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#540139 - 06/09/19 04:21 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5099
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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You may be correct there's no issue with the XML file. As I said, I have no experience with applying them in BIAB/RB or knowledge of using them in any manner. Also, XML files ability to be imported into PGMusic software is a fairly new feature so I was giving my best guess. Your issue with the two instances of INTERLUDE also led me in this direction. At the same time, I'm fairly confident from the various results obtained, there's no defect with RealBand regarding generations of 240 or 255 bars.


It sounds odd when I say it but I believe the issue is no more than something from somewhere has put a command around bar 240-241 since you consistently have the issue there.


You can easily select a few bars prior to bar 240 carrying the selection beyond 241 perhaps to bar 245 and manually make changes to the chords, replace instruments and only regenerate those few bars to see if completing a smaller size task makes a difference. You can do this to one instrument or to all of them at that section only.


To select a section of all the instruments -

Select the radio Snap To Grid Button in the upper left tool bar area.

Select a track, multiple tracks or all the tracks (to select multiple tracks use the control on any desired additional track or shift key between the first and last track you want to choose.)

Place your curser at bar 238 and Press F7

Place your curser at bar 245 and Press F8

The selected section (all tracks)should be highlighted in blue.

Right Click on the blue selected area or Select the large Generate Button

From the drop down menu - Generate\Regenerate All (selected region) (selected tracks) - The selection reads different in the large radio generate button than from the Right click method but the result should be the same.

Only the selected area should regenerate and apply the changes you made to the chord chart.
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#540163 - 06/09/19 10:33 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
You may be correct there's no issue with the XML file. As I said, I have no experience with applying them in BIAB/RB or knowledge of using them in any manner. Also, XML files ability to be imported into PGMusic software is a fairly new feature so I was giving my best guess. Your issue with the two instances of INTERLUDE also led me in this direction. At the same time, I'm fairly confident from the various results obtained, there's no defect with RealBand regarding generations of 240 or 255 bars.


It sounds odd when I say it but I believe the issue is no more than something from somewhere has put a command around bar 240-241 since you consistently have the issue there.


You can easily select a few bars prior to bar 240 carrying the selection beyond 241 perhaps to bar 245 and manually make changes to the chords, replace instruments and only regenerate those few bars to see if completing a smaller size task makes a difference. You can do this to one instrument or to all of them at that section only.


Thanks, Charlie, for elaborating on your perspective on XML files. And thanks for your suggestion for me to experiment with the 240/241 bar boundary by making various changes to a small section of bars before and after this boundary and then regenerating those tracks. Unfortunately, I had tried this during one of my previous tests and repeatedly ran into the exact same problem. To substantiate my claim that there is indeed an issue with the 240/241 boundary during RB track generation process, I created a video that documents this entire scenario using a test song that I had created by manually entering the chords into RB's Chord Window. IOW, this test song was not created from opening a .XML file. You can watch this video on my Youtube channel at this link:

https://youtu.be/khIKS_RAGHg
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#540183 - 06/09/19 02:43 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 05/30/00
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Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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muzikluver,
Maybe try sending this to support via email, or Chat with them tomorrow.
Since you can post the video file, PGMusic may be able to replicate or explain.
https://www.pgmusic.com/support.htm


Edited by rharv (06/09/19 02:43 PM)
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#540186 - 06/09/19 03:10 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: rharv]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: rharv
muzikluver,
Maybe try sending this to support via email, or Chat with them tomorrow.
Since you can post the video file, PGMusic may be able to replicate or explain.
https://www.pgmusic.com/support.htm

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try emailing it to them first along with a link to this discussion.
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#540228 - 06/09/19 07:06 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5099
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Thanks for posting the video. You're correct, there's nothing in the chords to cause the chord change and it's clearly there. Rharv's correct that it will likely be best to let support examine the file. I asked someone knowledgeable about XML files and they told me a chord change would be obviously visible and they did not think the XML file had any thing to do with your issue. This test you did seems to confirm that.
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#540244 - 06/09/19 07:45 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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I sent them an email several hours ago with links to both discussions about this issue (here and in the BiaB forum) as well as a link to my video. I'll let all of you know when they get back to me and what they say about all of this. Thanks for all the help!
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#540249 - 06/09/19 09:03 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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<<< I'll let all of you know when they get back to me and what they say about all of this. >>>

Please do. It's an intriguing problem.

Charlie
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#540403 - 06/10/19 07:26 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Well, this afternoon I received a reply from Joe at PG Music to the email I sent to technical support yesterday. Before I share what Joe wrote to me, I'll share with I wrote in my email:

"Dear Technical Support,

I started using RealBand for the first time a few days ago to find out if it resolves the 255 bar limit in Band in a Box per the suggestion of another user in the Band in a Box forum. In the process, I discovered a problem that occurs repeatedly when RB reaches bar 241 during its track generation process using the BiaB engine. Rather than explain the problem in this email, I'll provide you with a link to the discussion I started in the RB forum on your website as well as a link to a video I created that documents this problem. I'll also provide you with a link to the original discussion I started in the BiaB form that resulted in my decision to try RB in order to create arrangements for two of my songs that exceed the 255 bar limit. Perhaps you could explain why this is happening and if there's anything I can do to work around it. Better yet, perhaps you could fix this problem without much effort. Thanks for your help!

(links included)

Tom"

And here is the reply I received:

"Thank you for contacting us. Although the limit for the song length in Band-in-a-Box is 255, generally speaking the closer you get to that point the more work the Band-in-a-Box engine taxes your computer and thus can create some pretty unwanted results.

As a general rule, the shorter the song the better it is. Even if you need to export smaller portions as a .wav then import them into another DAW to increase the length of it that would be a good work around.

Let us know if you require further assistance.

Cheers,
Joe
PG Music Inc.
Important Reminder: Please include all previous correspondence when replying to this message."

In my opinion, this is a strange reply. I contacted support about a bug in RB's execution of BiaB's engine to overcome the 255 bar limit, and support responded with a discussion on BiaB and a recommendation to use songs that don't get close to the 255 bar limit. Huh?
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#540420 - 06/11/19 03:38 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5099
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Thanks for posting the update.

Interesting reply from Joe. It seem that although the RealBand program doesn't have a limit of 255 bars, the BIAB algorithm within the RealBand program becomes unstable when generations near the BIAB physical limit of 255 bars.

An analogy would be a rope designed to be safe under a specific load at 20' will not break when used at that load at the 20' length. The same rope braided to a length of 100' will still be designed to work at that load for 20' and may break when used at the 100' length.


It's a limitation of BIAB although it presents within RealBand.
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#540424 - 06/11/19 05:02 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
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That's one way to look at it, Charlie, but I think there's more to it than that. On the one hand, RB doesn't even allow the BiaB engine to reach the 255 bar limit. This is why it only generates tracks up to 240 bars and then starts over with an additional 240 bars (or, in the case of my 320-bar song, an additional 80 bars). Although Jim Fogle's post on 6/8/19 above identified two gaps that occurred in his test song (one in all tracks at bar 240 and one in the base track at bar 272), my complaint isn't about the FIRST 240 bars. My complaint is about the SECOND 240 bars. More specifically, my complaint is about the BEGINNING of the second 240 bars, that is, the VERY FIRST bar if it doesn't have a chord assigned to it along with any subsequent bars that don't have a chord assigned to them as well.

In my test song and in a test song that Pipeline did (see his post on 6/9/19 in my BiaB forum topic "An idea to fix the dreaded '255 bar limit'"), RB inserted a C chord in the first unassigned bar, which from these two test cases appears to be a default operation within RB. Thus, on the other hand, RB's implementation of the BiaB engine for any unassigned bars in the BEGINNING of the second 240 bars is faulty because it doesn't account for the last assigned chord at the end of the first 240 bars. Or, as Pipeline put it in his post, "I would say that's a bug they need to look into as it's not stitching it correctly." This is why a glitch will sometimes occur at the 240/241 bar boundary as well as an erroneous chord change.

Regarding Jim Fogle's test, those gaps appeared only after he had changed all the rests, shots, holds in his song to whole chords. The gaps at bar 240 may have been due to a beat calculation error, which may correspond indirectly to the gap that appeared from bar 184 to bar 240 in one of my test songs with a 4/4 time signature when I used a 3/4 style. However, the gap in the base track at bar 272 could have been random and may have disappeared if he had regenerated that entire track or just a small section of that track surrounding bar 272. I say this because I had encountered a similar gap in BiaB on a finger picking acoustic guitar track in one of my songs that did not exceed or even come close to the 255 bar limit. When I regenerated the song, that gap went away.

CORRECTION: Jim Fogle's first gap appeared at bar 248, not bar 240. See my post below.


Edited by muzikluver (06/11/19 05:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Added a correction at the end
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#540427 - 06/11/19 05:15 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/17/18
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Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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I just realized after checking Jim Fogle's post again that the gap in all the tracks of his test song was actually at bar 248, not bar 240. So, my theory about a beat calculation error for the first 240 bars is incorrect. So, perhaps this gap reinforces what I said above about RB's implementation of the BiaB engine at the BEGINNING of the second 240 bars.

I also did not point out that Jim Fogle's base track had a gap at bar 244 as well, but he didn't mention this in his post.


Edited by muzikluver (06/11/19 05:23 AM)
Edit Reason: Added additional statement at the end
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#540431 - 06/11/19 05:48 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7748
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Yes
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#540432 - 06/11/19 06:00 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 12/08/02
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MusicStudent Offline
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muzikluver, I suspect you now can more appreciate what the term "baggage" means. crazy
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#540437 - 06/11/19 06:28 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: MusicStudent]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
muzikluver, I suspect you now can more appreciate what the term "baggage" means. crazy

I sure can! Obviously, as Bob (jazzmammal) pointed out, "RB isn't perfect," and I never expected it to be perfect. I just didn't know what types of issues I would be running into. This forum contains plenty of posts about such issues. Of course, BiaB has its own issues as well. But it's still a great program, and RB has the appearance of being a great program for its primary intended use as a DAW. I just haven't used it enough yet as a DAW to know that for sure from my own experience and may never know that because of my limited DAW needs.
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#540439 - 06/11/19 06:36 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Loc: Cornwall UK
HI

Just a thought to stop the first chord in a new song coming up as C just set the key sig of the song to the chord you want.
However if you want to start on a note in a key that is not the tonic that is a problem.
But you can always change the first chord yourself anyway.

Starting a new version of song for part 2 to stitch on as a wav, I guess you would need to end part one on a key signature bar before it reaches its critical bar number for you.
At a point that makes musical sense of the arrangement currently generated.
Then create part 2 set to that key sig. the problem then being you may have to regenerate multiple times to come up with same arrangement that the software came up with in part one.
You may well struggle here a bit as what was say bar 220 of a song in part one
In your part two song will be back at bar one and may well get treated as an opening phrase, and therefore not sit well, with where the arrangement would have gone in a continuous generation of more bars.
You will also have to negate the count in at some point .

Seems a rather messy workaround to me and a bit hit and miss

Just my take
Mike
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#540466 - 06/11/19 09:09 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Mike Head]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: Mike Head
HI

Just a thought to stop the first chord in a new song coming up as C just set the key sig of the song to the chord you want. . . .

Thanks for your suggestions and for joining the discussion, Mike. I think you misunderstood what I said. RB doesn't change the first chord in a song to C. It inserts a C chord into bar 241 if bar 241 doesn't already have a chord assigned to it. This chord won't be visible in the Chord window, but you'll definitely hear it in the arrangement. The quickest workaround for this is to simply insert a chord (the most recent chord that occurred prior to bar 241) into bar 241 before asking RB to generate all the BiaB tracks. However, even after doing this, a glitch will sometimes occur at the 240/241 bar boundary because of RB's attempt to switch to another chord first---probably the C chord.
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#540498 - 06/11/19 12:28 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Loc: Albuquerque, NM
I just sent Joe at PG Music support the following reply to his email:

"Hi Joe,

Thanks for your reply to my email and for the comments you made about the behavioral characteristics of the 255 bar limit in Band in a Box. While I do appreciate this information, I have to tell you that the email I sent you was not about problems I was having with this limit in Band in a Box. Instead, my email was about the problems I was having in RealBand because of how it had implemented the Band in a Box algorithm/engine to generate BB tracks for several songs that contained more than 255 bars. This is why I was using RealBand in the first place---as a workaround to the 255 bar limit. But rather than take the time to go into those problems in this email, I strongly encourage you to read through the discussions I started on the "255 bar limit" in your Band in a Box and RealBand Windows product forums. I also shared a video in the discussion on the RealBand forum that shows the main issue I had contacted you about. The links to this video and to both discussions are at the end of my original email below, but I'll provide them again here:

(links included)

Thanks for revisiting this issue.

Tom"
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#540504 - 06/11/19 12:43 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5965
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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You are persistent, I will give you that, but what about buggy do you not understand? <said with a big smile grin >

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#540507 - 06/11/19 01:03 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: MusicStudent]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 207
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
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Posts: 207
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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
You are persistent, I will give you that, but what about buggy do you not understand? <said with a big smile grin >

I sure am! And I hope that's a good thing---especially in this case.

Are you asking me about "buggy" or "baggage"? I suspect that you're using both terms interchangeably. As I mentioned above, my primary intended use of RB is to generate arrangements for my songs that exceed the 255 bar limit and to save those arrangements as instrumental demos that I can share with other people. But after Pipeline suggested in a reply to my discussion of this issue on the BiaB forum that I check out the VST plugin for using two instances of BiaB within Tracktion, I'm thinking of pursuing that option instead of RB when I have the time to set it up and try it out, which I haven't done yet. Nevertheless, I'm not done pursuing a resolution of this issue in RB yet and won't until I'm sure that I've "beaten this horse" completely to death. grin
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#540511 - 06/11/19 02:10 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5965
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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Quote:
But after Pipeline suggested in a reply to my discussion of this issue on the BiaB forum that I check out the VST plugin for using two instances of BiaB within Tracktion, I'm thinking of pursuing that option instead of RB when I have the time to set it up and try it out


If you had fun exploring RB, you are going to have a blast with the BIAB VST. I can't wait for all the drama to come. grin



Quote:
...until I'm sure that I've "beaten this horse" completely to death


Not the first time I have heard this expression here in the forum. crazy
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Edit | Nudge Chords/Melody. Let's say that you have entered a complete song chord progression, and you then realize that all of the chords starting at bar 23 are 1 beat to late. You can use this feature to slide your chords over by 1 beat.

#TipTuesday

Video - Using the Band-in-a-Box® Vocal Wizard

Check out this incredibly thorough video created by Dennis Wilkins, which explains how he uses the Band-in-a-Box® Vocal Wizard! Click here to watch..

YouTube Find - Ballad for a Travelling Lady

We did a search for Band-in-a-Box on YouTube, and look at what we found!

Video - "Ballad for a Travelling Lady" by Stefan Leipziger

What a great use of Band-in-a-Box! Check out Stefan's YouTube Channel for even more of songs he's created with the help of Band-in-a-Box.

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