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#550438 - 08/21/19 06:31 AM [Off-Topic] Is there still a career in music?
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Lucm Offline
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I think I have some very good ideas and write some really good tracks.

At least I did until I listened to the PG User Showcase Radio. I was shocked at the quality of many songs and now I wonder why those people aren't famous or what they are ever doing with their music. Is there any career still left in music nowadays?

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#550440 - 08/21/19 06:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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There's always a potential career for an artist. It takes a lot of talent, hard work, diligence, and healthy dose of luck and timing.

As for being a stand-alone songwriter who writes entirely for other artists (me), those days are over for the most part. The money just isn't there to make it a viable profession anymore.

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#550446 - 08/21/19 07:34 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Guitarhacker Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
I think I have some very good ideas and write some really good tracks.

At least I did until I listened to the PG User Showcase Radio. I was shocked at the quality of many songs and now I wonder why those people aren't famous or what they are ever doing with their music. Is there any career still left in music nowadays?



talent has nothing to do with being successful in todays music business. Not really. Good writers and singers are a dime a dozen. Just go to Nashville and go in the bars and listen to the performers.

But.... to answer the question.... Is there still a career in music? There can be. you just have to figure out where you want to put your efforts to make it happen.
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#550450 - 08/21/19 07:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Guitarhacker]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Good writers and singers are a dime a dozen. Just go to Nashville and go in the bars and listen to the performers.


Why aren't they famous? Why does bad other music get so much attention, fame, fortune and glory?

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#550451 - 08/21/19 07:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Deryk - PG Music Offline
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Unfortunately, just being talented and tremendously skilled isn't enough to be famous - and I don't think that's ever been the case, though these days it is more true than ever.

As Roger said - it takes a lot of talent, hard work, sacrifices - and a whole lot of luck. Meeting and knowing the right people, and being in the right place at the right time. I'd argue being famous is overrated as well. To be that in the music industry, you really do need to fit a certain sound, which I'm positive most users in the forum don't want to partake in, and that's okay.

I mean, there are some incredibly talented people on the forums - but they can't compete with Drake or Post Malone because it's just so wildly different, and that is what being a mainstream artist sounds like these days.

95% of music I listen to is either older stuff, or modern stuff that isn't on the mainstream's radar. You can still 'make it' as a music artist, it's just different than it used to be. There is definitely a market for all types of music but being famous just isn't what it once was in the music industry, since the internet changed it so much.
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#550455 - 08/21/19 08:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Good writers and singers are a dime a dozen. Just go to Nashville and go in the bars and listen to the performers.


Why aren't they famous? Why does bad other music get so much attention, fame, fortune and glory?


Talent has nothing to do with being famous, or being a successful artist. A lot of incredibly talented singers/songwriters see their careers fail because they have no business acumen. The music business is just that....a business. Record labels don't give a damn about talent, they care about making money. They're not going to invest in an artist who, for example, has a lazy work ethic....or who is disorganized and misses appointments/meetings...or is habitually late to the same....or has drug/alcohol issues, or bad temper...or who isn't incredibly active on social media, and effective at it.

Even if you do everything right, it's still incredibly hard to make it big. All the dominos have to line up and fall at the right time for it to happen.

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#550456 - 08/21/19 08:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Hi

Well music is a very broad brush and much of what is being said on here is just a case of Horses for Courses !

There is a lot of head banging, raping etc out there that sells and is popular and it sells, but it makes me cringe.

Most on here will write what I call good music, country, ballads, rock etc ,
But you can’t expect a head banging club DJ to play it.
In the same way you wouldn’t expect Liszt in a honky-tonk bar.
With the sheer amount and diversity of music of this and that flavour, it not suprising that a lot of good stuff gets lost along the way.

There are many different approaches. You can write what you like and hope to sell to like minded, (hard work)
Or you can sell your soul and write for commercial artist or specific markets, or more limited still, something like advertising jingles.
(still no saying it will work though )

Then there is the music that sometimes crosses over to another slot.

Like film music, the theme from Love Story became a hit in its own right.
As have many film themes.

The William Tell Overture done a few rounds for the Lone Ranger.

The Largo from the New world. now know by a lot of folk as the Hovis song due to being used on an advert.

And of course The Hall Of The Mountain King as the music fo an Arcade game Manic miner.


Just my thoughts
Mike


Edited by Mike Head (08/21/19 09:28 AM)
Edit Reason: extra thoughts
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#550495 - 08/21/19 10:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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JoanneCooper Offline
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I think there is still a career in music but you have to be prepared to do things a little differently.

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#550509 - 08/21/19 12:44 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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lambada Offline
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Most new businesses go bust. It's as much about being business savvy - particularly in the current music business world - I would think. Around 1985, I was doing a post grad management diploma and my project involved trying to market 2 bands in London. I was enthusiastic and got gigs etc etc at universities and clubs. I even interviewed the marketing manager at Crysalis Records. His advice (from memory) was, if you want to be successful get a good music business lawyer. He also explained how in those days you marketed bands in the UK really heavily, at a loss, trying to get record sales and airplay, and then hoped to flip them over into the US market where they made all their profits. It was all business. Unfortunately, I wasn't tough enough or old enough (particularly with the bands and clubs) and it became very stressful. One band broke up and the other went into oblivion - mainly because of egos - but partly probably me! It was fun watching my bands play live though. Almost like an alchemist!


Edited by lambada (08/21/19 12:46 PM)
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#550511 - 08/21/19 01:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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silvertones Offline
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There are many bands making great money and great music. Most people will never even hear of "them".You don't have to be a star to be successful. Ste real goals.
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#550515 - 08/21/19 01:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Guitarhacker]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
talent has nothing to do with being successful in todays music business.

It never did. There were plenty of folks more talented than the superstars of the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc.

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#550517 - 08/21/19 01:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Is there any career still left in music nowadays?

There are plenty of people making great money selling shovels and treasure maps to folks who dream of a career in music!

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#550518 - 08/21/19 01:15 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
I listened to the PG User Showcase Radio. I was shocked at the quality of many songs and now I wonder why those people aren't famous

One reason, in my opinion, is the stuff you hear in the showcase is in the style of music that was big in the past. I have yet to hear anything there that represents something fresh and new like you hear with modern music. Not to say it is not good music but Johnny Cash already did Johnny Cash and Metallica already did Metallica, etc.

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#550524 - 08/21/19 01:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Depends on what you mean.

Having a career and making it famous are two different things.

It's always been difficult to make a living as an artist of any kind, but plenty do it.

Agreed, "making it big" requires a lot of luck. Talent can be an asset, but isn't necessarily needed. Knowing the right people and being in the right place at the right time is more important.

I met Tom Scott one day about 30 years ago. He was leading the band for some superstars (Steve and Eydie) and just got a gig on TV. We got to talking about success.

He said (paraphrasing): There is a sax player playing in a Holiday Inn somewhere like Valparaiso Indiana that could put me in his back pocket but I was in the right place at the right time, I had the right connections, I showed up straight and could do the job.

Aside from making it big, if you play music at a local level and can carve out a niche for yourself, it's not as easy as it used to be, but still possible. If you can monetize your presence on the Internet that could work. You could be a DJ and even play along with the tracks if you want, I know a wind synth player who does this.

I could go on. Like any business, it's all about supply and demand. You need to see the demand and fill it better than the others. Timing is important too. In the early days the Internet was wide open, now it's flooded so you need more creative promotion to get noticed.

I'm still making a living doing music and nothing but music. In my area, I noticed a big retirement market, and decided to aim towards that in the early 1990s. I'm still working. Before that it was singles clubs, hotel lounges, and cruise ships. Plus I write aftermarket products for Band-in-a-Box at http://www.nortonmusic.com and for a while I gave private lessons to sax players and computer musicians.

I have a friend who is not a great musician, but is good at getting gigs. He farms out work to other musicians and takes a percentage of what they get paid.

Songwriting is tough. I remember reading stories about how songwriters tried to get past the 'gatekeepers' and to the artists back in the cassette days, like including something in the package as a tacit bribe to the gatekeeper.

But if you know a recording artist or are a relative to someone in a publishing company, it could be easy.

If your career doesn't involve being the next Kanye or Nicki it's possible to have a career in music, but not guaranteed. Most new businesses fail in the first 5 years. And if you are lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time with the right connections and can do the job you might make it big.

I almost made the big time once. I was in the opening act for major stars while their songs were #1 on Billboard and was in negotiations with a major label. The negotiations fell through over money (the label wanted all the money).

Still, I get up in the morning, go to bed at night, and in between do what I want to do. I make my living doing music and nothing but music. The house is paid off, and I'm definitely not living the life of luxury, but I'm free and happy. In other words, I'm successful.

So while it might not be as easy to have a career in music as it was decades ago, it's still possible, but it's never been guaranteed.

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#550529 - 08/21/19 02:21 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Deryk - PG Music]
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Janice & Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: Deryk - PG Music
Unfortunately, just being talented and tremendously skilled isn't enough to be famous - and I don't think that's ever been the case, though these days it is more true than ever.

As Roger said - it takes a lot of talent, hard work, sacrifices - and a whole lot of luck. Meeting and knowing the right people, and being in the right place at the right time. I'd argue being famous is overrated as well. To be that in the music industry, you really do need to fit a certain sound, which I'm positive most users in the forum don't want to partake in, and that's okay.

I mean, there are some incredibly talented people on the forums - but they can't compete with Drake or Post Malone because it's just so wildly different, and that is what being a mainstream artist sounds like these days.

95% of music I listen to is either older stuff, or modern stuff that isn't on the mainstream's radar. You can still 'make it' as a music artist, it's just different than it used to be. There is definitely a market for all types of music but being famous just isn't what it once was in the music industry, since the internet changed it so much.


Completely agree. I would add that there are so many genre's and sub-genre's in today's music world (Americana for example) that you can carve out a niche you are comfortable in and market yourself from that perspective. The Americana world has its charts, literature, web presence galore and award shows, etc. No, it's nothing remotely like the pop market but there are millions of folks that enjoy it and not all of them are old pharts like me smile

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#550531 - 08/21/19 02:33 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Teunis Offline
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In my little world things have changed a lot since the 80s. Through the 60s and 70s we used to get good money for gigs. There were plenty of gigs to be had in clubs, pubs, balls, football club dos, weddings, woodshed dances. If you wanted you could play for 3 to 5 nights a week and even do more in the daytime. Making money albeit not making it big. I can recall on a number of occasions being undercut by bands “that have made it”. For me I was happy doing what I was, being big was not it.

Then in the 90s I changed where I lived. Doing a pub gig for peanuts and a guy walked in and said they could do the job at a far cheaper rate. My attitude was I made $300+ in my day job why play for less than $50 per night. So I did less.

Also along came drum machines, and various ways to do electronic backing (BIAB for example) so band gigs dried up and one musician with good backing does the job often better for less than a band.

The really sad thing from my perspective is even more are simply downloading karaoke files from the net. Or, worse yet a music video or recording of some type and singing over the top of the recording artist. These folk also have the hide to call themselves music artists.

These days I am retired. I was not going to do anything anymore. But, “pro muso ” asked could I cover for him in a nursing home. I did it and was offered more gigs. I do the odd one but these guys do these gigs for peanuts. They must be dead set keen to try and live like that.

I guess all that is fairly negative but one can still eke out a living and or enjoy a good future in music. My wife’s grandson is studying at a Conservatorium at the moment. He is a brilliant guitar player and I feel sure he’ll make it just fine.

My thoughts
Tony



Edited by Teunis (08/21/19 02:37 PM)
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#551162 - 08/25/19 10:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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HearToLearn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Is there any career still left in music nowadays?


The short answer is Yes. In music, yes. In the music industry even more so.
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#551239 - 08/25/19 06:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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rockstar_not Offline
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I've made tons more money knowing how to mix and set up marginally complicated PA and video projection systems for a company that helps churches that meet in portable locations, than I have as a musician. Same with finding semi-old instruments that are listed as 'knob doesn't work, needs one string' type of electric guitars, doing a couple evenings of work on them, then selling them locally after they are setup properly, play nicely and sound plenty good enough.

I've made about the same tuning pianos.

Is that a career? Nope. But it is enough money to let me buy more instruments for my hobby as a musician! That's better than most people can say I guess. Latest is a Dean Boca 12 string electric guitar.

If I didn't have these alternative sources of income, I would probably not be having nearly as much fun making music that I like.

Again, not a career - but it is cheaper than paying a therapist!

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#551296 - 08/26/19 09:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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My father told me he was a part time radio broadcaster when he was going to college in Michigan in the 40's. He would broadcast live music shows by big bands as well as baseball games. He said there was a whole train of big bands coming through the upper Midwest at that time that in his opinion were better than Glen Miller or Benny Goodman or Tommy Dorsey. None were ever heard from again.

Nothing has changed since.

Bob
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#551298 - 08/26/19 09:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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There's a semantics issue on this thread that I feel needs to be commented on.

Asking "is there a career left in music" is akin to asking "is there a career left in sports".

There are a lot of different career paths and areas of the music business. Some of them remain viable. Some of them not so much. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if you want to be a performing artist, there are always ways to monetize what you do. If, on the other hand, you have aspirations of being a full time professional songwriter who writes for other artists exclusively, forget it.

It really all depends on what your definition of a career "in music" is.

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#551303 - 08/26/19 10:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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jazzmammal Offline
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It's hard to read exactly what a poster means when he posts a question like this. To me he means making it to a higher level than simply playing local gigs or being a music teacher which can both be described as having a career in music.

Some years ago I decided to check out some big websites that allowed people to create their own music promotion websites, host their songs and stuff like that. I wound up spending a whole Saturday doing that. Frankly it was simply amazing how good the production quality, songwriting quality and the performance quality was. I must have listened to a hundred songs in all genres and most were excellent.

A lot of them were produced by university music students using the schools full blown, fully professional recording studio. I had not even thought of that angle before this. Here we are on this forum talking about home studios, spending maybe a thousand dollars more or less on this stuff while there are literally thousands of music schools and universities all over the world with their own recording studios not with merely a few computers and software like we would have, oh no, they have hundreds of thousands of dollars of state of the art recording equipment including a TV studio with HD camera's and all that kind of thing.

At that time a few years ago I read it's something like 100,000 music and production school graduates with 4 year degrees come out looking for work every year. Just around me in the SoCal area there is the UCLA School of Music, the Grove School, USC, UC San Diego, UC Santa Barbara, Pepperdine, Loyola, more than I can think of right now and probably 100 community colleges and every one of them have music school and music production departments all with access to pro level recording studios. And this is just in one area of the world. Multiply that by New York, Chicago, Toronto, Mexico City, all the other big cities, then start to go world wide. All the European schools, all the Asian schools and it's just an enormous amount of people. EVERY YEAR. And every one of these graduates has the same goal, to "make it" in the music biz.

One final point to wrap this up. All these schools don't simply accept anybody. No, you have to audition for them. You have to show you already have some pretty awesome performance skills, songwriting skills, sight reading skills, vocal skills. IOW, you're damn good already to even get in much less actually graduate. Here's one vid I just found talking about the audition process at Berkleee in Boston. Songwriting comes up on this forum all the time. Here she mentions how the songwriting department at Berklee has been expanding by a lot. Here's the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGoKbQIxfew

This girl is more of a songwriter/singer, here's a guy doing his guitar audition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPlKvqdYkY

Watch the whole thing, the kids pretty good.

Multiply that by all the worldwide schools and then apply that to where you're at now and be honest with yourself.

The sheer numbers, talent level and ability of these grads are so heavily against you it's beyond ridiculous.

Bob

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#551659 - 08/28/19 09:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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silvertones Offline
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Wish me luck. First gig of the Rio Grande Valley season. RealBand is dying to rock. I've been on vacation for 2 months.
BTW going to be 102 today in Texas. Load is should be a ball. Lol
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#551818 - 08/29/19 02:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Good luck!!!

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#551823 - 08/29/19 03:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: jazzmammal]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
Depends on what you mean.
Having a career and making it famous are two different things.


Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
It's hard to read exactly what a poster means when he posts a question like this.


Hi. Original poster here.

My ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet.

I know, I know, it's old fashioned, nobody buys CDs anymore etc. But I am not entirely convinced. I for one buy CDs. Rarely, but that's because I rarely like anything anymore. I don't like the music that tops the charts nowadays.

And I have seen two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.

I know a lot of people think I am aiming at something impossible, but... what if (bear with me, WHAT IF) my music is actually good? What happens then? Is there still any possibility that I might catch someone's attention who might want to sign me up? Is being signed up still good? Is it better than being independent?

You see, I am not really much of a performer. I am a songwriter who wants to produce and record my own music. Playing generic gigs such as weddings or ballrooms is not in my plans. I want to write, record and release music first. Touring is not even in the building, much less on the table.

I don't think I am ever going to be big. My style is not very mainstream, it's more alternative. But I certainly hope to have a small but faithful following. Think about, for example, Dead Can Dance (before Gladiator for better perspective). They are not very famous. I only have one friend who even knows who they are. But they are successful. They're just... erm, "alternative." That's my goal, some modest success in the alternative arena.

(If you think that Dead Can Dance is not a good example, maybe it isn't. I spent more time trying to think up the name of some act that is not exactly famous but gets by and is well known enough to get my point across than I spent writing this whole post. How about the Tom Tom Club, is that better? Young Gods? Kristin Hersh? You get the picture.)

Anyway, that's what I want to do and I will probably do it, but I do wonder if it's really worth the effort because I might be just wasting my time etc. The dream is SO BIG even when I try to think small.

I am very grateful for all the replies. People in this forum are very, very nice. Thank you very very much.

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#551835 - 08/29/19 05:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 01/10/13
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chulaivet1966 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
[quote=Notes Norton]vMy ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet. Dead Can Dance is not a good example, maybe it isn't. I am very grateful for all the replies. People in this forum are very, very nice. Thank you very very much.


I just listened to some of the Dead Can Dance - Anastasis tracks.
I would certainly call it 'alternative', niche soundtrack type of genre.
They (that genre) have no musical appeal to me but that doesn't mean anything.
They do their thing and market themselves apparently with some success.

Maybe it's all about tenacious marketing of oneself utilizing the internet to hopefully find an actual demographic that will actually pay money so one can 'make a living' at it.
Being 72, I tend I see that path as futile. smile
If one's writing is 'not mainstream' that will be a rough road to hoe and one best gird thy loins for the long haul.

I certainly don't have a fan base for my song writing efforts and I don't market myself at all.
Guess my ego just isn't there to think I would have any mass appeal.

Technology and the internet has provided anyone and everyone the ability to do their thing and put it out there.
To you and all others that think they have what it takes to actually support oneself with their song writing efforts I'll wish you all the best of luck/success.

Carry on....

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#551985 - 08/30/19 03:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: chulaivet1966]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
I just listened to some of the Dead Can Dance - Anastasis tracks.
I would certainly call it 'alternative', niche soundtrack type of genre.

Thank you for your comment, but there was no need to listen to it. My point was just that they are not exactly famous. They caught some attention when they were involved in the Gladiator soundtrack, but I suppose they were forgotten soon after that. But they certainly have their following.

Everybody got so silent suddenly, which doesn't strike me as a good omen...


Edited by Lucm (08/30/19 03:28 PM)

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#552077 - 08/31/19 03:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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BlueAttitude Offline
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Ok, my opinion on this.

I think if you have expectations that you will sell a lot of CD's on your website, or that someone will hear your music and sign you to a deal, you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but do it for the right reasons. Do it because you love writing songs and making music, not because you think you might make a ton of money or get a deal.

As far as selling CD's go not many people buy CD's these days, they are pretty much obsolete. I have a good friend that plays in a band in the UK, top notch band, very good original songs. They have a couple of CD's but he tells me that his only sales are at the gigs they play, sort of a novelty item almost.

Even MP3 downloads are pretty much obsolete. These days it's all about streams. So you could maybe do a short run of physical CD's but concentrate on getting your music on the streaming platforms such as Spotify and iTunes. There are a few places that you can use to do that, I use CDBaby but they are no longer the only game in town.

But to start, why not unload some of your music to soundcloud and post them on the user showcase forum here? There is lots of good music there, some very good songwriters and people that know how to produce music, I'm sure you will get some good feedback.
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#552092 - 08/31/19 06:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Lucm Offline
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Finally someone mentions streaming. What took it so long? :-)

Streaming is the same as nothing. Even big celebrities can't make any money with streaming. I don't intend to get rich, just make enough to live, and streaming won't cut it.

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#552106 - 08/31/19 06:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Notes Norton]
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silvertones Offline
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Thanks Bob. I think you and I are on the same page. We make more money playing all the local venues while others wait to get famous.I think all this I want and should be famous cause I ve got all the gear to make a cd or whatever is crazy. There is a lot of bad stuff out there.


Edited by silvertones (08/31/19 06:53 AM)
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#552107 - 08/31/19 07:04 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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I mean this very kindly and respectfully, but your plan is completely unrealistic and it's very unlikely to work. If you'll indulge me, I'm going to dissect your post and address some things item by item.

Quote:

My ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet.
I know, I know, it's old fashioned, nobody buys CDs anymore etc. But I am not entirely convinced. I for one buy CDs. Rarely, but that's because I rarely like anything anymore. I don't like the music that tops the charts nowadays.


There's no statistical data that supports your theory. In fact, vinyl sales are poised to exceed CD sales in the near future.

Quote:
And I have seen two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.


Most independent artists still sell CDs at shows....it has become a novelty/merch item, not much different than t-shirts or baseball caps.

Quote:
I know a lot of people think I am aiming at something impossible, but... what if (bear with me, WHAT IF) my music is actually good? What happens then? Is there still any possibility that I might catch someone's attention who might want to sign me up? Is being signed up still good? Is it better than being independent?


Here's where your plan completely disintegrates. You asked about being signed....zero chance of that happening, because of what you said here:
Quote:
You see, I am not really much of a performer. I am a songwriter who wants to produce and record my own music. Playing generic gigs such as weddings or ballrooms is not in my plans. I want to write, record and release music first. Touring is not even in the building, much less on the table.

No record label in existence will sign an act who doesn't want to tour. Period. That's where the money is, and labels get a percentage of touring in the current business model (they're called "360 deals", because the label gets a percentage of every bit of the artists' income, including touring, publishing, writer royalties, merchandise, etc.). Record labels are in the business of making money - they don't care if your music is good or not. If they thought they could make money off of someone dressing up like a chicken and making flatulent sounds, they'd do it. That's just the reality of the music business.

You mentioned the two people in heavy metal bands who make a living selling CDs. You didn't elaborate, but I suspect they are in bands who play gigs/tour. That's how artists find an audience - it's by getting in front of people and performing.

The amount of music available now is astronomically high. Trying to find new music used to be looking for a needle in a haystack....now you're looking for the same needle in hundreds of thousands of haystacks. It's hard enough to accomplish when you are a performer. The chances that it could happen without that aspect of it are critically slim.

Could it happen? I suppose so. But you're more likely to buy a winning lottery ticket.

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#552127 - 08/31/19 09:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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chulaivet1966 Offline
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I think Roger summed it up very well.

I might be wrong or overlooking some aspects here but in reference to my previous post....

Before the internet existed and the development of new technologies (in this context) that allows any of us to record our own efforts at home with lofty goals of success only those that had time proven, well respected musicianship/song writing skills and were willing to tour were the ones we heard on radio and were producing albums for purchase.

Now....everyone that loves the process of song writing/recording has a medium for exposure....the internet.
Any previously necessary perceived skill level is no longer that relevant nor a determining criteria for promoting oneself or getting picked up/promoted by any label.
Hence....a saturated market where everyone somehow must set themselves apart from all others out there with any number of skill sets.
How does one accomplish that?....being connected over a period of time, having stellar musicianship skills, writing good mainstream songs and lots of luck.
Or, maybe I'm wrong on those points. smile

I have no illusions about my place in the music world.
I'm just a bottom feeder that has been playing/song writing for a long time and it's only creative therapy for this old bird.

Hope I made some sense....a good day to all.







Edited by chulaivet1966 (08/31/19 09:56 AM)

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#552218 - 08/31/19 02:01 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: silvertones]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: silvertones
...others wait to get famous. I think all this I want and should be famous cause I ve got all the gear to make a cd or whatever is crazy.

I never said that. Please don't distort my words. I find it rude.

Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
No record label in existence will sign an act who doesn't want to tour.

Now you, I don't think you are distorting my words, looks more like you misunderstand me. I never said I don't WANT to tour. I just think it's too early to think about that. Problem number 1: I am alone. I don't have any kind of band or support at all and I know I can't count on any for the time being.

Let me try just one more approach: how did the Gangnam Style guy ever monetize his instant success?

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#552226 - 08/31/19 02:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.

A lot of people say they are successful! I mean, the chances of you buying something from them goes from almost zero to zero instantly if they admit they are not successful! It is kinda like the sales guy at conference who is all hyped up and telling everyone who will listen how great he is doing and then you have a drink at the bar that evening with him and he is crying in his beer about how he is gonna need to get a real job if things don't improve next month.

Someone told you this is like buying a lottery ticket and that pretty much sums it up. You "might" get lucky and make some money but you also "might" win Lotto! (Spoiler alert: you won't!)

And that Gangnam Style guy? Simple. He won the lottery. Right time. Right place. Right dumb song. Millions have tried to do what he did and failed. And it is a thousand times harder to do what he did in today's clogged up media markets.

BUT, with that all said...Don't Give Up on your dream if you wanna pursue it! Be sure you are enjoying it and don't quit your day job but follow that dream if it makes you happy!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (08/31/19 02:18 PM)

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#552246 - 08/31/19 02:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Quote:
Now you, I don't think you are distorting my words, looks more like you misunderstand me. I never said I don't WANT to tour. I just think it's too early to think about that. Problem number 1: I am alone. I don't have any kind of band or support at all and I know I can't count on any for the time being.

Let me try just one more approach: how did the Gangnam Style guy ever monetize his instant success?


I didn't misunderstand you...my point remains the same.

If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal. You're trying to put the cart before the horse. It doesn't work like that, not anymore.

Let me give you a real world example. I have two peers, also professional songwriters. Very successful, great resumes'. They started working with a female singer, extremely talented...beautiful, great singer, etc. We have a friend who is a producer and runs a record label, so they approached him about getting her a deal. Keep in mind, these are all friends we're talking about, not total strangers.

The producer/label exec told them that before HE EVEN LISTENED TO HER MUSIC, he would need to see all of her social media data (# of twitter/instagram/facebook followers), the number of youtube likes/views she had, the number of streams she had on the Spotify's of the world, and (here's the most relevant part) her touring/performing schedule for the past 12 months. If those numbers were not what he expected them to be, he wasn't interested in listening to her music at all.

Labels don't want to spend money developing artists anymore, they want you to bring them the entire, complete package. They aren't interested in developing acts, they want to sign successful, touring artists/bands that they can jump in and make money off of pretty much from day one.

The Gangnam Style guy (whose name is Psy) was an artist in Korea, and that song was his 18th single. It was a pop culture phenomenon, and is the exception rather than the rule. As JohnJohnJohn alluded to, that guy is one of the lottery winners. I would also ask you what he has done internationally since that one song...answer, nothing.

At the end of the day, you'll have to do it yourself first, and touring/performing is a critical piece in the equation.

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#552306 - 08/31/19 06:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Roger Brown]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
...If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal.

If I type "famous bands that never toured" into a search engine, it gives me a list. Could these results be incorrect?
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#552311 - 08/31/19 06:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: VideoTrack]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
...If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal.

If I type "famous bands that never toured" into a search engine, it gives me a list. Could these results be incorrect?


A lot of bands/artists used to release music on cassettes and 8-track tapes, too.

The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.


Edited by Roger Brown (08/31/19 06:47 PM)

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#552317 - 08/31/19 07:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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jazzmammal Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Finally someone mentions streaming. What took it so long? :-)

Streaming is the same as nothing. Even big celebrities can't make any money with streaming. I don't intend to get rich, just make enough to live, and streaming won't cut it.


To give it to you bluntly, it's because EVERYBODY knows including you it's a complete waste of time. AND, selling CD's is also a complete waste of time ESPECIALLY since you're saying you're not a performer and not interested in touring. You just cut yourself off at the knees because gigging is about the ONLY way you even have a chance of selling enough CD's to matter.

I don't know of you've read Rogers comments in the copyright and streaming threads. All I can say is he's a total pro, he's been fighting for years to get streaming rates drastically increased. He actually knows and speaks to members of Congress and the Senate. He's at that serious of a level with this stuff and knows what he's talking about.

I'm the last person to tell someone to not follow their dreams because that's exactly what I did for about 15 years but it was all gigging and touring. I managed to make a "living" meaning I paid my rent, car payments and equipment but that's it. Zero benefits, zero savings, no retirement plan and it cost me big time in the long run.

All my musician friends bailed out a good ten years before I did, got college degrees, went into regular professional careers, bought houses and all retired about ten years ago with assets and a good income. Me, I'm the same age as them but I just retired two years ago with some savings, managed to buy a small house in a retirement community 120 miles outside of LA because it's affordable but still, I have a fraction of what they have.

After knocking around different jobs mainly selling cars I finally landed at a CPA firm doing taxes about 25 years ago. When I was a full time player the last thing I would have ever seen myself doing was taxes. How uncool is that? Turns out I liked it, took a lot of serious high level courses in it and made some good money. The thing is from a strictly financial pov, I should have done that 35 years ago, not 25. Those ten years makes a huge difference. Looking back on it would I have bailed out early too? Honestly no, I'm happy with what I did and if you feel the same way then go for it.

Try to do your thing and I seriously mean that. Give it a really good solid try but if you're concerned about your long term financial health then don't let yourself fall too far behind what is needed to have a good life, some good investments and be able to have a comfortable retirement when that time comes.

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (08/31/19 07:24 PM)
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#552318 - 08/31/19 07:36 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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rockstar_not Offline
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Used to be that you only had to send CD-Baby 5 copies; could be CD-R copies, of your music. I don't know if they still move physical product - I don't think so, but here's their 'get started' page.

https://members.cdbaby.com/sign-up

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#552343 - 09/01/19 03:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Roger Brown]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.

Not arguing that there may have been change, but exactly when did this happen? What were the catalysts?
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#552346 - 09/01/19 04:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: VideoTrack]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.

Not arguing that there may have been change, but exactly when did this happen? What were the catalysts?


The catalyst/change happened when people stopped buying music and transitioned to streaming. In the U.S., unlike most countries, record labels do not receive performance royalties from radio play. Their money was always made from product sales. When the marketplace changed, they had to change as well. So they started requiring artists to sign what are called 360 deals - this allows the label to make money from all aspects of an artists' career - whatever sales still exist, concert revenue, merch sales, publishing/songwriting royalties, etc.

Most artists make their primary income from touring. So if you don't tour, you have no value to a record label, because they have no way to make enough money to bother with you.

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#552358 - 09/01/19 06:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Belladonna Offline
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Wow!!! The cold hard facts can really destroy a young man's dreams. There was a song written one time called "Thank God for Unanswered Prayers" and I have some reflection on that title. Today, the music industry wants you to already have a large following based on your hard earned sweat. They want you to come to them already with a name that they can sell easily. They will take control of your life, require you to do what they want and take a big percentage of your earnings. If you can't or don't follow their dictates there's the next starry eyed performer waiting in the wings to take your place. Some people might remember you were famous once, but there's a new kid on the block now. It's all about the money they don't care about you and you're as only good as your last song. Meanwhile they've handcuffed all your creative works for a long time or forever. Maybe you could have done just as well on your own since you've built your own following, avoided all the stress and drama and the huge profits they took from your sweat and blood.
Doesn't sound like anything I'ld want to be involved in.

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#552361 - 09/01/19 06:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Belladonna]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Belladonna
.............. Today, the music industry wants you to already have a large following based on your hard earned sweat. They want you to come to them already with a name that they can sell easily. They will take control of your life, require you to do what they want and take a big percentage of your earnings. .............


This is not new as that was the same situation that I was faced with in the late 60's early 70's. I'm so glad that we had a lawyer that explained this to us. I am glad that music became my avocation and not my vocation.
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#552363 - 09/01/19 07:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Belladonna]
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Roger Brown Offline
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There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I would point out that it is the music "business", not music "benevolence", "beneficence", or "philanthropy".

Record labels exist to make money, no different than any other company or corporation. It's absolutely not the path for everyone, and believe me when I tell you there's a lot about it that I loathe. However, it also puts food on my table and a roof over my head, so I take the bad with the good.

My comments, btw, are not intended to be discouraging. As I said somewhere in this thread, there is always a way to monetize music and make some sort of living doing it. I was specifically addressing a theoretical business model that I simply don't believe will work, for the reasons I mentioned. I intended my thoughts to be taken and applied more along the lines of "well, if this plan won't work, I need to find a different plan."

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#552384 - 09/01/19 10:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Roger Brown]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
My comments, btw, are not intended to be discouraging.

DITTO for my comments! There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

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#552385 - 09/01/19 10:08 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Lucm Offline
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Looks like God decided to send a sign from up above. That or someone in Sample Swap reads this forum, knows my email address and has a nasty sense of humor.
This is my mailbox today, no kidding:


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#552438 - 09/01/19 04:50 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I'm glad I chose music as a vocation. I'm having a wonderful life.

I would have made more money if I stayed in electronics, but for the 5 years I spent as a field engineer for a cable TV manufacturer, I hated it.

I wake up in the morning, go to bed at night, and in between do what I want to do. I make a living doing what I would do for free, and I've been lucky enough to make a living at it since 1964. The house is paid off, I've taken vacations in 6 of the 7 continents, and for that I'm successful.

I've been to: 49 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), more than half the Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Australia, Russia, Japan and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). (Nicaragua, Japan and Russia were very short visits.) Austria and Germany are next.

I learn from my mistakes and thrive from my good decisions. I play to appreciative audiences, and love them, and they appreciate me.

I pride experience over possessions, I have enough possessions, but not a surplus of them, but I have extraordinary experiences.

However, the opportunities today are very different than they were in the 1960s. I don't know if it's possible or not to lead a charmed life like I've led so far.

Notes
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#552474 - 09/02/19 02:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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furry Offline
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I would say there is a career as long you can have a wide range of material, and be able to play what your audience asks for. I know lots of musicians in Scotland who make a living out of it. Weddings & dinner dances are a great source of income, and also playing for general dancing is always a good earner. Being able to supply cds is also a great way of topping up your fee. Present yourself well, always start on time and finish later if you're asked. NEVER give up a gig for a better paid one as that's just asking for trouble. Good dress sense always helps. Nothing's worse than seeing a scruffy musician
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#552492 - 09/02/19 06:25 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Graham gives good advice.

Remember (1) an independent musician or band is a small business, so the product should be what the audience wants and be better than the competition (2) every business is in the customer service business - give them what the want and don't give them any problems. OK sometimes problems happen, if they do, make them glad they had a problem.

The competition is fierce so think about what you can do to be better than your friends and/or competitors. Treat your customers like you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes. It's the only way to do business.

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#552504 - 09/02/19 07:02 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Guys, there's a substantial difference between playing covers and playing originals. There always has been, and always will be, a pretty good market for performing covers, assuming you follow the very good advice given by Graham and Bob.

Having a career based on original material, which is what the OP was asking about, is a lot tougher nut to crack. As saturated as the market is with cover bands/musicians, it is exponentially worse with bands/artists trying to break through with original material. Part of the problem with trying to monetize that is that you have to compete & deal with the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers who gleefully play for free, being conned into believing it's "good exposure."

Well, people die from exposure. And while you're up there trying to grab an indifferent audience's attention with your music, the club owners are selling drinks and raking in the money. This type of garbage is rampant in the area where I live - it pays off for literally no one, and yet the young & naive flock to these exploitative venues, willing to give away their talent for nothing more than empty promises and false hope that they might be "discovered".

I always ask aspiring musicians/songwriters this rhetorical question - if something can be had for free, what value does it have? The answer is nothing. Free has no value. I would encourage everyone to never allow yourself to be used & taken advantage of by greedy, selfish people.

I'll bet a lot of us on here have played weddings at some point....I've sure played my fair share of them. How many times have you seen a family spend literally thousands of $$, sometimes $10-15k or more, on a wedding - flowers, venue, catering, etc. - and yet when the band wants $500 for playing 5 hours, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth as though somehow you're gouging them. Happens all the time - because far too many musicians/bands are willing to compromise on the value of their talent.

Don't. What you do has value. Demand fair compensation for your work and talent, and don't compromise.

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#552519 - 09/02/19 09:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Belladonna Offline
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There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I would point out that it is the music "business", not music "benevolence", "beneficence", or "philanthropy". (Roger Brown)

I've been in business 40 some years and as a CPA worked with lots of businesses and companies. I'm not talking about philanthropy or non-profits here. A famous quote from Ben Franklin "You can do well, while doing good". Sorry to say the big commercial music business doesn't do so much good. They are cut throat, they take the creativity of young people and drain them all the while living like kings themselves. I met a music agent (an he was just the agent) who'ld represented some large and famous acts, whom I might say moved on from him, but he was very very rich and had homes in several states.

In my opinion they profit really large off the sweat equity of young, creative people seeking to be famous. I've heard people say well they still earned more than they would have on their own. Maybe that's true, however I'm sure they keep the lions share. All the while controlling your life to make the most money they can while you're still the hottest thing. No wonder so many musicians turn to drugs to deal with the stress.

Most musicians here are talking about doing their own thing, which I admire more and doing it their way on their own time and controlling their artistic works.

Being self-employed most of my life and earning my way, I am a champion of that. If you want to do the music business, do it your way. Also you have to be around and stay with it when everyone else is dropping out and at some point the longevity counts also.


Edited by Belladonna (09/02/19 09:14 AM)

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#552581 - 09/02/19 01:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Quote:
Sorry to say the big commercial music business doesn't do so much good. They are cut throat, they take the creativity of young people and drain them all the while living like kings themselves. I met a music agent (an he was just the agent) who'ld represented some large and famous acts, whom I might say moved on from him, but he was very very rich and had homes in several states.


I've been in the "big commercial music business" since 1985, as a songwriter, artist, producer, A&R rep, publisher, and publicist - for a number of large companies & major labels. There's a lot about it that I can (and do) criticize, but your description of it is a very broad stereotype. Are there crooks in the music business? Sure there are - there are also crooked lawyers, doctors, and accountants in the world. Every profession has its share of bad apples. The music/entertainment industry just has a lot more eyes & ears trained on what they're doing than most professions. Agents (I'm assuming you mean "manager" and not "booking agent") make 15% from the artists they represent, fwiw. Booking agents, usually between 10-15%. That's a pretty minimal amount for the work they do, and it is substantial when it's being done by legitimate, competent professionals.

Quote:
In my opinion they profit really large off the sweat equity of young, creative people seeking to be famous. I've heard people say well they still earned more than they would have on their own. Maybe that's true, however I'm sure they keep the lions share. All the while controlling your life to make the most money they can while you're still the hottest thing.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion. And you are correct in regards to record labels, they do keep the lions share. They also SPEND the lions share to promote the artist. For every artist signed to a record label, only 5-10% ever make the label any money. There are a lot more misses than there are successes.

Quote:
No wonder so many musicians turn to drugs to deal with the stress.


This is the only thing you said that I take vehement exception to, because it is conjecture and not factual, and because I have buried nearly a dozen peers in the business from drug/alcohol related deaths. Not a single one was related to career "stress". If anything, it was because they had addictive tendencies/personalities and gave into the many temptations and bad choices that were laid before them.



I was the first poster to respond on this thread....I said in that post:
Quote:
There's always a potential career for an artist. It takes a lot of talent, hard work, diligence, and healthy dose of luck and timing.
In that context, being an independent, self-contained artist/songwriter/producer/label is a great way to go, and I've encouraged artists to pursue that path more often than not.

The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned. I have to assume that is how he/she assesses having a successful career in music. If that is your dream/desire, then the rules change. If that's your goal, then you have to play by the rules whether you like and agree with them or not.

The exploitation of creators is nothing new....it goes back centuries. Every person has to make their own decision about how much they are willing to compromise to attain whatever success they seek. Personally, I'm very proud of the fact that I've been able to make a good living writing songs without sacrificing my morals, ethics, or integrity. I've met a lot of wonderful, generous, selfless people in the music industry, some of the best I've known from any walk of life. I've met scumbags as well, but not as many as you might think. I truly don't believe it's as bad as you perceive it to be.

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#552726 - 09/03/19 10:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Belladonna Offline
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I'm no psychiatrist and I've also seen a lot of deaths from alcohol and substance abuse. I'm sure it's not just as simple as being born with an addictive gene. There are outside factors and influences that make people susceptible and one of those is stress. In addition to an industry where there's always a party to go to and drugs and alcohol are everywhere with people encouraging all that to happen. How many country songs have we heard about heartbreak, loneliness, unhappiness and drugs and drinking (maybe stress related)?

I've heard many psychologists talk about vets with PTSD who became addicts and others who were self-medicating to cope with life and their issues. Many times it becomes their only escape and they become victims. This world is hard and some are not as strong as others, especially young people who's decision making facilities aren't fully developed in the brain until their late twenties.

Also, many American Indians ended up with alcohol problems after the white man arrived that they didn't have before. Many suspect they had the addiction gene, but it wasn't a problem before it was sooo available.

To my point of the relationship of stress, addictions and young famous musicians (not the only cause of course). Here's the post by a young famous musician on Instagram who's having a hard time with his life right now. It's all over the news, so go and read his post for yourself. He's telling it like it is for many young people. I'm just going to post some of the things he said.

It's hard to get out of bed in the morning with the right attitude when you are overwhelmed with your life, your past, job, responsibilities, emotions, family, finances, your relationships. When it feels like there's trouble after trouble. You start seeing the day through the lens of dread and anticipate another bad day. It's a cycle of disappointment. Sometimes it gets to the point when you don't want to live anymore. You can't see that it's ever going to change. I could not change my mindset.

"You see I have a lot of money, clothes, cars, accolaides, achievements, and awards and I am still unfulfilled.

Have u noticed the statistics of child stars and the outcome of their lives? There is an insane pressure and responsibility put on a young person who's brain, emotions, frontal lobes (decision making) aren't developed yet. They have no rationality, defiant, rebellious, things all of us have to go through. But when you add the pressure of stardom it does something to you that is quite unexplainable.

You see I didn't grow up in a stable home, my parents were separated. I had no money and was young and rebellious. My talent progressed and I became ultra successful, it happened within two years. My whole world was flipped on its head. I went from a 13 year old boy from a small town to being praised left and right by the world with millions saying how much they loved me and how great I was. You hear these things at a young age and you start to believe it.

I did't know that humility comes with age. Rationality and good decision making come with age (that's why it's illegal to drink until you're 21). Everyone did everything for me so I didn't learn the fundamentals of responsibility. By this time I was 19 with no skills in the world, with millions of dollars to spend and access to whatever I wanted. By age 20 I had made every bad decision possible and I went from being the most loved to being the most judged, ridiculed and hated person.

Being on stage is the biggest dopamine rush, so these massive ups and downs were hard to manage. You notice a lot of touring bands and people end up having a phase of drug abuse and I believe its due to not being able to manage the stress that comes with it.

I started doing pretty heavy drugs at 19 and abused all my relationships. I became resentful, disrespectful to women and angry. I became distant to everyone who loved me and hid behind the shell of a person I had become. It has taken me years to try to get back from all these bad decisions, fix broken relationships and change habits. Luckily God has blessed me with people who care and love me. I am now navigating the best season of my life, marriage. It's an amazing new responsibility of learning patience, trust, commitment, kindness, humility and all the things it takes to be a good man.

I just want to say when the odds are against you, keep fighting. Jesus loves you. Be kind today, be bold and love people not by your standards but by God's unfailing love.

I thought this was the greatest outpouring of someone who has been there and done it. However, he's lucky for the support he has. What about the many others who aren't that lucky? Does the industry in general care about these young people's lives or are they just a commodity to be used to make themselves rich? I'm sure some of them do as there are good people everywhere, but overall? Hmmmm!


Edited by Belladonna (09/03/19 10:48 AM)

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#552731 - 09/03/19 11:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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It's an issue we're just going to have to agree to disagree on apparently. Honor & respect your passion for what you believe!

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#552743 - 09/03/19 02:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Roger Brown]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned.

This is the second time I am misquoted. I never said any of those things.

I might have suggested some idea of fame, but just enough to get by, in the alternative scene. I have no hope of ever being big. If I could say, sell some 25,000 copies every year, I would be good. 25,000 worldwide is not that much. Some very alternative acts sell a million copies worldwide. Now consider that I know I can easily put out two or three albums a year, 25,000 looks even more doable. Still hard, but is it really impossible? Worldwide?

Well, let's see. I still appreciate all the replies. All of them.

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

Not only do I agree with this, it's exactly what I thought when I decided to come here and ask for advice. I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.

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#552745 - 09/03/19 02:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Roger Brown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned.

This is the second time I am misquoted. I never said any of those things.

I might have suggested some idea of fame, but just enough to get by, in the alternative scene. I have no hope of ever being big. If I could say, sell some 25,000 copies every year, I would be good. 25,000 worldwide is not that much. Some very alternative acts sell a million copies worldwide. Now consider that I know I can easily put out two or three albums a year, 25,000 looks even more doable. Still hard, but is it really impossible? Worldwide?

Well, let's see. I still appreciate all the replies. All of them.

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

Not only do I agree with this, it's exactly what I thought when I decided to come here and ask for advice. I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.



I'm sorry, but you absolutely referenced those things.

Here is your exact quote, from your post on page 1 of this thread....

Quote:
I was shocked at the quality of many songs and now I wonder why those people aren't famous or what they are ever doing with their music. Is there any career still left in music nowadays?


GuitarHacker replied with this:

Quote:
talent has nothing to do with being successful in todays music business. Not really. Good writers and singers are a dime a dozen. Just go to Nashville and go in the bars and listen to the performers.


and you replied with this:

Quote:
Why aren't they famous? Why does bad other music get so much attention, fame, fortune and glory?


Regardless of whether you intended it to sound like being famous was a part of your question, that's how it was presented and how I interpreted it.

You may not have intended it that way....but you absolutely said it. Those are your words, quoted from page 1.

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#552754 - 09/03/19 04:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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chulaivet1966 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
[quote=Roger Brown]I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.


I've read all responses here and I don't find one of them to be remotely 'harsh' at all.
I find all responses benign and merely being candid with respect to the title of your forum topic.
I tend to think if one actually solicits opinions of their their material on dedicated 'music critique' forums one's perceived definition of 'harsh' will certainly change. smile
Having a thick skin is something we all need to maintain in this context.

We're all adults here....all contributors have expressed their views based on their experiences and perceptions.
Even one who's been on the inside of the current industry and is familiar with the changes in the industry over the decades and protocols necessary that one must understand when pursuing a musical path to actually succeed and make money at any level.

As stated in my previous post....I wish you and all others the best of luck/success in their song writing endeavors.
Even myself smile which isn't likely to happen if I had two lifetimes because I don't write for mainstream appeal.
I write from the gut, try to tell a story with some lyrical continuity and convincing imagery....that's it.
Whether I succeed is up to the listeners....not me.

Just a thought....
Do you have a website with your original material that we may listen to?

Carry on....



Edited by chulaivet1966 (09/03/19 04:57 PM)

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#552757 - 09/03/19 05:29 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: chulaivet1966]
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Lucm Offline
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Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
Do you have a website with your original material that we may listen to?

No, not yet.

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#552761 - 09/03/19 05:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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edshaw Offline
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Lucm:
As a music business outsider and one whose professional days are behind me, I can't offer tested answers to your question; but common sense business principles don't change much. What's changing in the music business seems to be, well, just about everything.
These are the best of times, and the worst of times. The old ways of doing business are fading, giving way to new platforms, platforms which might turn out to be as treacherous as the former. I hope not. I'm talking about the new digital distribution formats and the internet, of course.
From the comments, we see a variety of life experiences in the traditional ways, (work the market, hope for a record deal, go on tour, live the life,) owned by
members of this forum. Not surprising, really, when you consider the amazing quality that gets posted. What's missing is nostalgia.
If we look at this new production and distribution model from a positive point of view, these are the best of times -- exciting, hazardous, unchartered. Just look at what some of the talking head news and current events commentators are doing with video! Some of them are now at the point they draw more views than some commercial television. I won't name names, but with censorship, these commentators are developing alternatives to YouTube.
Meanwhile, the music is re-runs of Hee-Haw and 150 ways to learn the pentatonic scales. What's wrong with this picture? On the bright side, it is no big deal any more to put your band on You Tube.
I'm suggesting musicians 1) get as good as you can get, 2) do as much media work as you can, with an eye toward mastery, 3) be patient and keep your ears and eyes open. Often, the best opportunities are already right in front of you.


Edited by edshaw (09/03/19 06:23 PM)
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#552763 - 09/03/19 05:54 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Belladonna Offline
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Regardless of who said what, everyone is giving their advice and opinions based on their experience and it's all with good intentions. Oh! if anyone is interested the famous musician I was referring in my prior post to Roger was Justin Bieber, take a look at his post on Instagram to get the view from a young performer about being famous in the music business.

Here are some reminders I live by.

1. Be ready for the next change. Nothing remains the same, Bud was talking about the 60s and some of us were talking about the business today. It will all change again, so the thing is to be ready for opportunities that arrive. Tastes change as we see with The Big Band Era, then the Doo Waps, then Elvis, the Beatles, the 60s, etc.

2. Hire a good music business lawyer if things get serious.

3. Keep at it and be there when everyone else has given up and left. Woody Allen said 90% of success was just showing up. Be the one who's always there. There's a lot to be said about longevity.

4. Redefine what success means to you in the meantime. I consider myself successful in my efforts as I've been involved in writing a couple albums in about eight years and I have written over 350 songs to date. I feel a sense of satisfaction of what I have done. In my younger years I could have never envisioned that I would have done anything like this.

5. Figure out what kind of a career you can have on your own, even with a day job.

6. Hitch your wagon to a star. Remember there were a lot of songs that became successful that were turned down by some big names in the industry. It took the right person to perform it. Hendrix made Bob Dylan's song "All Along the Watchtower" famous. Carlos Santana made Fleetwood Mac's "Black Magic Woman" famous. Julia Gold's song "From a Distance" was turned down many times. Also, remember Mel Gibson's Christian films that he was told wouldn't be a hit, so he did it himself and made tons of money. Hollywood was jealous. Against all odds anything can happen. Good luck.


Edited by Belladonna (09/03/19 06:14 PM)

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#552821 - 09/04/19 05:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Teunis Offline
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Hi, I haven’t watched this all the way through but I found it interesting in the context of this subject.

https://youtu.be/r0aeGQZhbn0

Rick Beato on How to make money out of music. Worth a look IMHO

Tony
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#552823 - 09/04/19 06:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Teunis]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Great discussion from Rick, who, BTW, is no johnny-come-lately to the industry.

His critical line was at 3:13 when he stated: "Nowadays, people who get signed ... are people who are already successful"

Notwithstanding, this shouldn't dampen the spirits of any enthusiastic singer/songwriter/performer. We all start somewhere. In history, if nobody ever dared to make a start we would still be living in caves.
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#552890 - 09/04/19 02:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Belladonna]
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Lucm Offline
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I thought people would have grown tired of me by now, but the replies keep coming and their quality never goes down. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Now,
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Hire a good music business lawyer if things get serious.

How do I find a "good" music business lawyer?

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#552905 - 09/04/19 04:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Belladonna Offline
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No sure what kind of music you do or where you're at. If you're in Nashville check with Marc Allen Barnett for a reference for a good lawyer. Every state in the US has a state bar, you can probably Google for a lawyer specializing in music contracts. Possibly ASCAP or BMI members might have references for lawyers in each state.

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#553162 - 09/05/19 06:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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How do you (the generic you, not pointing at anyone) define success? Fame? fortune? job satisfaction? longevity? Answer that question and you'll instantly know when you're successful. However, the answer likely includes more than one word.

Ever see the 1995 movie, +++ Mr. Holland's Opus +++, starring Richard Dryfess? It's about a musician that doesn't realize how successful he has been until his success is thrown back into his face. He never enjoyed his success because he was living it but his lifestyle was not his definition of success.

There still are multiple ways to have a career in music but while some traditional doors are closing, other doors are opening.

Many famous musicians have performed multiple "jobs" in the entertainment industry. Country singer Roger Miller played bass, sang harmony and was the front man for Ray Price while also writing songs and building his catalog. He became famous as a songwriter, singer, had a variety and sitcom television shows and wrote a Broadway play. Billy Ray Cyrus sings, writes songs, had multiple television series and is best known as the father of Miley Cyrus. Mark Knophler writes songs, plays guitar, sings, was the front man for a famous rock band, scores movies and has composed a symphony but he can't write or read music.
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#553184 - 09/06/19 04:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
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furry Offline
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Loc: Scottish Highlands
Got this from Jack Blanchards' FB page. Sound advice methinks


THE BEST CAREER ADVICE WE EVER GOT... Misty and I had a steady job with our band in a high class Coral Gables supper club, playing light jazz dance music, and occasionally slipping in one of our own songs. We had made a couple of records that got local airplay, but were getting nowhere with amazing velocity... Dick Gillespie was a regular customer we talked with a lot. He was witty, in the Robin Williams style, and owned a local country station. He had won an Emmy for producing the Colgate Comedy Hour on TV. An intelligent guy.

I asked him one night why we weren't getting anywhere.
We were good musicians, I said,
we sang well, looked okay, and made nice records.
Why didn't he see that, and help us?
His answer hurt our feelings and saved our life.

He said, "You have nothing to sell.
Nobody is interested in the things you mentioned.
People won't walk across the street to see a good-looking musician,
but they'll stop for an auto accident."

More importantly, he said,
"Go home and develop an unusual style,
costume yourselves to attract attention,
and change your name if necessary.
Try singing different ways until the style is pronounced.
Style is more important than good singing.
Good singers back up artists with style.
Change your attitude.
Go for stage presence.
Be whoever you want to be, but be unique."

Then he added,
"You can't do this here in the town where they know you.
They won't accept it.
Go to a new place and walk in the door in your new way,
no matter how self-conscious you feel,
and they will think you were born that way."

Misty changed her name from Mary Blanchard,
we dressed pretty wild,
worked up a lot of new material and attitude,
went to Key West and tried it out.
We thought we'd be laughed at,
but they not only accepted us,
they packed the place to see and hear us.
We had a recording contract within two weeks,
and a Pick in Billboard within a couple of months.

We found out that the roles we were playing
were more real than playing dinner music in suit and gown.
Now we can't think of ourselves the old way.
We've been who we are now over half our lives.
It's us.

Dick Gillespie gave us the best advice we ever got,
so we pass it on to other striving artists.
It works.

Jack Blanchard
_________________________
Graham............

Whenever I have a problem, I just sing, Then I realize my voice is worse than my problem.

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#553187 - 09/06/19 05:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
How do you (the generic you, not pointing at anyone) define success? Fame? fortune? job satisfaction? longevity? Answer that question and you'll instantly know when you're successful. However, the answer likely includes more than one word.<...snip...>


I've made a career out of doing what I would do for free. Instead of saying "I HAVE to go to work today", I say "I GET to to to work today."

I get up in the morning, go to sleep at night, and in between do what I want to do.

I'm successful.

I don't live a life of luxury by any stretch of the imagination. Our modest house in a great neighborhood is paid off. I buy Dodge/Ford/Chevy price cars and run them until they are no longer dependable. I don't have jewelry, wide screen TV, a guitar collection, run the air conditioner (for both thrift and ecological concerns), or buy unnecessary items.

Leilani and I both value experience over possessions and we've been to 49 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), more than half the Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Australia, Russia, Japan and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). (Nicaragua, Japan and Russia were very short visits.) Vienna and Germany are next on the list.

I almost made "the big time" once, and to tell the truth, I don't know if I would have been happier if we made it. There is no way to know. Some of the bands we opened for said it was more fun before they got famous, others seem to really enjoy the demands and rewards of making it. There is no sense thinking about it now.

Everybody defines success differently and as you go through life, most people redefine success as their experiences of living change.

I get up in the morning, go to sleep at night, and in between do what I want to do.

How do you define success?

Insights and incites by Notes
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#553261 - 09/06/19 01:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Notes Norton]
Registered: 04/11/08
Posts: 256
Loc: San Diego County
Frank Alves Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/11/08
Posts: 256
Loc: San Diego County
To tag on to what Notes said here's a recent quote from Taj Mahal.

"...I do what I do because I want to. Nobody can pay me to play music. They can pay me to put up with all of what I have to do in order to get to play music. But I play music for free."

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#553402 - 09/07/19 06:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
ignore this, I hit enter too soon wink


Edited by Notes Norton (09/07/19 06:48 AM)
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#553403 - 09/07/19 06:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I tell people, "We don't charge you to play music, We charge you to schlep the gear."

We bring a lot of gear to the gig, 12 space rack full of PA and synth modules, two 15" speaker cabs, two guitars (one for me, one for Leilani), one Thunder Tactile MIDI Controller, three computers (only need two but one is on stand-by just in case), two wind synthesizers (one is a spare), one saxophone, one flute, one percussion controller, plus microphones, cables, and stands.

We get to the gig an hour and a half before the guests arrive, it takes us an hour to setup, but we leave that extra half hour to troubleshoot a cable that may have reached its "use by" date. It takes about 45 minutes to tear down.

Now I could leave some gear home, but they are all fun to play. Sometimes I wish I would have brought the bass or keyboard or some real drums, and that's when I tell myself,"Just stop!"

Most of our gigs are 3 hours of playing, and we rarely take a break. This is what we live for, this is what we schlep the gear for, this is what pays the mortgage, this is the most fun we can have with our clothes on, why take a break?

Our current longest weekly gig starts our 12th year next month. We have places we have played a few times per year for over 25 years now.

Our song list has changed through those years as the audience has changed. It's important to pay attention to what they want.

I like learning new songs so that's OK with me.

I definitely put more than 40 hours a week in to the career, but it's my time, nobody is telling me what to do, I do it because it needs to be done and I like it.

I would have made more money if I stayed in electronics and became a career wage slave to some impersonal corporation. But instead, I'm free. I'm my own boss, I live by my good decisions, hopefully learn from my bad ones, and although I'm at retirement age, I have no plans to do so. I'm having too much fun. If Willie Nelson and Tony Bennett can still gig, so can I, and as long as I can push air through the sax or pluck the guitar and someone wants to hire me, I'll still gig. A musician is what I am, not what I do.

It's not a very financially rewarding career, but it is an extremely rewarding career in other ways.

I think it's more difficult to have a career in music, but as any self-employed business person, you have to find a niche to fill where there is some demand, and fill that niche better than your competitors. It may not be live gigging, some do it on-line, some write songs for others, and so on.

Assess the demand, find your niche, and fill it.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
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#555555 - 09/19/19 03:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 759
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 759
Loc: Central Ohio
The commercial music field was and is a microcosm of our system and way of life, in general. Disruptive technology, so called, has parallel effects in various areas are the inevitable result of our connectivity, in so many ways. The full impact of the reorganization is unfolding. The currency of the music business was tapes and CDs, tickets, advertising on radio and TV -- what have I missed? The numbers show big drops in CD revenue and media advertising, not counting Google.
The oil for the wheels was power, individual and company. It might be said the same formulas apply through out. The kinds of excellence required for radio hits, heck, the business in general, is expensive.
The new technology is driving home a point that we have become conditioned to accept a certain brand of servitude. Breaking those chains is not everyone's cup of tea. There is a certain discomfort in it.


Edited by edshaw (09/19/19 03:22 PM)
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#555696 - 09/20/19 02:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 372
Loc: Jonesboro Arkansas
Brian Hughes Offline
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Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 372
Loc: Jonesboro Arkansas
“If You can play Your stuff in a pub, then You´re a good band.”

― Paul McCartney
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#555858 - 09/21/19 01:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7614
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7614
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
It's finally paying off for my sister, who is a studio singer. She's in her 40's, has done studio singing work in the Indianapolis area for the past 20 years doing mostly sight reading of soprano parts for a company that publishes choral music for colleges and universities - for their demo recordings.

She has made o.k. money doing that, but without a safety net. No benefits, insurance, etc.

She attended some seminar of a person that is connected in with the Nashville studio scene, and lately she has been getting calls to sight read at parts some of the bigger studios in Nashville. For these sessions, she gets paid really well. Well enough that it's worth her driving from Indianapolis to Nashville for the day - she will record a full day.

Her first gig was for a big videogame score for Electronic Arts - Hans Zimmer is the composer, and the gig was at Sony studios in Nashville. Here's a youtube where you can hear Heather singing on Hans Zimmer's site. http://www.hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=news_3&id_news=1095
The game is pretty violent depiction of WWI battles, so there's that to look out for if you click the link.

Recently she was called to do vocals for a new Andrew Peterson Christmas album that's releasing in October. Andrew does a big show at the Ryman for a couple of dates every December. The recording she did last week is for the album supporting this show and tour. https://www.bandsintown.com/e/101308193

But would she say it was a career? I don't know. She's the most professional musician I know very well. I know several others that are supporting musicians for big shots on tour - for example, I know the lead guitarists for Raelynn and Big Kenny (of Big & Rich), and I know Tyler Ward (from CO, but blew up huge in Germany - signed to Sony over there). I don't know what those guys make, but I know what my sister makes and without the benefits, it's hard to say it's a career when it's taken her 20 years to end up with these connections and opportunities.

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#556451 - 09/25/19 03:49 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4821
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
No benefits (insurance, retirement, sick leave, etc.) is a way of life for most of us in the music business. As we are our own employers we have to handle those ourselves.

But we are not wage slaves for some giant, impersonal corporation either.

Like a craftsman/craftswoman (electrician, plumber, etc.), store owner, doctor, or any other self-employed business person, we have the adventure and satisfaction of doing it our own way and not taking orders by some middle management person who doesn't know our job.

We live by our good decisions, learn from our bad ones (hopefully), and enjoy our jobs and our lives.

I've been a pro musician/vocalist for most of my adult life, and I'd do it again.

I tried two 'day jobs' while testing what it was to lead a normal life. Neither lasted very long and I played music on the weekends during those jobs. I found normal to be over-rated.

If I were to do it again, I'd be a musician again, but if I knew what I know now, I wouldn't have taken the day jobs because I know they aren't right for me.

Although I never made "The Big Time" (I got close once), I have no regrets. I'm living a happy life, loving what I am doing, and have no plans to retire because I really enjoy it.

In other words, I followed my bliss. I'm getting paid for doing what I would do for free.

Being self-employed isn't for everyone. Having a career in music is not for everyone. But for some of us it makes for a very happy life. Even if we don't get rich.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
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#557587 - 10/03/19 07:56 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 470
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 470
Loc: Miami, Florida
I only hit the big time once and got the big pay check.

I was playing in a one door in and one door out juke joint in South Central LA.

It was a song I wrote. When I finished a girl came up to me and said " you only white on the outside" She came to me and gave me a two dollar food stamp.

This brings a tear to my eye every time I remember it.

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#557844 - 10/05/19 05:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5188
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5188
Loc: South Carolina
<<Is there still a career in music? >>


This just came up in a post on my FB page from a group I subscribe to. For information only. I'm only posting the text and not the business ID.

"If anyone is looking for a Technical Director position an ******* church in B****, NC is looking for one. They are a church of around 1,200.
Salary: 45,000-55,000 Annually Benefits: Medical, Dental, Vision with premiums covered by the church Moving expenses included."

This job involves running the sound and video of the church. In other words, mixing the console


This is a real job posting, available today and sounds like it could be a 'music career' move to me. Others thoughts?
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#557846 - 10/05/19 05:59 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12517
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12517
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
<<Is there still a career in music? >>
....................
Salary: 45,000-55,000 Annually Benefits: Medical, Dental, Vision with premiums covered by the church Moving expenses included."

This job involves running the sound and video of the church. In other words, mixing the console

.................


45-55K? My brother did this for his church for free!
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#557848 - 10/05/19 06:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3431
Loc: WV, USA
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3431
Loc: WV, USA
Wow!

When I was a church member the ONLY one who got paid for anything was the preacher.
_________________________
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................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#557944 - 10/05/19 08:19 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7614
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7614
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
The tech director of a church that has 1200 attendance, does way more than just run sound. These days it involves a pile of skill and knowledge, social and managerial skills, etc. etc. etc.

If you haven't been to a church of that size in the past 10 years, just make a visit to a service.

It's a big difference compared to even 20 years ago.

Knowledge of MIDI, DMX, USB, various networked digital audio and video protocols for distributed audio and video and In Ear Monitoring systems, wireless audio protocols, recording technology, scheduling volunteer software, and so on and on, are necessary to technically run church services in churches that size. Troubleshooting all of the above also part of those positions.

In a side job, I do A/V training for churches that are 1/4 to 1/2 that size meeting in temporary locations. I get $500/weekend for doing that training, and I don't have to know all of the stuff I listed above.

Discussions as to whether this is necessary should go into a different thread or just not happen.

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#557945 - 10/05/19 09:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there still a career in music? [Re: Lucm]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7112
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7112
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
You guys who think this is surprising need to watch some YT vids of live church music. They're full blown concerts with all that entails. 1,200 seats is basically the main room at a big casino. This is pro level stuff.

Bob
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Fixed: Most menu items are blank if booting Band-in-a-Box in a non-English operating system.
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