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#547430 - 07/30/19 09:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 12/20/00
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jford Online   content
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As I understand it, in BIAB, you can mix and match default a GM soft synth and VSTi synths, but you can't mix and match an external hardware synth and VST synths, because there is only one output MIDI port (unlike in Realband). Because Coolsoft Virtual MIDI synth presents itself virtually as if it were an external hardware synth (even though it uses your sound card for its output), that's how BIAB sees it and so the hardware synth rule applies.

I didn't go back and read all four pages of posts, but if you install something like VSTSynthfont (which will not present itself as a virtual hardware synth), you can run Timbres of Heaven soundfont in VSTSynthfont, and concurrently use Kontakt or some other VSTi on other tracks.
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#547441 - 07/30/19 10:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
NigelSpiers Offline
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Hi John,

Thanks for this tip - and I assume if I install VSTSynthfont with Timbres of Heaven soundfont I can then mix and match Real Tracks with MIDI tracks without them going out of time - is this correct?

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

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#547454 - 07/30/19 11:32 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 12/20/00
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jford Online   content
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Nigel, you should be able to, although as with anything, it depends on your computer and sound card settings. But I mix and match RTs and MIDI all the time without going out of sync.
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#547467 - 07/30/19 01:34 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 910
Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Posts: 910
Loc: Cornwall UK
Hi John

Thanks for coming in on this.
I had not come across this, as I don’t normally mix real and midi. But its good to be aware.
The timbres of heaven sound font in Vstsynthfont seems like a good one.

I guess the other reason I had not come across this, is in BIAB I often use the Yamaha XG lite vsti that I uploaded and its pat file to select higher banks, as my default synth.
Then off course I have no probs with mixed real content,
Thanks again for your help and interest.
Mike
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#547798 - 08/01/19 10:43 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
Hi John & Mike,

OK - so I purchased Kontakt 6 this week and tried out the Factory Instruments that are bundled with it - appalling - much worse than Coyote!

So I purchased a Big Fish Audio set of Instruments called "Crossroads Blues". When I played them in Kontakt they sounded fine. However when I then go into BIAB and load an all MIDI style and then link each instrument in the Plugin window to the Big Fish Crossroads Blues instruments (making sure I set the MIDI channel correctly for each instrument i.e. 3 for Piano, 7 for Guitar etc) it plays a cacophony of pre-recorded random sounds, phrases and rhythms which have nothing at all to do with the BIAB style and are not musical at all!

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your assistance.

Best Regards

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#547816 - 08/02/19 05:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 12/10/15
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Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Hi Nigel

Not sure what your problem is but all I can say there is two ways of doing this.

Set up a Kontakt multi to insert in BIAB once and chose your channel for each instrument in the multi.


Or my preferred method,
Insert multiple separate instances of Kontakt for each BIAB track and set those individual instances Kontakt input to match the BIAB ch numbers one at a time.
Mike
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#547817 - 08/02/19 05:45 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4969
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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I prefer hardware synths. There is practically no latency, they do not tax your computer CPU because everything is stored in the synth itself instead of having to 'do the math' for every note, nuance, and change in the MIDI stream, you can mix and match at will because they all have about the same latency (about 5ms) and when the OS changes, the synths still work (synths I bought when Windows 3.1 was new still work) --- but most of all IMHO they sound better.

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#547820 - 08/02/19 06:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
Hi Guys,

Thanks for your suggestions.

I note that when I play the instruments in the "Crossroads Blues" library in Kontakt they play not single notes as I expected but phrases and the instruments are labelled Guitar - Verse 1, Verse Two, Intro, Ending etc. So when they are triggered by BIAB I think they are playing these phrases rather then the notes dictated in the BIAB style.

This non-GM MIDI and buying Instrument libraries is all new to me. So I may be entirely wrong with my above thoughts and further more I may have purchased an Instrument library not designed to be used with BIAB.

If you have purchased a Kontakt (non Native Instruments) library and it works well with BIAB Midi styles and has very high quality instrument sounds (as good or better than the BIAB Real Tracks) then I would love to hear your thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

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#547821 - 08/02/19 06:28 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 189
Hi Bob,

Thanks for your suggestion of a hardware Synth.

I used to use an SD2 hardware Synth many years ago before Real Tracks came along and it was fine at the time.

But I have been spoiled by the Real Tracks and I now want the same or better instrument and playing quality for BIAB MIDI Styles - hence my trip down the Kontakt route.

Best Regards
Nigel

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#547827 - 08/02/19 06:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13377
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Hi Nigel,

As far as I know there are no GM modules for Kontakt.

I have Kontakt and a lot of third party patches for it and most all of them are better then the Kontakt Library, which is quite old now. Let use know what sounds you are looking for and we can point you in the right direction.

PS - you might want to start a new thread with something like sounds for Kontakt as its title as some Kontakt owners might not be following this thread.
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#547842 - 08/02/19 08:20 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11755
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Online   content
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11755
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The Kontakt factory library content is just okay; I hardly ever use. They are just basic sounds; not the high quality sounds that sound designers try to produce. It comes with Kontakt, so you have something to start of with, but better are other Kontakt libraries. I've got some phenomenal sounds that run in Kontakt and wouldn't trade them for the world.

The good news is that now that you have the full Kontakt, you will later be offered some pretty good sales on other libraries from Native Instruments. Session Brass, Session Strings, Session Guitarist, Symphony Series are all pretty cool. And then add libraries from Indiginus and Realitone, and other vendors. While there is a lot of free Kontakt content out there, you can also drop a lot of dollars as well, but there's some pretty cool stuff.

I've got the Komplete 12 Ultimate - Collector's Edition (which I've been upgrading each version since I bought Komplete Ultimate 8 several years ago).

Of course, they key is understanding that, as Mario said, Kontakt is not a GM module; you just use it for specific instruments. In BIAB and RealBand, you have to make sure you match the track channel to the channel you load an instrument on. Kontakt will not auto-load any instruments; you have to do it manually (as I'm sure you've found out).

Also, since it's not GM, you will also find that instrument ranges may differ from standard GM output, depending on the Kontakt instrument you select. There may also be key switches. That's why Kontakt works best when used on the Melody or Soloist track, as you have much better control over the notes played. The notes from styles are based on using a GM synth, and so your results may vary. It can be done on accompaniment tracks, but you just have to pay attention to what's being generated and marry it with an appropriate Kontakt sound library instrument.
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#547843 - 08/02/19 08:25 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 910
Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 910
Loc: Cornwall UK
Hi Nigel

I feel for you and your venture into buying Kontakt libraries
Many of them are mapped to the keyboard to do all sorts of things using key switching and are not therefore just single note.
I have a very good cine orchestra that plays major or minor legato or staccato chords on strings depending where you play it on the keyboard.
Obviously I cant use that to play midi notes from biab as a string instrument voice.

If I need really good midi voices better than my vsti or sound font players I use my Yamaha Clavinova CVP405 as an external synth, no latency and about 700 midi (using a pat file) voices including a full XG/ gm set.

Might be worth a thought to look out for a decent keyboard just make sure it has a full set of midi voice not just a few pianos

Here is a pic of my hook up this allows me to record from BIAB and includes ALL tracks midi & audio + mic etc. BIAB is set to send silent control chords from the chord sheet to my VH in the clavinova for vocals.

.


Attachments
35ksor5.jpg




Edited by Mike Head (08/02/19 08:28 AM)
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#547853 - 08/02/19 09:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19837
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Nigel, once you go down the software synth route, I can't help; others here will. But I'll just comment on your comment that you had an Edirol SD20. So did I. It really wasn't bad at all; for anyone not recognizing the name, it used the Roland sound set. The bigger brothers of this were the Edirol SD80, which I used for years, and the SD90 which Notes used. The sound set was only a little better (and the 90 handled audio; the 20 and 80 were just MIDI synths). I then made the next moves up, to the Roland Fantom and now to the Integra-7. But they are basically just improvements to that old SD-20, which was an improvement to the old 8080.

I also use a hardware MIDI synth, for the reasons Bob gave. I'm a composer and arranger, and I don't want to be bogged down by the computer. The hardware synth just works. No foolin' needed.
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#547857 - 08/02/19 10:31 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 06/08/05
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Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Nigel, I just looked up your Crossroads Blues library. It says it's a blues song construction kit and it consists of "100% live played, hand-made loops". What that means is it's similar to Real Tracks. You get 1, 2 or maybe even 4 bar phrases to use. Take guitar for example. They probably have loops of many different guitarists playing blues phrases using many different guitar types and they also give you all the different guitar midi instruments. All you need to do is understand the differences between using these loops and using the individual instruments. The only mistake you made is not realizing you loaded in loops into your instrument tracks rather than the midi instrument itself.


Now if you like blues styles, try those loops in Real Band I'll bet they sound very good. Big Fish Audio has a good reputation so don't worry, that library is solid. Biab also can use loops it's just if you want to construct a song just using loops then a DAW like RB is better suited for that.

EDIT

For your purposes, I'm totally wrong. I just checked this out further because I may be interested in it myself. This is all AUDIO loops, no midi so unless you still want to keep the audio loops, this is no good for you. There are other pure midi instrument sound libraries available so see if you can exchange this for one of those.

Bob
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#547858 - 08/02/19 10:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 1317
beatmaster Offline
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Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 1317
Sampletank

stands upin my opinion to a lot of other stuff really well , I have tried it against some hardware modules like sonic cell and ketron and its better in some areas than them.

Just putting another wee idea for you to look at .


Edited by beatmaster (08/02/19 10:37 AM)
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#547967 - 08/03/19 10:52 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 07/06/00
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
<...snip...>The bigger brothers of this were the Edirol SD80, which I used for years, and the SD90 which Notes used. <...snip...>

I also use a hardware MIDI synth, for the reasons Bob gave. I'm a composer and arranger, and I don't want to be bogged down by the computer. The hardware synth just works. No foolin' needed.

I still use the SD90, it's a great synth with some fantastic sounds.

I dabbled in soft-synths a few years ago, and really couldn't find any that sounded better than the hardware synths I own. But that was a few years ago.

Good luck with your soft synth quest. Let us know what you find, perhaps I'll be able to help another.

Notes
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#547968 - 08/03/19 10:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19837
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Yes, it's probably time I did another survey to see what's out there in software MIDI synths. One disadvantage of using a hardware MIDI synth like I do is that you can't render a song in BIAB; you must record the output in real time.
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#548109 - 08/04/19 06:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 07/06/00
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Yes, it's probably time I did another survey to see what's out there in software MIDI synths. One disadvantage of using a hardware MIDI synth like I do is that you can't render a song in BIAB; you must record the output in real time.


That's no problem for me.

The advantage after saving to MIDI is that I can stack a half dozen sound modules, all with the same latency (5-6ms), choose the best sounds from each (the bass from one module, the snare from another, the guitar yet another etc.), feed them through a mixer where I can adjust individual volumes and tones, and record them into Power Tracks Pro or another DAW, add a little BBE Sonic Maximizer plug in, and save as an audio file that sounds much, much better than what BiaB may have rendered.

It's a little extra play (some call it work) time, but the end results can be so much better. And playing around with the sound is fun anyway.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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#548114 - 08/04/19 08:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: Notes Norton]
Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 461
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
2bSolo Offline
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I don't have any tips as sophisticated as some of the forum members. But I have been working on a blues/soul project for the last year, and I have learned a couple of cheap and easy things you can use.

The Sampletank piano is pretty good when it's mixed. You can record it, copy it to another track, pan the tracks slightly and make one a little later than the other (offset-just a few milliseconds).

If you download Cakewalk, you can use the TTS piano and do the same thing.

I use Westwood Drums and MT Power Drums, depending upon the song. They sound great IMO.

If you learn how to do some Notation Editing and Piano Roll Editing in BIAB, you might like the results. You can get rid of notes that don't work and put in some you like. In Piano Roll, you can change the velocity (already mentioned) and create crescendos/decrescendos (swells and fades). That helps to get a more natural sound. If you decide to try editing, there are a few things to be careful about. If you PM me, I will share those with you.

Hope something here helps. Good luck on your journey.

2b
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#548116 - 08/04/19 09:27 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: How can I get a better sound from the MIDI styles? [Re: berntd]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Midi came out in 1983.A whole lot of water under the bridge. A lot to learn before purchasing a program like BIAB.If I were you I'd set BIAB aside and do all the learning about midi you can get your hands on. Even some experienced people are using VST and VSTi, and DX and DXi interchangeably. Even PG calls their plugin a VST. Which is wrong sort of.
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Check out our Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Mac packages page for all the purchase options available.

Having your order shipped? Your PG Music Inc. online account will list your purchase under "My Products" - you can download while you wait!

Band-in-a-Box® for Mac Patch Updates Ready! (2019 & 2020)

We've JUST released FREE Updates for existing Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2019 and 2020 program users!

Band-in-a-Box® 2020 Update - Build 407
Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Update - Build 323

What do these include?

Summary of changes for Band-in-a-Box® 2020 Update - Build 407: (get it here)
Fixed: RealDrums Quick List was empty if launched from main toolbar.
Improved: Bootup time is faster.
Fixed: It is not possible to type ^ (caret symbol for pushes) in chordsheet if using an Italian keyboard layout.
Fixed: Opening songs from older versions might misinterpret song title as ?.
Fixed: Buttons in Custom toolbar are not draggable.
Fixed: The time signature button on the main toolbar did not do anything.
Fixed: A maximum of 1990 MIDI events are loaded from a song file into the Melody or Soloist track.
Fixed: RealDrums Quick List menu item did not do anything.
Fixed: Find a Sub for RealDrums menu item did not do anything.
Fixed: Various problems with localized versions.
Fixed: Some style demos for the newest RealTracks would not play.
Fixed: Song title will be changed to ? when re-saving if it previously contained international characters like é or ©.

DAW Plugin 2.5.18
Fixed: "Open Recent" opened file chooser dialog
Fixed: Unfold feature not working with some songs
Fixed: Choruses not resetting when playback is stopped in DAW
Fixed: Chord superscripts
Fixed: Clicking zoom many times will crash standalone plugin
Fixed: Undo removes all chords after opening a song
Fixed: Buzzing sound in Studio One
Fixed: Plugin determining chord accidentals now matches main program
Fixed: Removed alert menu when sync playing tracks that are not up-to-date (generated).
Fixed: Cancelling generate made song lose "dirty" state
Fixed: All selected tracks should drag from the plugin
Fixed: Shortcut file feature not working always working. Support was also added for pgshortc.txt files
Fixed: Double clicking grey area in chord sheet started playback
Fixed: Bar highlighting skipped last chorus when the start bar is greater than 1
Fixed: Right-click on bar should first launch popup menu
Fixed: Double clicking anywhere on a track should open its picker
Added: About to File Menu
Added: "year" to plugin name
Fixed: remove sync tempo button if already synced
Fixed: improve 2 finger scroll (too fast)

Summary of changes for Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Update - Build 323: (get it here)
Fixed: Bootup time is faster.
Fixed: It is not possible to type ^ (caret symbol for pushes) in chordsheet if using an Italian keyboard layout.
Fixed: Opening songs from older versions might misinterpret song title as ?.
Fixed: The time signature button on the main toolbar did not do anything.
Fixed: A maximum of 1990 MIDI events are loaded from a song file into the Melody or Soloist track.
Fixed: Various problems with localized versions.

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