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It's hard to read exactly what a poster means when he posts a question like this. To me he means making it to a higher level than simply playing local gigs or being a music teacher which can both be described as having a career in music.

Some years ago I decided to check out some big websites that allowed people to create their own music promotion websites, host their songs and stuff like that. I wound up spending a whole Saturday doing that. Frankly it was simply amazing how good the production quality, songwriting quality and the performance quality was. I must have listened to a hundred songs in all genres and most were excellent.

A lot of them were produced by university music students using the schools full blown, fully professional recording studio. I had not even thought of that angle before this. Here we are on this forum talking about home studios, spending maybe a thousand dollars more or less on this stuff while there are literally thousands of music schools and universities all over the world with their own recording studios not with merely a few computers and software like we would have, oh no, they have hundreds of thousands of dollars of state of the art recording equipment including a TV studio with HD camera's and all that kind of thing.

At that time a few years ago I read it's something like 100,000 music and production school graduates with 4 year degrees come out looking for work every year. Just around me in the SoCal area there is the UCLA School of Music, the Grove School, USC, UC San Diego, UC Santa Barbara, Pepperdine, Loyola, more than I can think of right now and probably 100 community colleges and every one of them have music school and music production departments all with access to pro level recording studios. And this is just in one area of the world. Multiply that by New York, Chicago, Toronto, Mexico City, all the other big cities, then start to go world wide. All the European schools, all the Asian schools and it's just an enormous amount of people. EVERY YEAR. And every one of these graduates has the same goal, to "make it" in the music biz.

One final point to wrap this up. All these schools don't simply accept anybody. No, you have to audition for them. You have to show you already have some pretty awesome performance skills, songwriting skills, sight reading skills, vocal skills. IOW, you're damn good already to even get in much less actually graduate. Here's one vid I just found talking about the audition process at Berkleee in Boston. Songwriting comes up on this forum all the time. Here she mentions how the songwriting department at Berklee has been expanding by a lot. Here's the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGoKbQIxfew

This girl is more of a songwriter/singer, here's a guy doing his guitar audition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPlKvqdYkY

Watch the whole thing, the kids pretty good.

Multiply that by all the worldwide schools and then apply that to where you're at now and be honest with yourself.

The sheer numbers, talent level and ability of these grads are so heavily against you it's beyond ridiculous.

Bob



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Wish me luck. First gig of the Rio Grande Valley season. RealBand is dying to rock. I've been on vacation for 2 months.
BTW going to be 102 today in Texas. Load is should be a ball. Lol


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Good luck!!!

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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
Depends on what you mean.
Having a career and making it famous are two different things.


Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
It's hard to read exactly what a poster means when he posts a question like this.


Hi. Original poster here.

My ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet.

I know, I know, it's old fashioned, nobody buys CDs anymore etc. But I am not entirely convinced. I for one buy CDs. Rarely, but that's because I rarely like anything anymore. I don't like the music that tops the charts nowadays.

And I have seen two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.

I know a lot of people think I am aiming at something impossible, but... what if (bear with me, WHAT IF) my music is actually good? What happens then? Is there still any possibility that I might catch someone's attention who might want to sign me up? Is being signed up still good? Is it better than being independent?

You see, I am not really much of a performer. I am a songwriter who wants to produce and record my own music. Playing generic gigs such as weddings or ballrooms is not in my plans. I want to write, record and release music first. Touring is not even in the building, much less on the table.

I don't think I am ever going to be big. My style is not very mainstream, it's more alternative. But I certainly hope to have a small but faithful following. Think about, for example, Dead Can Dance (before Gladiator for better perspective). They are not very famous. I only have one friend who even knows who they are. But they are successful. They're just... erm, "alternative." That's my goal, some modest success in the alternative arena.

(If you think that Dead Can Dance is not a good example, maybe it isn't. I spent more time trying to think up the name of some act that is not exactly famous but gets by and is well known enough to get my point across than I spent writing this whole post. How about the Tom Tom Club, is that better? Young Gods? Kristin Hersh? You get the picture.)

Anyway, that's what I want to do and I will probably do it, but I do wonder if it's really worth the effort because I might be just wasting my time etc. The dream is SO BIG even when I try to think small.

I am very grateful for all the replies. People in this forum are very, very nice. Thank you very very much.

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Originally Posted By: Lucm
[quote=Notes Norton]vMy ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet. Dead Can Dance is not a good example, maybe it isn't. I am very grateful for all the replies. People in this forum are very, very nice. Thank you very very much.


I just listened to some of the Dead Can Dance - Anastasis tracks.
I would certainly call it 'alternative', niche soundtrack type of genre.
They (that genre) have no musical appeal to me but that doesn't mean anything.
They do their thing and market themselves apparently with some success.

Maybe it's all about tenacious marketing of oneself utilizing the internet to hopefully find an actual demographic that will actually pay money so one can 'make a living' at it.
Being 72, I tend I see that path as futile. smile
If one's writing is 'not mainstream' that will be a rough road to hoe and one best gird thy loins for the long haul.

I certainly don't have a fan base for my song writing efforts and I don't market myself at all.
Guess my ego just isn't there to think I would have any mass appeal.

Technology and the internet has provided anyone and everyone the ability to do their thing and put it out there.
To you and all others that think they have what it takes to actually support oneself with their song writing efforts I'll wish you all the best of luck/success.

Carry on....

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Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
I just listened to some of the Dead Can Dance - Anastasis tracks.
I would certainly call it 'alternative', niche soundtrack type of genre.

Thank you for your comment, but there was no need to listen to it. My point was just that they are not exactly famous. They caught some attention when they were involved in the Gladiator soundtrack, but I suppose they were forgotten soon after that. But they certainly have their following.

Everybody got so silent suddenly, which doesn't strike me as a good omen...

Last edited by Lucm; 08/30/19 12:28 PM.
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Ok, my opinion on this.

I think if you have expectations that you will sell a lot of CD's on your website, or that someone will hear your music and sign you to a deal, you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but do it for the right reasons. Do it because you love writing songs and making music, not because you think you might make a ton of money or get a deal.

As far as selling CD's go not many people buy CD's these days, they are pretty much obsolete. I have a good friend that plays in a band in the UK, top notch band, very good original songs. They have a couple of CD's but he tells me that his only sales are at the gigs they play, sort of a novelty item almost.

Even MP3 downloads are pretty much obsolete. These days it's all about streams. So you could maybe do a short run of physical CD's but concentrate on getting your music on the streaming platforms such as Spotify and iTunes. There are a few places that you can use to do that, I use CDBaby but they are no longer the only game in town.

But to start, why not unload some of your music to soundcloud and post them on the user showcase forum here? There is lots of good music there, some very good songwriters and people that know how to produce music, I'm sure you will get some good feedback.

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Finally someone mentions streaming. What took it so long? :-)

Streaming is the same as nothing. Even big celebrities can't make any money with streaming. I don't intend to get rich, just make enough to live, and streaming won't cut it.

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Thanks Bob. I think you and I are on the same page. We make more money playing all the local venues while others wait to get famous.I think all this I want and should be famous cause I ve got all the gear to make a cd or whatever is crazy. There is a lot of bad stuff out there.

Last edited by silvertones; 08/31/19 03:53 AM.

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I mean this very kindly and respectfully, but your plan is completely unrealistic and it's very unlikely to work. If you'll indulge me, I'm going to dissect your post and address some things item by item.

Quote:

My ambition right now is to release something independently, ideally an album or at least a couple of singles. I intend to sell CDs over the Internet.
I know, I know, it's old fashioned, nobody buys CDs anymore etc. But I am not entirely convinced. I for one buy CDs. Rarely, but that's because I rarely like anything anymore. I don't like the music that tops the charts nowadays.


There's no statistical data that supports your theory. In fact, vinyl sales are poised to exceed CD sales in the near future.

Quote:
And I have seen two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.


Most independent artists still sell CDs at shows....it has become a novelty/merch item, not much different than t-shirts or baseball caps.

Quote:
I know a lot of people think I am aiming at something impossible, but... what if (bear with me, WHAT IF) my music is actually good? What happens then? Is there still any possibility that I might catch someone's attention who might want to sign me up? Is being signed up still good? Is it better than being independent?


Here's where your plan completely disintegrates. You asked about being signed....zero chance of that happening, because of what you said here:
Quote:
You see, I am not really much of a performer. I am a songwriter who wants to produce and record my own music. Playing generic gigs such as weddings or ballrooms is not in my plans. I want to write, record and release music first. Touring is not even in the building, much less on the table.

No record label in existence will sign an act who doesn't want to tour. Period. That's where the money is, and labels get a percentage of touring in the current business model (they're called "360 deals", because the label gets a percentage of every bit of the artists' income, including touring, publishing, writer royalties, merchandise, etc.). Record labels are in the business of making money - they don't care if your music is good or not. If they thought they could make money off of someone dressing up like a chicken and making flatulent sounds, they'd do it. That's just the reality of the music business.

You mentioned the two people in heavy metal bands who make a living selling CDs. You didn't elaborate, but I suspect they are in bands who play gigs/tour. That's how artists find an audience - it's by getting in front of people and performing.

The amount of music available now is astronomically high. Trying to find new music used to be looking for a needle in a haystack....now you're looking for the same needle in hundreds of thousands of haystacks. It's hard enough to accomplish when you are a performer. The chances that it could happen without that aspect of it are critically slim.

Could it happen? I suppose so. But you're more likely to buy a winning lottery ticket.

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I think Roger summed it up very well.

I might be wrong or overlooking some aspects here but in reference to my previous post....

Before the internet existed and the development of new technologies (in this context) that allows any of us to record our own efforts at home with lofty goals of success only those that had time proven, well respected musicianship/song writing skills and were willing to tour were the ones we heard on radio and were producing albums for purchase.

Now....everyone that loves the process of song writing/recording has a medium for exposure....the internet.
Any previously necessary perceived skill level is no longer that relevant nor a determining criteria for promoting oneself or getting picked up/promoted by any label.
Hence....a saturated market where everyone somehow must set themselves apart from all others out there with any number of skill sets.
How does one accomplish that?....being connected over a period of time, having stellar musicianship skills, writing good mainstream songs and lots of luck.
Or, maybe I'm wrong on those points. smile

I have no illusions about my place in the music world.
I'm just a bottom feeder that has been playing/song writing for a long time and it's only creative therapy for this old bird.

Hope I made some sense....a good day to all.






Last edited by chulaivet1966; 08/31/19 06:56 AM.
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Originally Posted By: silvertones
...others wait to get famous. I think all this I want and should be famous cause I ve got all the gear to make a cd or whatever is crazy.

I never said that. Please don't distort my words. I find it rude.

Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
No record label in existence will sign an act who doesn't want to tour.

Now you, I don't think you are distorting my words, looks more like you misunderstand me. I never said I don't WANT to tour. I just think it's too early to think about that. Problem number 1: I am alone. I don't have any kind of band or support at all and I know I can't count on any for the time being.

Let me try just one more approach: how did the Gangnam Style guy ever monetize his instant success?

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Originally Posted By: Lucm
two band members (different, unrelated bands) in the heavy metal genre say that they sell enough CDs to make a living, in a very independent fashion.

A lot of people say they are successful! I mean, the chances of you buying something from them goes from almost zero to zero instantly if they admit they are not successful! It is kinda like the sales guy at conference who is all hyped up and telling everyone who will listen how great he is doing and then you have a drink at the bar that evening with him and he is crying in his beer about how he is gonna need to get a real job if things don't improve next month.

Someone told you this is like buying a lottery ticket and that pretty much sums it up. You "might" get lucky and make some money but you also "might" win Lotto! (Spoiler alert: you won't!)

And that Gangnam Style guy? Simple. He won the lottery. Right time. Right place. Right dumb song. Millions have tried to do what he did and failed. And it is a thousand times harder to do what he did in today's clogged up media markets.

BUT, with that all said...Don't Give Up on your dream if you wanna pursue it! Be sure you are enjoying it and don't quit your day job but follow that dream if it makes you happy!

Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 08/31/19 11:18 AM.
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Quote:
Now you, I don't think you are distorting my words, looks more like you misunderstand me. I never said I don't WANT to tour. I just think it's too early to think about that. Problem number 1: I am alone. I don't have any kind of band or support at all and I know I can't count on any for the time being.

Let me try just one more approach: how did the Gangnam Style guy ever monetize his instant success?


I didn't misunderstand you...my point remains the same.

If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal. You're trying to put the cart before the horse. It doesn't work like that, not anymore.

Let me give you a real world example. I have two peers, also professional songwriters. Very successful, great resumes'. They started working with a female singer, extremely talented...beautiful, great singer, etc. We have a friend who is a producer and runs a record label, so they approached him about getting her a deal. Keep in mind, these are all friends we're talking about, not total strangers.

The producer/label exec told them that before HE EVEN LISTENED TO HER MUSIC, he would need to see all of her social media data (# of twitter/instagram/facebook followers), the number of youtube likes/views she had, the number of streams she had on the Spotify's of the world, and (here's the most relevant part) her touring/performing schedule for the past 12 months. If those numbers were not what he expected them to be, he wasn't interested in listening to her music at all.

Labels don't want to spend money developing artists anymore, they want you to bring them the entire, complete package. They aren't interested in developing acts, they want to sign successful, touring artists/bands that they can jump in and make money off of pretty much from day one.

The Gangnam Style guy (whose name is Psy) was an artist in Korea, and that song was his 18th single. It was a pop culture phenomenon, and is the exception rather than the rule. As JohnJohnJohn alluded to, that guy is one of the lottery winners. I would also ask you what he has done internationally since that one song...answer, nothing.

At the end of the day, you'll have to do it yourself first, and touring/performing is a critical piece in the equation.

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
...If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal.

If I type "famous bands that never toured" into a search engine, it gives me a list. Could these results be incorrect?


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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
...If you don't tour, you're not getting a record deal.

If I type "famous bands that never toured" into a search engine, it gives me a list. Could these results be incorrect?


A lot of bands/artists used to release music on cassettes and 8-track tapes, too.

The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.

Last edited by Roger Brown; 08/31/19 03:47 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Finally someone mentions streaming. What took it so long? :-)

Streaming is the same as nothing. Even big celebrities can't make any money with streaming. I don't intend to get rich, just make enough to live, and streaming won't cut it.


To give it to you bluntly, it's because EVERYBODY knows including you it's a complete waste of time. AND, selling CD's is also a complete waste of time ESPECIALLY since you're saying you're not a performer and not interested in touring. You just cut yourself off at the knees because gigging is about the ONLY way you even have a chance of selling enough CD's to matter.

I don't know of you've read Rogers comments in the copyright and streaming threads. All I can say is he's a total pro, he's been fighting for years to get streaming rates drastically increased. He actually knows and speaks to members of Congress and the Senate. He's at that serious of a level with this stuff and knows what he's talking about.

I'm the last person to tell someone to not follow their dreams because that's exactly what I did for about 15 years but it was all gigging and touring. I managed to make a "living" meaning I paid my rent, car payments and equipment but that's it. Zero benefits, zero savings, no retirement plan and it cost me big time in the long run.

All my musician friends bailed out a good ten years before I did, got college degrees, went into regular professional careers, bought houses and all retired about ten years ago with assets and a good income. Me, I'm the same age as them but I just retired two years ago with some savings, managed to buy a small house in a retirement community 120 miles outside of LA because it's affordable but still, I have a fraction of what they have.

After knocking around different jobs mainly selling cars I finally landed at a CPA firm doing taxes about 25 years ago. When I was a full time player the last thing I would have ever seen myself doing was taxes. How uncool is that? Turns out I liked it, took a lot of serious high level courses in it and made some good money. The thing is from a strictly financial pov, I should have done that 35 years ago, not 25. Those ten years makes a huge difference. Looking back on it would I have bailed out early too? Honestly no, I'm happy with what I did and if you feel the same way then go for it.

Try to do your thing and I seriously mean that. Give it a really good solid try but if you're concerned about your long term financial health then don't let yourself fall too far behind what is needed to have a good life, some good investments and be able to have a comfortable retirement when that time comes.

Bob

Last edited by jazzmammal; 08/31/19 04:24 PM.

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Used to be that you only had to send CD-Baby 5 copies; could be CD-R copies, of your music. I don't know if they still move physical product - I don't think so, but here's their 'get started' page.

https://members.cdbaby.com/sign-up

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.

Not arguing that there may have been change, but exactly when did this happen? What were the catalysts?


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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The results aren't incorrect. But look at the WHEN.

Different world now, different business.

Not arguing that there may have been change, but exactly when did this happen? What were the catalysts?


The catalyst/change happened when people stopped buying music and transitioned to streaming. In the U.S., unlike most countries, record labels do not receive performance royalties from radio play. Their money was always made from product sales. When the marketplace changed, they had to change as well. So they started requiring artists to sign what are called 360 deals - this allows the label to make money from all aspects of an artists' career - whatever sales still exist, concert revenue, merch sales, publishing/songwriting royalties, etc.

Most artists make their primary income from touring. So if you don't tour, you have no value to a record label, because they have no way to make enough money to bother with you.

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We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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