Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
You need to be logged in to post
Options
Index
#549315 - 08/14/19 04:47 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC
mrgeeze Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC

To create useful backing tracks Real Tracks changed the game.
For me BIAB grew from a home practice tool to something I could use for live performance.
My solo guitar career exists because of Real Tracks. Seriously.
Admittedly, its not much of a career, but that's not the fault of BIAB.

With real tracks I can quickly produce a working track with a bass, drums and one or two polyphonic instruments (keys,guitar). Normally I audition a few styles and tweak the instrument selection in BIAB.
I export the wav files to my DAW, do a little mixing and automation, set the limits.
From there I export an mp3 for use in gigging. Presto, voila, etc.
I can whip up a backing track suitable for use in live performance in an hour most of the time.
Pretty decent arrangements and very efficient use of time.
At present, I've got 75-100 tunes I can play live and another 50-100 I'm working up.

All along I've pretty much ignored midi because of my 1990's experience with it.
I know midi has come a long way since then.
I realize midi tracks give one significantly more granularity in modification
The ability to tweak a particular bass line and/or drum track at a particular bar is compelling.

I also know that with great power comes great responsibility.
Midi seems to have a not insignificant investment (some $$, more time) to get skillful at it.
I'm concerned that my track building time would expand from an hour a track to 2 days per track.
Not saying they wouldn't be better tracks, they just might not be that much better.

Perhaps where I'm at is good enough?

Would users who spent real time using both offer up some of their experiences?

What do some users think the future brings?

Thanks.
_________________________
win10 biab2019 quadi7 16gb 2TBssd
macbook pro 15 LogicProX Mbox Pro Audio Interface
Suhr Tele PRS C24 Quilter MicroPro Hd
Costadelmar sunglasses
KotoBuki high carbon left handed Sashimi knife

Top
#549496 - 08/14/19 06:39 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 5434
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Online   happy
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 5434
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Band-in-a-Box is beginning to have some competition. DAWs are starting to include arrangement tools. Sample libraries called song construction kits have audio loops of individual instruments and an example mix of all the instruments mixed together.

Despite all the audio choices MIDI will continue to be a vital tool. One small piece of good news. The MIDI standard 2.0 released January, 2019 at the Winter NAMM show includes provision for two-way communication between devices. That means soon devices and programs will talk to each other and automatically figure out what to do so they work together.

Even without MIDI 2.0, current midi instruments are easier to use with more user friendly features like built in patterns, presets, strum engines and effects.

A few years ago PG Music created a video demonstrating how RealTracks and MIDI can work together. The RealTrack plays most of the time but for the two bar break the RealTrack is silenced and a midi instrument plays the two bars on another track. After the two bars the RealTracks plays again.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2019 UltraPlusPak BiaB(637) RealBand(Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Top
#553665 - 09/08/19 10:32 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 109
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 109
Loc: Europe
I just witnessed a conference of the birds: Mr Fogle and mr Geeze. Both with some very solid arguments.

Realtracks are not just good. They are easy to use. You don’t have to mess with VST’s and you don’t have to tweak Kontakt, Sampletank and others or need to invest big.

This way Biab is a self contained complete software, without all the hassle and the fuss.

If you want to dig deeper, midi is inevitable, as Jim says. Tweaking the styles, getting those great sounding vst’s working...

For me, I want to give one example: Abbey Road drums by Native, the vintage drums, for instance. It sounds sooooo sweet. No realtrack can be as perfectly recorded as this.

I think there’s a midi revival, not only in the EDM realm. But to achieve this, MIDI should be much easier to use. For every it-enthusiast, there are ten musicians who just want their software to play well. And they are so right. The time I spent tweaking or trying to solve problems. If Biab and others just worked better, I would have spent that time playing. smile
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

Top
#553736 - 09/08/19 04:40 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I agree but how can midi be easier? All midi is is digital instructions telling a synth what to play and how to play it. This is all there is to midi....RIIGHT, haha. Trying to emulate a real instrument takes much more than simply entering the notes into notation. It's all the articulations, modulations, effects that takes it completely over the top. ANY Biab midi styles would sound awesome with several thousands worth of specialized synths just like your Abby Road drums. Multiply that by each instrument in a Biab midi style.

Implementing that is where all the complexities come from. What synth? That alone causes thousands upon thousands (millions?) of pages of questions from users of every piece of DAW software there is. How to set it up, how to get rid of latency, the computer isn't powerful enough and on and on and on. It's the software synth that means a user has to suddenly drop his instrument and turn himself into a computer nerd. GM was the answer to KISS'ing it but GM is very limited. Two piano choices, three guitar choices, very limited effects and so on. We need/want/require many more choices than that and all the software libraries are proprietary. No standardization at all and there never will be. Why? Because one company will implement a midi guitar totally different from another. The Midi Standard includes a whole bunch of unused CC's for that precise reason, to allow companies to develop their own way of creating sounds and some require a specific midi controller. Same with horns, stings, you name it. A top of the line brass library can cost $3,000 and you literally need a college degree and a lot of experience to get the most out of it. Studio quality sessions especially big budget movie soundtracks have a ton of midi in them and they sound awesome. BUT the user meaning US has to be a high level nerd to do it.

No way around it, my friend.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Top
#553785 - 09/09/19 01:45 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: jazzmammal]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 537
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 537
Loc: UK
It's like photoshop. Most of us can resize photographs, crop them and make basic adjustments to contrast and colour with simple programs.

But some of the amazing fakes that can be produced if you really know what you are doing demand skills and software beyond the average user.

I played for years with midi backing tracks from BIAB and PowerTracks played through a basic Roland Sound Canvas. For most pop songs and the like GM is adequate for live performance in a semi-pro world.

When it comes to tracks listened to 'cold' in a hi-fi (do we still use that term?) listening situation maybe GM midi is not up to it - hence the vast array of samples and synths and the need for a really sharp learning curve.

Top
#553802 - 09/09/19 05:15 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC
mrgeeze Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC
Jazzmammal,
I think your point is spot on.
MIDI is a significant investment both in time and $$$.
Orders of magnitude more than using Real Tracks and Styles

Personally, my forays in midi through the years have left me with little more than outdated hardware and software.
In other words junk. Wastes of time and $$$.
I've never gotten real great results.
Not good enough to capture in the studio or perform out live.

I am technically proficient ,I wrote software for 20+ years.

I'm still on the fence about it now looking at steel/pedal steel guitar midi libraries.
Honestly the $1k investment in $$$ doesn't bother me as much as the time factor.
I know what a pedal steel should (and should not) sound like.
I could spend days getting a bend or a glide to work properly in midi.

That scares me.


Real Tracks represent a MAJOR upgrade to BIAB.
They have significantly advanced my ability to play out.

Lets hope pgmusic continues to enhance this great feature.
It affords guitar players like me to focus on playing the guitar not messing with non-guitar stuff.
_________________________
win10 biab2019 quadi7 16gb 2TBssd
macbook pro 15 LogicProX Mbox Pro Audio Interface
Suhr Tele PRS C24 Quilter MicroPro Hd
Costadelmar sunglasses
KotoBuki high carbon left handed Sashimi knife

Top
#553819 - 09/09/19 07:23 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5217
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5217
Loc: South Carolina
Regardless of one's specific need for BIAB generated tracks, be it accompaniment, making covers or creating original songs, BIAB tracks benefits artists in three general ways.

1. Create a track or tracks using an instrument the artist cannot play.

2. Create a track or tracks using an instrument the artist can play but a BIAB session player performs it better.

3. Create a track or tracks using an instrument the artist can play proficiently but it is inconvenient to do so for some reason or other.


Regardless of one's specific need for BIAB generated tracks, be it accompaniment, making covers or creating original songs, BIAB can provide either MIDI or RealTracks. According to the need, desire for authenticity or level of musicianship of the artist will determine whether a MIDI track or RealTrack is the best solution.

To get the most from BIAB is to use both MIDI and RealTracks to their greatest benefit to the specific project. For instance, I believe Mrgeeze could improve his backing tracks without any cost just by learning and implementing how to create his bass track using both MIDI for specific riffs onto a RealTrack generated track that works except for certain bars needing a specific riff in various spots throughout the song. The supplied MIDI Synths included with BIAB have sufficient sounding Bass instruments for him to successfully complete such tasks. Pianos, synths and organs are all good candidates to utilize with what's already included with BIAB. Some MIDI will work in some songs without investing thousands of dollars. From what he's posted above, MrGeeze won't necessarily benefit from a huge investment in time and money into a MIDI setup but it's very likely he could benefit from utilizing MIDI in songs where what he already has in MIDI would help.
_________________________
BiaB Ultra Pak+ 2019:RB 2019 Build 5. Dell Inspiron AIO Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, 7th Generation AMD A9-9425 Processor Five Core 3100 Mhz and 16GB DDR4 Memory.

Top
#553822 - 09/09/19 07:39 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
As you know I use mostly MIDI in my songs but I can see a huge benefit for RT users if PGMusic would in individual notes for each RT instrument covering the entire range of said RT instrument. (note that I don't think that this has happened yet but if so just ignore this) This would make the blend of MIDI and RT more realistic as the MIDI notes would have the same tonal qualities of the RT. YMMV
_________________________
Your brain is a wonderful thing. It works 24/7/365 right from birth until the day you fall in love.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#553829 - 09/09/19 08:22 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
Tangmo Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
Midi can be made easier. Features already in BIAB such as "humanize" and "embellish melody" essentially edit (in effect) midi lines, and at least one of those is tweakable. These are examples of software changing the characteristics of a pre-written midi line.

Therefor, if it doesn't exist already, software could be used to more closely emulate the characteristics of a selected patch/instrument and be tweakable on-the-fly without a user having to get into the file itself to manually with complicated commands and language change the line to emulate realistic play. Hardware controllers can do this. Why can't software? Audio FX software often has the "look" of analogue. Why can't midi editing software "feel" more natural?

I'd only gotten so far with midi editing with a substantial learning curve facing a steeper one to get further before I shut down for a number of years. Now I'm practically back to square 1 in editing--especially since I haven't yet been able to load a midi file in DAW and produce sound.

Surely there either is or could be a software interface that could take the parameters of a selected instrument, provide some useful pre-sets, and allow "step-by-step" tweaking of multiple performance parameters in real-time--and do that more comfortably than opening the hood of a midi file with a more traditional editor. Stand-alone or as a VST, it might also simplify routing to patches and other beginner-unfriendly processes.

If anybody knows of such a beast, I'd love to hear about it.

I like and prefer Real Tracks. One major reason why (for composing/song-writing, anyway) is because "they" don't force me to have all the musical ideas. Another is that they are less "buggy". On occasion, a midi track doesn't seem to be "written" very well. But there are certainly arguments on the pro side to midi.
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Audiophile. Windows 10. Former user of old version. Prefer creating while learning over learning before creating. Passable, intermediate level acoustic rhythm guitar player. Songwriter, lyricist, composer loving all styles.

Top
#553864 - 09/09/19 03:43 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7945
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7945
Loc: GA USA
I'm technically oriented and have been recording/mixing off and on since 1965. Nowadays I'd rather spend the bulk my limited music time (we have multiple interests) writing, recording my wife, mixing and mastering. And the easiest way for me to do this is via RealTracks and RealDrums - with the occasional MST track thrown in. With splicing and dicing I can take multiple regens of RT's and create in the DAW what I'm looking for. Perhaps I am missing out on approaches that would improve our music but we are having big fun and for us that's what it's all about.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Bud
_________________________


Check out our BiaB SoundCloud songs!
J&B YouTube Sampler
J&B Website
Our album "All Over The Map" is on Apple Music, Spotify and others.

Top
#553876 - 09/09/19 04:30 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I'm technically oriented and have been recording/mixing off and on since 1965. Nowadays I'd rather spend the bulk my limited music time (we have multiple interests) writing, recording my wife, mixing and mastering. And the easiest way for me to do this is via RealTracks and RealDrums - with the occasional MST track thrown in. With splicing and dicing I can take multiple regens of RT's and create in the DAW what I'm looking for. Perhaps I am missing out on approaches that would improve our music but we are having big fun and for us that's what it's all about.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Bud


Number one is that your approach is producing songs that are radio ready IMHO so don't change a thing. I don't think that you are missing anything.

Two is that you are having fun and that is the name of the game, at least for me now. But I have more fun using MIDI and playing instruments than doing multiple regens and cutting and pasting them into a single track. Both your and mine are appropriate ways of making music. Different strokes for different folks.
_________________________
Your brain is a wonderful thing. It works 24/7/365 right from birth until the day you fall in love.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#553890 - 09/09/19 05:01 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: Tangmo]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Tangmo
Therefor, if it doesn't exist already, software could be used to more closely emulate the characteristics of a selected patch/instrument and be tweakable on-the-fly without a user having to get into the file itself to manually with complicated commands and language change the line to emulate realistic play. Hardware controllers can do this. Why can't software? Audio FX software often has the "look" of analogue. Why can't midi editing software "feel" more natural?


This question has come up on various forums for years by people who do not have a good understanding of midi. To start, it all begins with the original samples. You've heard of multisampled piano's? Some software/hardware will not talk about it meaning it's only one layer, others with say 3, 5, 6 or even 8 layers. What's the difference? Velocity and tone based on how hard the pianist hits the keys. If it's 8 layers they have to hit each individual key using 8 different levels of force. Manually with their finger. You try that sometime. Each layer is a separate recording and then those layers are put together and mapped. Ever read about a high end piano patch being 2 or 3 GIGS in size? That's why. More layers the bigger the file size is.

That means the more powerful computer you need with a ton of RAM to load it. It's the same with all instruments. Better sample recordings with more layers, the more control you can have. Take horns for example. They're not just straight tones. Oh no, they have falls, doits, slides, honks, lipping effects, tons of stuff that makes a sax sound like a sax or a trumpet sound like a trumpet. Each one of those has to be in the original sampled recording or else how could you possibly get it out of some piece of software? Is the software simply going to add a growl to a trumpet line? From where? It's not been recorded in the sample so where would that come from?

Similarly, if you have a piece of well written software to make a piano sound more realistic but the synth being used only has say, two layers of piano then no matter what that software does, it's not going to give you the different tonal characteristics you get from hitting a piano very softly then harder up to banging it with 20 pounds of force. This is why an 8 layer piano sample library can cost $1,000 by itself forget all the other instruments.

Mrgeeze mentioned steel guitars. One of the hardest instruments to emulate. It's not just pitch bend, it's how the player operates the levers and pedals while he's playing. Same as my piano example, how was the steel samples recorded? There's a big difference between how single notes are bent vs a chord and where on the neck it's being played.

No software is going to make up for how the original samples were recorded, it's called garbage in/garbage out. Many of these more difficult instruments have their own specialized controllers to get a correct emulated sound. AND, most importantly don't forget the skill of the musician doing it.
It's true the reason for all this is to allow otherwise very good players to be able to create tracks of instruments they don't play. BUT, they have to be good enough overall musicians to have a very good understanding of what goes into a good horn sound for example and use their own skill and understanding to emulate it believably.

You're talking about us schleps with little training in all this trying to come up with something realistic in our living rooms with maybe a few thousand bucks worth of equipment. And, watching a few YT vids showing how to do it given by a pro who's got a college degree in music production and who's been doing it in studios for years.

Ain't gonna happen easily, at least not yet. I fully appreciate how fast tech is improving so who knows what could be possible in a few years but right now, in a home PC that is affordable to us at vs a super computer running one off custom software in a university lab, there's nothing yet and may never be. Why? Because in spite of our passion for it as musicians this stuff is a tiny percentage of the overall computer market. Our passion is specialized and expensive and it's amazing to me that for the amount of money Biab costs we can get the results we get.

As you can see this stuff is not easy to explain in a few words. To reply to the comment that PGM should make the RT's available as single note samples, reread what I just wrote above. A recording session to play an instrument like we all think of, recording phrases, licks and solos is one thing. Setting up a recording session for sample recording for a software synth is a whole other thing.

Now you asking the artist to record one note at a time up and down the instrument. That's just for the basic note. To add all the other stuff as individual layers takes hours and hours of studio time which is why companies such as Native Instruments, IKMultimedia, East/West and all the others specialize in that. I'm not saying if PGM should or shouldn't do that, it's up to them but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To say they already have the RT recordings is irrelevant. They were not recorded with individual samples in mind and if you want to go into the wav file and simply cut out individual notes then reread what I wrote above again. Won't work, it will sound like a chopped up mess.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Top
#553918 - 09/09/19 05:58 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7945
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7945
Loc: GA USA
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I'm technically oriented and have been recording/mixing off and on since 1965. Nowadays I'd rather spend the bulk my limited music time (we have multiple interests) writing, recording my wife, mixing and mastering. And the easiest way for me to do this is via RealTracks and RealDrums - with the occasional MST track thrown in. With splicing and dicing I can take multiple regens of RT's and create in the DAW what I'm looking for. Perhaps I am missing out on approaches that would improve our music but we are having big fun and for us that's what it's all about.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Bud


Number one is that your approach is producing songs that are radio ready IMHO so don't change a thing. I don't think that you are missing anything.

Two is that you are having fun and that is the name of the game, at least for me now. But I have more fun using MIDI and playing instruments than doing multiple regens and cutting and pasting them into a single track. Both your and mine are appropriate ways of making music. Different strokes for different folks.

Thanks Mario. Were I half the musician you are I’d be a midi man all the way!

Bud
_________________________


Check out our BiaB SoundCloud songs!
J&B YouTube Sampler
J&B Website
Our album "All Over The Map" is on Apple Music, Spotify and others.

Top
#553942 - 09/09/19 08:33 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
Tangmo Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
Jazzmammal, your analysis is correct if you're talking about emulating a professional performance. I'm talking about capabilities already existing in midi editing being made more user friendly regardless of the samples/sounds. The quality and number of the sample(s) does not change the message that a midi file sends. Or maybe it does? I don't really know, but I think I'm right.

My own midi-editing was almost exclusively adding/subtracting notes, adjusting the length of a note, and re-positioning "events" to play different notes. The editor itself was capable of ending double-stops for monophonic instruments with a click. Instrument specific parameters? Beyond that, I could have (if able and willing) adjusted other parameters such as vibrato, fades, etc. I don't know if I could have made a trumpet growl, but with a combo of parameters, I could certainly get whatever sample I was using to deliver a more realistic "performance". Beyond that, BIAB did much of that work for me in writing the tracks. Humanized, embellished, and "intelligent".

To my understanding, this is the point where the quality and depth of the samples kicks in--not the midi data itself. It was just too blinking hard to do much more than I did--and that was hard enough to get started. My "wish" is simply for a better interface between user and midi-editing. You may be right that it is not forthcoming, but if it did, midi could be easier.

I'd be willing to pay as much as $199.99 for something that could deliver.


Edited by Tangmo (09/09/19 08:36 PM)
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Audiophile. Windows 10. Former user of old version. Prefer creating while learning over learning before creating. Passable, intermediate level acoustic rhythm guitar player. Songwriter, lyricist, composer loving all styles.

Top
#553987 - 09/10/19 05:59 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: jazzmammal]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
Expertly explained Bob.
_________________________
Your brain is a wonderful thing. It works 24/7/365 right from birth until the day you fall in love.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#553988 - 09/10/19 06:00 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
Thanx Bud. I wish that I could produce great sounds like you do.
_________________________
Your brain is a wonderful thing. It works 24/7/365 right from birth until the day you fall in love.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#553989 - 09/10/19 06:09 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: Tangmo]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12598
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Tangmo
Jazzmammal, your analysis is correct if you're talking about emulating a professional performance. I'm talking about capabilities already existing in midi editing being made more user friendly regardless of the samples/sounds. The quality and number of the sample(s) does not change the message that a midi file sends. Or maybe it does? I don't really know, but I think I'm right.

My own midi-editing was almost exclusively adding/subtracting notes, adjusting the length of a note, and re-positioning "events" to play different notes. The editor itself was capable of ending double-stops for monophonic instruments with a click. Instrument specific parameters? Beyond that, I could have (if able and willing) adjusted other parameters such as vibrato, fades, etc. I don't know if I could have made a trumpet growl, but with a combo of parameters, I could certainly get whatever sample I was using to deliver a more realistic "performance". Beyond that, BIAB did much of that work for me in writing the tracks. Humanized, embellished, and "intelligent".

To my understanding, this is the point where the quality and depth of the samples kicks in--not the midi data itself. It was just too blinking hard to do much more than I did--and that was hard enough to get started. My "wish" is simply for a better interface between user and midi-editing. You may be right that it is not forthcoming, but if it did, midi could be easier.

I'd be willing to pay as much as $199.99 for something that could deliver.


Tangmo, what you are asking for is already available in most DAWs. Cakewalk is free and will do all that you want. I use Presonus Studio One Pro and that also does a lot with MIDI, again as does most other high end DAWs. Also it is very easy to drag and drop an entire BiaB song into any DAW.

Lets keep Biab as it is and not turn it into a DAW. Let also have more MIDI super tracks, (what a dumb name for non-sequenced MIDI tracks!)
_________________________
Your brain is a wonderful thing. It works 24/7/365 right from birth until the day you fall in love.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#554074 - 09/10/19 12:49 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC
mrgeeze Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 214
Loc: on the edge of the sandbar-NC
Lets not overlook the midi performer, not as a technician but as a musician.

For discussion lets assume he/she is an excellent piano player.
No doubt the selection of a midi keyboard and appropriate piano sound library will be informed.
Most of their performance using midi will probably be within the realm of realistic piano playing.
"Believeable" if you will.


Now lets assume they want a Hammond B-3 with a leslie speaker sound.
A keyboard yes, but a very different type.
The fully weighted 88 they bought for Midi Chopin Etudes may be useless for playing Jimmy Smith lines.
Even with the right keyboard and library, there's no guarantee his organ stuff will ever be believable.
He has to think like a B-3 player. He has to know the sound he's after.

Consider the same player with a brass library, violin, or heaven forbid, a pedal steel library.

There's no telling what will come out. Some of it may be good.
Some may be less than good.
It may not be the "fault" of the library, but the fault of the musician.
Even though they are a great piano player, their pedal steel stuff may just suck.
Its really easy to suck on a pedal steel. I did for years.

One definitely wants high quality sampling of both the timbre of the instrument as well as the technique/embouchure of a good player in the midi library.
This costs money and is worth it.
JazzMammal hit the nail on the head.

A midi "player" ALSO needs some understanding/sympathy of the instrument in question to generate believable music.
Just because your midi keyboard has a pitch bend wheel does not make you Jeff Beck.

Midi- with great power comes great responsibility.

just my $02.
_________________________
win10 biab2019 quadi7 16gb 2TBssd
macbook pro 15 LogicProX Mbox Pro Audio Interface
Suhr Tele PRS C24 Quilter MicroPro Hd
Costadelmar sunglasses
KotoBuki high carbon left handed Sashimi knife

Top
#554343 - 09/11/19 10:02 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
Tangmo Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 769
I'll leave off any further thoughts because I don't think minds are meeting. I'll only add that I am not trying to get PGMusic or BIAB do become something other than it is and does. ESPECIALLY since the only program on my computer (at least 2 media players, and 2 DAWs aside from RB) that will deliver sound when loading a midi file is BIAB. Midi shouldn't be that hard.
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Audiophile. Windows 10. Former user of old version. Prefer creating while learning over learning before creating. Passable, intermediate level acoustic rhythm guitar player. Songwriter, lyricist, composer loving all styles.

Top
#554597 - 09/13/19 11:35 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Real Tracks and Midi Tracks.... The passage of time [Re: mrgeeze]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7145
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
One very important thing I didn't talk about because my post was getting too long as it is, is how GM fits into this. GM stands for General Midi if you didn't know that already. It greatly simplifies midi but it also dumbs it down quite a bit. GM was really invented to allow computer users, mostly gamers, to share files with audio in them. Windows ships with a basic software GM sound library including a group of special effects mostly used for gaming. If I sent you an audio file and you double clicked on it Media Player would open and play it. It would sound exactly the same on your Windows system as it sounds on mine. No need for a DAW, a separate synth, none of that. Click on the file and it plays. Simple.

That relates to Biab because Biab is internally based on GM in the way it handles midi files. When you use a midi style, all that happens is Biab is generating a new midi file every time you hit Play. The problem with GM as it relates to your question is GM is also very limited in how many midi controllers are available. Biab can load and play most VST sound libraries but it can only use the limited GM midi controllers to modify the sound while that library really wants you to use it's own custom midi controllers to get the best out of that library. That means a lot of what you paid for with that library is lost if you're using Biab to play it. If you use that library with a good DAW, you have way more control over it especially if you use a good midi controller and you are also a good musician as Mrgeeze said.

To get back to your main point, Biab is already one of the best and most simplified automatic midi playback softwares available but like most of us here, you want more! Biab began years ago as midi only and I think it's fair to say Peter and the developers have taken the GM midi controls as far as they possibly can. GM is still very restrictive, it can only get you so far without completely dumping it and doing something else. But to do that puts us at the mercy of all the different VST libraries where they all use separate and individual midi implementation. That would be a real nightmare for users.

Something new on the horizon is after 20 odd years the new Midi 2.0 standard was just implemented. It's up to all the different manufacturers and software developers to implement it. I have no idea how that could affect Biab. Maybe it could change everything or change nothing.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac Build 315 Update Available!

Attention Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac users - a new FREE patch update (build 315) is available!
Review details and download here

Summary of changes for build 315 (Nov 15, 2019):

Fixed: Exporting MusicXML files was not working.
Fixed: When using "Auto-Hand split Piano track" feature, exported MIDI files contain wrong note durations on the Piano track.
Fixed: Note-based lyrics were not included when exporting MIDI files.
Fixed: User should be prompted to save their song when exiting, if they had added or removed plugins.
Fixed: The Record Audio dialog always says “Track type is Stereo” even if the track type is mono.
Fixed: The [Audio Options…] button in the Record Audio dialog was launching the Audio Devices dialog instead of the Audio Settings dialog.
Fixed: Loops dialog title bar displays wrong track name.
Fixed: Large patch map files are not completely loaded (were limited to 1985 patches).
Fixed: Notation context menu > Edit Section Text… did not do anything.
Fixed: Notation context menu > Insert Section Text… did not do anything.

My Favorite Things - Nudge Chords in Band-in-a-Box®

Love this time saving feature.

Ever fill in the chordsheet fully or for part of song, and then discover you want to add or take away an extra beat or more somewhere in the chordsheet.

Nudge chords (melody) from the Edit Menu is your friend here, the dialog will give you all the options either to remove or add beats where its needed.

Love it.
-musiclover

To learn more about this feature, read the "Advanced Chord Entry and Editing Features" topic when you click here.

Band-in-a-Box® Video Testimonial & Demo - Rodney Gene Junior

Band-in-a-Box® endorsing artist Rodney Gene Junior has shared his latest User Testimonial and Demo with us, and we LOVE it! Not only does Rodney share with the viewer his enthusiasm for our program, he also shares a few examples of how he uses Band-in-a-Box® too - make sure you check it out!

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Testimonial Video - Peter Torpey

Check out our latest Band-in-a-Box video testimonial, which takes using the program to a whole new level! Peter Torpey is a long time program user who has developed a way to work with the program, even though he's visually impaired - and he wants to make sure that others can too!
Click here to watch!

Learn more about Peter here.

View all our video testimonials here.

Want to make your own Testimonial? We'd love to see it! There's information on our Video Testimonials offer here.

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac Upgrade & Full Manuals Available!
Happy National Saxophone Day!

Today's the day we say "Happy Birthday" to Adolphe Sax, the creator of the Saxophone!
(Adolphe was born November 6, 1814 - 32 years later he patended his saxophone creation!)

We have 35 different RealTracks Sets available for Band-in-a-Box® that include Saxophone RealTracks !

RealTracks Set 304: Blues Shuffle Horn Section
RealTracks Set 294: Big Band "Crooner Shout" Soloist!
RealTracks Set 266: Jazz & Funk Potpourri
RealTracks Set 265: Crooner Ballad Big Band!
RealTracks Set 264: Crooner Bossa Big Band!
RealTracks Set 244: Jazz Background Horns with Jack Stafford
RealTracks Set 236: Cocktail Jazz Horns!
RealTracks Set 220: Flute and Saxes with Jack Stafford
RealTracks Set 217: Jazz Pollwinners 8 – Jazz Waltz Sax Solos
RealTracks Set 216: Jazz Pollwinners 7 – Swingin' Sax & Guitar Soloing
RealTracks Set 215: Jazz Pollwinners 6 – Sax & Guitar Soloing, Ballads & Bossas
RealTracks Set 209: Rockin' Blues Baritone Sax with Gary Smulyan
RealTracks Set 207: Funky Horns
RealTracks Set 194: Jazz Pollwinners 1: Great Saxes: Phil Woods & Gary
RealTracks Set 189: Blues Baritone Sax with Gary Smulyan
RealTracks Set 188: Slow Background Pop Horn Section
RealTracks Set 183: Country Soloists: Sax and More!
RealTracks Set 176: R&B Horns
RealTracks Set 175: Texas Blues-Rock: Smokin' Blues Sax
RealTracks Set 160: Jazz-Funk Movin'
RealTracks Set 145: Jazz-Funk Breezy
RealTracks Set 127: Groovin' Jazz Funk
RealTracks Set 91: Smooth Jazz - Sax Soloing
RealTracks Set 58: Jazz and Pop Waltzes
RealTracks Set 57: Jazz Swing, Laid Back
RealTracks Set 55: Fast Bebop Jazz
RealTracks Set 54: Slow Jazz Ballad
RealTracks Set 52: Fast Samba
RealTracks Set 51: Slow Bossas and More
RealTracks Set 32: Blues
RealTracks Set 19: Jazz Ballad
RealTracks Set 17: Bossa
RealTracks Set 15: Mainstream Swing
RealTracks Set 13: Older Jazz Swing Soloists
RealTracks Set 7: Acoustic Jazz Bass and Rock Sax

Which one is your favorite?

Check our our Saxophonist programs for Windows:
The Jazz Saxophonist
The Rock Saxophonist

Our Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac Special Ends October 31st

Our Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac special ENDS TODAY!!!
Order before 11:59PM PDT to save UP TO 50% when you purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Mac Upgrade... and receive a FREE Bonus PAK full of great Add-ons!

It's a GREAT time to order your upgrade to Band-in-a-Box 2019 for Mac, which is compatible with the just-released macOS Catalina - upgrades start at just $49!

We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2019 packages, but for more even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks) upgrade it to the 2019 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.

Forum Stats
30395 Members
62 Forums
60612 Topics
512693 Posts

Max Online: 2434 @ 11/14/17 12:37 AM
Newest Members
ichavis, Hooman, gilou7, WaltDan, LeroyNethan

30394 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
VideoTrack 200
Noel96 179
Matt Finley 172
Jim 128
Janice & Bud 121
MarioD 116
sslechta 115
Jim Fogle 109
rayc 103
floyd jane 98
Today's Birthdays
stupotmusic