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#541618 - 06/18/19 12:39 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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EDIT: Y'all posted to ignore BIAB while I was writing this...… Ignore it if you want but it's a different take on BIAB than most people give. wink




<<< I know that I can't create my grand opus in BiaB. >>>

Actually you can. It's a common understanding that BIAB is limited to only 7 tracks and an audio track for a total of 8 channels. That's true. There are only 8 channels but if you understand the difference between a channel and a track as it applies to a multi track recorder, you'll realize there's only 8 channels but each individual channel can be used multiple times to generate many tracks. In the release of BIAB 2019, PGMusic included several enhancements to features that capitalize the multi track recording attributes of BIAB.

In conjunction with enhancing and making access easier to utilize BIAB as a multi track recorder, PGMusic also highlighted and broadened the feature that each BIAB Channel can have up to 10 instruments on it. These can be selected to play alternately or simultaneously. BIAB handles mixing the various instruments and also if played alternately, generating one instruments ending and playing to the next instrument beginning. For instance the lead guitar will anticipate and adapt to a fiddler taking over the solo at bar 25 if that's where you've programmed that change. The artificial intelligence of the BIAB software makes the transition just as if two live players were doing it.

It's easy, seamless and very quick and efficient. Much, much faster than the same thing can be done in RealBand. It's not very popular at this time for several reasons. They're not well known features and many don't like not having total control the same as you get working in a DAW where you have a visual view of each instrument and each instrument is separated from all the other instruments in the mix and the balance between each of the individual instruments is completely and manually controlled. Another issue is some have a mindset to not liking to commit to sub mixes early in the mix. They've learned working in DAW's that give them individual control of 60-80 or more tracks they can tame by bussing and grouping until they get to their master bus without committing any individual track to a printed track. Nothing wrong with any of this and it's the same mindset they apply to effects. When recording, monitor wet and record dry. Presonus, Mackie, Behringer, Allen & Heath, Yamaha, Peavey and all the other manufacturers are getting rich off that mindset by constantly introducing new products with more and more routing features.

Daily, there are literally hundreds of thousands musicians that will dial in the perfect guitar effect, get a phenomenal drum sound, monitor a killer vocal - and record them dry (without effects) and have to recreate the effect during the mixdown process.

The simple truth about BIAB is one can generate 70 instruments across 30 tracks in just minutes and unless you tell it, no one will know you did it all in BIAB and no other software program or DAW was involved.

It's like using presets (actually, it is using presets, programmed by PGMusic staff) in any other software. But brand it with Waves, Ozone, CLA or EZ Drummer and the mindset is completely different and acceptable of presets.

Like using presets, unless you are experienced and knowledgeable, in most cases, professionally designed presets will yield better results than a hobbyist can turn out from scratch. And that's the end result of using BIAB as a multi track recorder.




Edited by Charlie Fogle (06/18/19 12:51 PM)
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#541619 - 06/18/19 12:46 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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<<< I do intend to get it in spite of it's $38 price because I'm sure it'll be well worth it for me to have both now and in the future. So, thanks again for telling me about it. >>>

You can't buy my copy for $38. I can't speak to how useful you'll find it, but it's a valued and useful resource I reference and apply in my studio work.
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#541628 - 06/18/19 02:08 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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muzikluver Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
EDIT: Y'all posted to ignore BIAB while I was writing this...… Ignore it if you want but it's a different take on BIAB than most people give. wink

Thanks, Charlie, for sharing these insights. I'm not going to ignore any of your posts on BiaB or on anything else, for that matter because your contributions to this discussion have always been very informative and worth reading. My comment about ignoring BiaB was primarily intended for Silvertones who seems to get irritated whenever someone mentions BiaB because he's not interested discussing or even in reading about BiaB---especially because RB is the primary focus of this thread and this forum. So, I'm just trying to be an all-inclusive peacemaker (if such a thing is possible).cool

It's obvious from all of your posts and especially from this one that your knowledge of and experience in using BiaB is very extensive, which is admirable. However, I'm wondering if you ever do use RB and, if so, under what circumstances would you find it more beneficial to use RB instead of BiaB?
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#541636 - 06/18/19 03:03 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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silvertones Offline
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I'll do the big xml and see what happens. It'll be tomorrow probably
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#541637 - 06/18/19 03:07 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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LOL, yea, I made my post and saw the earlier posts and I'm like No, no, no

I spent a bit of time writing my post up and wasn't about to just delete it...

I understand what everyone was saying about all the posts getting jumbled and discussions going off on various little trails.

I made my post edit in large bold letters in good humor, not upset at all --

In fact, i'd come back to the thread to copy/paste some comments made in the FAQ by Dr. Gannon at the release of 2019 about some of those features I discuss above.

Here's his Q & A comments:

Q. I’d like to be able to make styles that have more than 7 instruments.

A. We now added the ability to have up to 70 instruments, which is 10x the usual limit. This is accomplished by using the Medley feature which has been added to the StyleMaker. You can select up to 10 RealTracks for each of the seven instrument slots. You can assign volumes to each one (using dB offsets).


Q. I use the Medley feature, to make medleys of RealTracks, but there’s no way to control relative volumes of each RealTracks. The Sax soloist might be louder than the mandolin soloist – what to do?

A. We’ve added a volume control to each of the Medley RealTracks.


Q. I’d like to make styles with instruments that change during the style. For example, I might want the bass track to change from one funk groove to another, every part marker.

A. We’ve added medleys to the StyleMaker. So you can have different bass RealTracks on the bass track, changing each part marker if you want.



----------------

When you're using BIAB for inspiration or to jumpstart song ideas - The BIAB version of the StyleMaker can't be beat. The StyleMaker along with the Medley feature and applying multi track techniques provide super fast opportunities to audition RealTracks, sketch out ideas, experiment with various instruments without technology, menus, creating new tracks, labels, etc ever interrupting the creative flow if it's going.

The BIAB version of the StyleMaker includes a additional Play radio button that allows the selected Style, midi, supermidi or RealTrack or one the combo Styles or Medley Style to play over your Chord Progression populating the Main Scree Chord Chart, tempo (if specified), Key and Progression.


It's amazing and enlightening how different from the Style Demo the Style can sound over your Chord Progression. Try it for sure. Select any Style in the BIAB StylePicker and audition the large Play Radio Button and it will play a selection of the Style song Demo. The smaller Play Radio Button will play the Style over your Chords. The difference will amaze you.
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#541650 - 06/18/19 04:18 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: silvertones]
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muzikluver Offline
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Originally Posted By: silvertones
I'll do the big xml and see what happens. It'll be tomorrow probably

Looking forward to it. Thanks for taking time out to do this.
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#541653 - 06/18/19 04:38 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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muzikluver Offline
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Quote:
LOL, yea, I made my post and saw the earlier posts and I'm like No, no, no

I spent a bit of time writing my post up and wasn't about to just delete it...

I understand what everyone was saying about all the posts getting jumbled and discussions going off on various little trails.

I made my post edit in large bold letters in good humor, not upset at all --

That's good. I'm glad to know that!

Quote:
In fact, i'd come back to the thread to copy/paste some comments made in the FAQ by Dr. Gannon at the release of 2019 about some of those features I discuss above.

Here's his Q & A comments:

Q. I’d like to be able to make styles that have more than 7 instruments.

A. We now added the ability to have up to 70 instruments, which is 10x the usual limit. This is accomplished by using the Medley feature which has been added to the StyleMaker. You can select up to 10 RealTracks for each of the seven instrument slots. You can assign volumes to each one (using dB offsets).


Q. I use the Medley feature, to make medleys of RealTracks, but there’s no way to control relative volumes of each RealTracks. The Sax soloist might be louder than the mandolin soloist – what to do?

A. We’ve added a volume control to each of the Medley RealTracks.


Q. I’d like to make styles with instruments that change during the style. For example, I might want the bass track to change from one funk groove to another, every part marker.

A. We’ve added medleys to the StyleMaker. So you can have different bass RealTracks on the bass track, changing each part marker if you want.

It will probably be a while before I'll be able to take advantage of these features, but it's good to know that they exist.

Quote:
When you're using BIAB for inspiration or to jumpstart song ideas - The BIAB version of the StyleMaker can't be beat. The StyleMaker along with the Medley feature and applying multi track techniques provide super fast opportunities to audition RealTracks, sketch out ideas, experiment with various instruments without technology, menus, creating new tracks, labels, etc ever interrupting the creative flow if it's going.

The BIAB version of the StyleMaker includes a additional Play radio button that allows the selected Style, midi, supermidi or RealTrack or one the combo Styles or Medley Style to play over your Chord Progression populating the Main Scree Chord Chart, tempo (if specified), Key and Progression.

It's amazing and enlightening how different from the Style Demo the Style can sound over your Chord Progression. Try it for sure. Select any Style in the BIAB StylePicker and audition the large Play Radio Button and it will play a selection of the Style song Demo. The smaller Play Radio Button will play the Style over your Chords. The difference will amaze you.

I'll have to check that out the next time I use BiaB. I've already used the StyleMaker to change out a few instruments in a couple of the styles I was using to make them more suitable for my song, so I'm already familiar somewhat with this feature and found it to be very useful---especially considering the fact that I have the ProPAK edition, which only comes with about 300 RealTracks and nowhere near the number of styles that are in the other editions.
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#541658 - 06/18/19 05:21 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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MusicStudent Offline
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We seem to have concluded that BB and RB can be used to do anything and everything in regards to composing an opus, but... we still has the problem with the 255 bar limit and "Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 " has never been resolved?

Did we resolve anything in all this discussion? crazy . I certainly hope you guys have been having fun at least. grin
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#541661 - 06/18/19 05:41 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: MusicStudent]
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muzikluver Offline
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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
We seem to have concluded that BB and RB can be used to do anything and everything in regards to composing an opus, but... we still has the problem with the 255 bar limit and "Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 " has never been resolved?

Did we resolve anything in all this discussion? crazy . I certainly hope you guys have been having fun at least.

Oh, yeah, we're having lots of fun riding this horse, but for some reason, it keeps going around in circles.laugh

But to answer your question: Unfortunately, the original issue and topic of this thread has not been resolved. How can it be resolved if Tech Support isn't willing to look into it. I've only received one reply from Joe in TS, and that was a week ago. Plus, as I mentioned in my post about his reply, he didn't even say anything about RB or about this issue. So, I wrote him back that day or the next day and even followed up with another email two days ago, but all I've heard since last Tuesday is the sound of crickets and the wind blowing across the New Mexico desert.frown
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#541668 - 06/18/19 05:49 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: MusicStudent]
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muzikluver Offline
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MusicStudent, perhaps I shouldn't have said that Tech Support isn't willing to look into this issue because they may actually be doing that but just don't have anything to tell me yet. And that could be why I haven't heard from them again. To make sure this is indeed the case, I'll probably give them a call tomorrow to check on the status of my request for their support.
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#541669 - 06/18/19 05:51 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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You learned a very important lesson regarding PGMusic support service. Yes,in 20+ years, I have seen them turn over backwards to help at times, but more often then not, crickets. That is why this forum is so important and why you just have to find a way to adapt to the program and find a way to focus on your music. grin
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#541670 - 06/18/19 05:53 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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muzikluver Offline
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Charlie, you may have forgotten to answer my question about RB, so I'll ask it again. Do you ever use RB and, if so, under what circumstances would you find it more beneficial to use RB instead of BiaB?
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#541682 - 06/18/19 08:20 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Charlie, you may have forgotten to answer my question about RB, so I'll ask it again. Do you ever use RB and, if so, under what circumstances would you find it more beneficial to use RB instead of BiaB?


I did see that and overlooked replying. For most of the time I've been involved with using BIAB and RB, I used RB extensively on most projects. I use to publish a lot of my original songs in the User Showcase but my song production has slowed substantially. I also use to take old home recordings I made playing along with my late brother, and RB was invaluable in creating the tempo map to sync the audio with new BIAB RealTracks and midi instruments. I'd transform the old audio with just us two into a fully instrumented song. I used plug ins to gate noise, compressors and EQ and relied on RB for those tasks. RB has a more advanced tempo mapping program than BIAB plus being able to visually see the audio in the tracks is something I relied solely on RB to do. RB has two methods to manually tap tempo on imported audio tracks. I tend to also use RB to record my live audio for a recording if I'm recording 'in the box'. Most times I record live audio using a stand alone Tascam DP-24 and import the various tracks into A DAW for further processing. According to what the project's final destination is, I import to either RB or Studio One Professional. Usually into RB first to add RealTracks and Midi tracks. I used RB to construct completely unique lead solos, fills and riffs. One song I did, "Say I Do" has a guitar track with 126 punch ins. That can only be accomplished in two ways, record a live musician or use RB's multi riff function. Another thing the RB multi riff feature does that makes RB completely unique from any other DAW is it applies artificial intelligence algorithm to a multi riff overdub/punch in that analyzes small snippets of audio just prior to the punch in and just following the punch in and overwrites these areas with audio to blend the multi riff seamlessly into the audio. I don't use RB as much as I once did but only because I'm not publishing as many songs as I once was. I've posted a screen shot of a multi riff and you can see how it lists the number of ticks it's added to the multi riff to blend the song. There's no preceding ticks in this example because there's no audio preceding the multi riff.


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#541686 - 06/18/19 08:52 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: MusicStudent]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
We seem to have concluded that BB and RB can be used to do anything and everything in regards to composing an opus, but... we still has the problem with the 255 bar limit and "Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 " has never been resolved?

Did we resolve anything in all this discussion? crazy . I certainly hope you guys have been having fun at least. grin



Actually I did show how to resolve the 255 bar limit in my post on 6/17/19 8:43am and included a photo. The technique overcomes the bar limitation and the instability causing the erroneous glitch.



Both you and Muzikluver seemed to have missed it which indicates most others did too. I'll come back later and post the answer if you or Muzikluver haven't gone back and looked then returned here and posted the answer. I'm still having fun now... happy hunting. wink wink wink

EDIT: I think I solved it. I'll experiment tonight to test the theory.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (06/18/19 08:57 PM)
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#541688 - 06/18/19 09:26 PM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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muzikluver Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
We seem to have concluded that BB and RB can be used to do anything and everything in regards to composing an opus, but... we still has the problem with the 255 bar limit and "Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 " has never been resolved?

Did we resolve anything in all this discussion? crazy . I certainly hope you guys have been having fun at least. grin

Actually I did show how to resolve the 255 bar limit in my post on 6/17/19 8:43am and included a photo. The technique overcomes the bar limitation and the instability causing the erroneous glitch.

Both you and Muzikluver seemed to have missed it which indicates most others did too. I'll come back later and post the answer if you or Muzikluver haven't gone back and looked then returned here and posted the answer. I'm still having fun now... happy hunting. wink wink wink

EDIT: I think I solved it. I'll experiment tonight to test the theory.

I found and re-read your post. The time shown on my monitor is 5:43 am, which would have been Pacific time. The focus of your post was on the use of BiaB to generate sections of a song and then to progressively insert those sections into RB as the full-length song is being developed. The reason I didn't mention your post is that it doesn't mention the 255 bar limit specifically or the glitch and erroneous chord change at the 240/241 bar boundary in RB. Also, my understanding of your post is that you were presenting it as a workaround to all three of these issues rather than as an actual solution to them because BiaB and RB are being used in your post's example in such a way that avoids these three issues. Plus, because the focus of this thread is on the glitch and the erroneous chord change in RB that occurs during RB's generation of an arrangement for a song that has more than 255 (or 240?) bars in it, that's why I said that these issues weren't resolved. Instead, your post presents procedural steps for use in RB that will prevent these issues from being manifested.
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#541742 - 06/19/19 07:01 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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<<<The focus of your post was on the use of BiaB to generate sections of a song and then to progressively insert those sections into RB as the full-length song is being developed.>>>


Yes, exactly. My post didn't mention the 255 bar limit specifically or the erroneous chord change the 240/241 bar boundary in RB because applying the technique described in my post prevents either of those circumstances from happening.

Applying the technique described in my post will fix the issue in your current project and avoid the generation limitations present in both BIAB and RB from occurring and prevents both issues from manifesting in any future projects, regardless of which program you use. In my opinion, if using this technique fixes your current issue and prevents the issue from occurring in all of your future projects, that is an actual solution and all three issues are resolved. You'll need to explain if I'm still misunderstanding.

What I presented to you is not a workaround but a change to the best practices of your workflow and solves these problems. It's the same as reducing the gain on a channel to prevent clipping is not a workaround but a best practice of your workflow that fixes the current clipping issue and your knowledge and application of turning the gain knob down and properly setting the channel gain in future projects prevents clipping from even occurring.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (06/19/19 07:03 AM)
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#541749 - 06/19/19 07:19 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
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silvertones Offline
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Tom I loaded your 322 bar xml file. Here is what I got.
1. all of the chords on the chord sheet were correct all the way to 322.
2. Track 1 was a midi track labeled cello 43 BUT there were no midi notes for the melody.The same issue with the shorter song you sent. I was able of course to load the short song into BIAB and there WAS a melody,grrr.
3. I generated a RT and it does it in 2 parts
A. Bar 1-239
B. bar 241 to the end. yes ther's agap between 240-241. Bar 240 is empty
C. bar 241 per the pdf should still be Dm but isn't
4. Regenerating makes no change
5. adding the Dm chord on all measures has no effect.
My conclusion:
1. RB can't properly open XML files no matter what length.
2. It can do songs from scratch or cut/paste past 235 and does generate properly.
Please send you XML file to the Foggle's to see if their results match mine. The variable I can't test is the XML file. A known good one would be helpfull.
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#541754 - 06/19/19 07:49 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: silvertones]
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muzikluver Offline
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Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Thanks, Silvertones, for sharing your test results on my XML song files. A summary of my test results for the 322 bar file is below. I'm willing to ask one or both of the Fogles to test these files as well if either one or both of them are interested.

1. I reopened the 322 bar file and did see the first track as a mid track (blue) that is labelled as "Cello 43." I also was able to hear the melody and see the progression of "notes." So, I don't know why this didn't happen for you.

2. In my previous test, I didn't have a gap between bars 240-241 with bar 240 being empty when I generated tracks.

3. The chord in bar 241 (per the last chord change at bar 238) that was supposed to be a Dm sounded like a C during playback. Inserting a Dm chord into bar 241 and regenerating tracks removed the C chord sound but left a brief glitch at the boundary of bar 240/241.


Edited by muzikluver (06/19/19 07:50 AM)
Edit Reason: Changed "either" to "one"
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#541755 - 06/19/19 07:49 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: muzikluver]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 8020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 8020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I will talk to Jeff about this.
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#541756 - 06/19/19 07:51 AM [RealBand] Re: Glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241 [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 232
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
muzikluver Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/17/18
Posts: 232
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Sure, just invite him to our private discussion if he's interested.
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