a different bass line but the overall feel and sound was very similar. When Gaye's family heard it they sued saying it was too close to what Marvin did and the court agreed it was copyright infringement. That was a big bomb dropped in the middle of the music biz because everybody thought the feel or rhythm or whatever was ok, it was specific musical licks or melodies they had to watch out for. I listened to both songs and yes they definitely have a certain ambience or overall feel in common even though the new one has different words. This case was not about specific samples it was about the feel of it.
His second point was where do you draw the line with copying samples? If you sample the bass line from Thriller and you can clearly hear it's the bass line from Thriller then forget it, you'll get sued. What he did was sample some parts of Uptown Funk but using Abelton Live he transformed the samples so much they had no resemblance at all to the original sound. He then posed the question, is this OK or not? His answer was "maybe".
These two cases have nothing specific to do with rap or hip hop, it concerns all music. He's talking about soundtracks from big movies like Star Wars or the Avengers, pop songs, classic country, whatever. And, he specifically said if you copy or sample something that is recognizable and release it you WILL get caught so don't even think about it. He even answered the question, how about just one bar? NO. How about just 2 beats? NO. If a third party listening to an original recording of yours can tell even one little thing was exactly the same as the original, you're screwed if the artist wants to sue. There is software now that can pick stuff like that up just like the software universities use to catch students trying to cheat on their term papers by plagiarizing books or other published papers.
Which was really the point of the talk, imo. He wasn't giving (much) specific legal advice. He was explaining the current (as of the date of the talk) state of the law. If the law (and the precedents set in the courts) are in flux, how is a concise answer even possible? His points about undermining the value of a copyright shouldn't be ignored either. If you've done no damage (you haven't usurped money or driven value from the original to your "homage") then a suit for damages is pointless. If you HAVE, then things are really slippery at the moment until settled more firmly. Beware.
It's also worth remembering that there are essentially two types of copyright pertaining to recorded music. Mechanical rights are about the actual recording. This is mostly what he demonstrated.
Publishing rights are about, essentially, what happens before a song is recorded to hard media (including computer hard-drives). Lyrics, melody, etc. This is mostly what he talked about in the Marvin Gaye scenario. They weren't accused of using even bits of the recording of that song, but copying one or more of the creative decisions made in the creation of the song. That's the "scary" one for music and musicians in general.
It's exceeding easy to NOT COPY recordings--not even a single lick or note. It's a more open question when "creative decisions" can be construed to infringe. Sometimes it's blatant and obvious. Other times it may be coincidental. And other times, it's just the nature of music that there are only so many choices available in progression or in intervals. As long as juries understand this, then I think they can be trusted to judge rightly.
Edited by Tangmo (05/28/1907:10 AM)
BIAB 2019 Audiophile. Windows 10. Former user of old version. Prefer creating while learning over learning before creating. Passable, intermediate level acoustic rhythm guitar player. Songwriter, lyricist, composer loving all styles.
I followed one of the references, the Estate of Marvin Gaye vs. Robin Thicke, who many here have probably heard of. A fairly routine copyright complaint suddenly takes a dystopian turn when the judge considers the idea that the song of the defendant had the same "feel" of the Marvin Gaye song.* This would be an outrage if it were not for the eerie pre-recognition of things possibly to come, as Google and Artificial Intelligence continue to team up to produce programs like China's "social credit system," which now has identified over three million "citizens of questionable social value," or thoughts. Not bad for a couple of years work. It takes no loss of the senses to imagine a world in which Google uses Ai to compile a data base of "finger prints," in a manner of speaking, of every element of the audio universe, carefully tabulated and cross referenced to suggest possible duplication that could be used to gin up litigation on behalf of lawsuit happy children of the creator. Not a leap at all. Add to this the fact that broad distribution makes it possible to claim a violation occurred in virtually any corner of the civilized world; meaning, with that much territory, plaintiffs are bound to find a sympathetic judge, somewhere. Typically, we underestimated Silicon Valley. We have heard the plan is to use copyright law to shut down criticism of media content, de facto censorship, or that the purpose of the tech giant's buying up intellectual property en masse was to start a super library. Silicon Valley is always two steps ahead of us. It is in the water. A good reference on this is UC Davis's Professor Darrell Hamamoto's "The Dark Side of Asian America." Darrell has the technocracy sussed. Here's more food for thought: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/music/a-court-date-has-been-set-for-the-copyright-infringement-lawsuit-against-ed-sheeran.html/ ................................ *"The basis of the Gaye defendants' claims is that 'Blurred Lines' and 'Got to Give It Up' 'feel' or 'sound' the same," the lawsuit states. "Being reminiscent of a 'sound' is not copyright infringement. The intent in producing 'Blurred Lines' was to evoke an era." https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/robin-thicke-files-lawsuit-blurred-lines-article-1.1429185
Edited by edshaw (05/29/1904:19 AM)
Biab for WIN 2018 Win 10 64bit Reaper TASCAM Digital deck
Then.... there was the time when I was riding down the road....I was listening to a local gospel radio station and a song came on that made my jaw drop. It was by a local (in this state) gospel quartet. I forget the names involved but this song had a melody, lyrics and a groove that was practically a dead ringer for a song I had written a few years previous. I was floored by the similarities.
The song I wrote was never released.... this was back before the internet was a thing. Stuff was still recorded mostly on tape and transferred to tapes. No chance they had heard my song.... at least not very likely. It was simply and amazing coincidence.
No I didn't get a lawyer, no I didn't sue.... I never heard that song from that group again. In fact... I never heard anything from that group. They probably faded into the dust heap of countless, faceless, gospel quartets.
Thanks for sharing - I found this to be very informative. Still a little muddy, yes - but he's an attorney in the subject and even he finds it muddy. Unfortunately the grey area on the subject right now is vast. I look forward to hearing where it all ends up.
There's a growing surplus of experimental artists on the underbelly of the hip hop and rock scene I follow. I have a suspicion as these laws get stricter and stricter, we'll see more and more experimental and abstract artists coming to the forefront. I could be wrong, but it'd be nice to see.
It's a tough time for pop artists though. It's scary knowing if something even has the vibe of another tune - by accident even - that you can be sued.
Edshaw, I am sending this out to all of my musician friends who are not on the forums. This explained a lot of way I dislike most of the songs on the radio today. It also explained why I like most of the music in the showcase!
Son "When I grow up I want to be a musician". Mom "son, choose one or the other, you can't be both"!
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Thank you Mario. I hesitated to post that link. Your positive comment on it makes all the difference. Thx. Yeah, Ai and out of control domination is affecting so many areas, not to mention music. I also turned up a PBS Nova clip (3:00) on Deep Fakes, which I had only heard mentioned. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/deepfake-videos-are-getting-terrifyingly-real/ Not to dwell on it, but it goes to show what can happen when the business agents take over all the jobs, kind of like robots in an auto plant.
Biab for WIN 2018 Win 10 64bit Reaper TASCAM Digital deck
When computer-created music becomes more mainstream and computer AI's can easily detect copyright violation, maybe we'll get into a situation where computers start suing the computers over artificial intellectual property infringement.
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-The built-in Audio Chord Wizard is now accessible from the [Audio Chord Wizard] button.
-The Audio Edit window now displays chords and tempos for each bar. They are shown when the Audio Chord Wizard mode is active so that you can see the tempo for each bar as you set the bar lines.
-When you start entering bar lines, the program automatically sets the tempo to the tempo of the first bar.
-Once the tempo of the first bar is set, the program automatically moves the location of the first bar of audio over so that the visual space of the count-in bars is visible.
-After you’ve added the bar lines, IF you adjust the first or second bar and the tempo of the first bar changes accordingly, the program automatically changes the tempo of the song to match.
-Multi-window display. This gives the Audio Chord Wizard a multi-window view so that you can see and edit both the Audio Edit window and the Chords Sheet at the same time. This display is best viewed with a small toolbar mode. This allows you to see the chords as they are being interpreted by the wizard.
-The Audio Chord Wizard can send the transcribed MIDI notes to the Soloist track for further analysis by the user (via Piano Roll or Notation window). Note that this is a "snapshot" view every 8th note of the pitches present, not an attempt at polyphonic transcription. To use this feature, enable the "MIDI to Soloist" check box.
Read more about these enhancements here, or jump to the New Feature - Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) Enhancements section of our New Features video here.
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We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2020 packages, but for more even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks) upgrade it to the 2020 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
Note: this patch is not intended to update your version to the recently released Band-in-a-Box® 2020, which is available for purchase here.
Summary of Changes for Version 2019 Build 642 (Jan 08 2020): Changed: Default the 'include similar styles in the stylepicker' to false each bootup. Improved: BootupLog.txt will include more elaborate information when troubleshooting bootup problems. This only applies if WriteBootUpLog.txt is present in the Data folder. Updated: PDF and help (routine cleanup/updaes). Fixed: "There is no audio file currently recorded" error message when using Audio > Plugin. Fixed: [Video] > Render Video(s)... menu item should launch the Make Chordsheet Video dialog if Video RealTracks export is not available. Fixed: Access violation in Song Titles browser if no song is selected when clicking [Close]. Fixed: Applying audio effects using Audio > Plugins would fail with error "Plugin cancelled. Original file is preserved". Fixed: Audio > Edit Audio > Timeshift Audio would crash the program if the Audio Edit window was not open. Fixed: Audio will not import to a custom position if there is already audio on the Audio track. Fixed: Band-in-a-Box might crash during bootup if an ASIO driver was previously selected, and the device is no longer connected to the computer. Fixed: Band-in-a-Box might crash during bootup if there is a problem with font installation (usually after upgrading Windows 7 to Windows 10). Fixed: Band-in-a-Box might crash when opening a song that contains note-based lyrics. Fixed: Bar Lyrics and Section Text layers do not line up with bars in Notation window if there are repeats in song, and fake sheet mode is enabled. Fixed: Clicking OK in the MIDI/Audio Driver Setup dialog should not close the floating Mixer window. Fixed: Close button in Select chorus start/end dialog should behave like Cancel, ie user clicking on bar afterwards shouldn't do anything. Fixed: Crash with error "external exception C06D007F" while launching if using Windows XP. Fixed: Dragging a single track to export MIDI causes that track to be permanently soloed. Fixed: If an ASIO driver cannot connect during bootup, the default WAS driver should be used instead. Fixed: If using the 64 bit version of Band-in-a-Box, the BB2Go window would display an erroneous QuickTime version, and converting files to .m4a would fail. QuickTime is only available for the 32 bit version, but is only required if using Windows Vista or earlier. Fixed: Lyrics would not display in the Big Lyrics if "Show chord symbols above the lyrics" was enabled. Fixed: melodists were getting quantized incorrectly. Fixed: Possible crash if editing a text layer while using the floating Notation Window. Fixed: Possible freeze when importing compressed audio files. Fixed: Practice window | Master Solos | Blues Piano, displays N/A. Fixed: RealTracks #2975 (Vocal Oohs-Aahs) sometimes played incorrect chords for m7b5 and C7. Fixed: Rebuilding styles list was causing errors sometimes. Fixed: Several Piano and Organ MIDI SuperTracks have been edited to remove spurious MIDI events (e.g. mod wheel sometimes caused 'warbling' effect). Fixed: Sforzando might not automatically be added to the VST list, causing Hi-Q patch selection to fail. Fixed: Some bars for the B section of RT 2529 were dropping out. Fixed: Some Bass and Nylon Guitar RealTracks (including 2718, 2724, 2722, 2725, 2719) have RealCharts added. Fixed: StylePicker: User Category list wasn't refreshing after choosing a new user category. Fixed: The About dialog said 'for Macintosh' instead of 'for Windows'. Fixed: The Drop Station would not update if dropping a file onto Presonus Studio One. Fixed: When choosing a compressed format for rendering files, and "One file per track" is enabled, the resulting files are .wav format instead of the compressed format. Fixed: Wrong notes on Oohs and Aahs RealTracks.
Summary of changes for Band-in-a-Box DAW Plugin 1.16.29: Added: copy selected cell if nothing highlighted Added: shift-arrows to select in chord sheet Added: SHIFT-ENTER to go backwards in chord sheet Added: SHIFT-TAB to go backwards in chord sheet, TAB to go forward Added: support for all Biab file types Fixed: Added message if attempting to drag tracks before generating Fixed: Alert window buttons "punch hole" when pressed Fixed: Audio stutters when resizing plugin in some DAWs Fixed: auto gen after open feature not working in Studio One 4 Fixed: bounds when highlighting in chord sheet Fixed: C#7b5b9b13 to chord sheet Fixed: distortion when stopping playback in pro tools Fixed: losing focus in chord sheet Fixed: make selected cell at the end after pasting Fixed: Open dialog in infinite loop Fixed: plugin stops playing non-synced tracks when closing and then opening plugin Fixed: Send space bar keystrokes to DAW Fixed: some styles not dragging all tracks from blue button Fixed: track text not resizing correctly Fixed: Transpose not working Fixed: Verify folders before each call to Biab
New Left-Handed & Student View Guitar Window in Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Windows!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Windows, the Guitar window has been remade and now supports the left-handed (in addition to right-handed) guitar and student view!
The student view is the view a student (or YouTube video watcher) would have of the (right-handed) guitar facing him with the head at the right and low notes at the top. There's also a left-handed student view, so all 4 possible views are supported.
To change the view, press the [Guitar] toolbar button to open the Guitar window and then the [Settings] button.
See this new feature in action when you jump to the "Left-Handed & Student View Guitar Fretboard" topic in our 2020 New Features video: Click here...
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