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Wow!!! The cold hard facts can really destroy a young man's dreams. There was a song written one time called "Thank God for Unanswered Prayers" and I have some reflection on that title. Today, the music industry wants you to already have a large following based on your hard earned sweat. They want you to come to them already with a name that they can sell easily. They will take control of your life, require you to do what they want and take a big percentage of your earnings. If you can't or don't follow their dictates there's the next starry eyed performer waiting in the wings to take your place. Some people might remember you were famous once, but there's a new kid on the block now. It's all about the money they don't care about you and you're as only good as your last song. Meanwhile they've handcuffed all your creative works for a long time or forever. Maybe you could have done just as well on your own since you've built your own following, avoided all the stress and drama and the huge profits they took from your sweat and blood.
Doesn't sound like anything I'ld want to be involved in.

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Originally Posted By: Belladonna
.............. Today, the music industry wants you to already have a large following based on your hard earned sweat. They want you to come to them already with a name that they can sell easily. They will take control of your life, require you to do what they want and take a big percentage of your earnings. .............


This is not new as that was the same situation that I was faced with in the late 60's early 70's. I'm so glad that we had a lawyer that explained this to us. I am glad that music became my avocation and not my vocation.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I would point out that it is the music "business", not music "benevolence", "beneficence", or "philanthropy".

Record labels exist to make money, no different than any other company or corporation. It's absolutely not the path for everyone, and believe me when I tell you there's a lot about it that I loathe. However, it also puts food on my table and a roof over my head, so I take the bad with the good.

My comments, btw, are not intended to be discouraging. As I said somewhere in this thread, there is always a way to monetize music and make some sort of living doing it. I was specifically addressing a theoretical business model that I simply don't believe will work, for the reasons I mentioned. I intended my thoughts to be taken and applied more along the lines of "well, if this plan won't work, I need to find a different plan."

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
My comments, btw, are not intended to be discouraging.

DITTO for my comments! There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

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Looks like God decided to send a sign from up above. That or someone in Sample Swap reads this forum, knows my email address and has a nasty sense of humor.
This is my mailbox today, no kidding:


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I'm glad I chose music as a vocation. I'm having a wonderful life.

I would have made more money if I stayed in electronics, but for the 5 years I spent as a field engineer for a cable TV manufacturer, I hated it.

I wake up in the morning, go to bed at night, and in between do what I want to do. I make a living doing what I would do for free, and I've been lucky enough to make a living at it since 1964. The house is paid off, I've taken vacations in 6 of the 7 continents, and for that I'm successful.

I've been to: 49 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), more than half the Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Australia, Russia, Japan and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). (Nicaragua, Japan and Russia were very short visits.) Austria and Germany are next.

I learn from my mistakes and thrive from my good decisions. I play to appreciative audiences, and love them, and they appreciate me.

I pride experience over possessions, I have enough possessions, but not a surplus of them, but I have extraordinary experiences.

However, the opportunities today are very different than they were in the 1960s. I don't know if it's possible or not to lead a charmed life like I've led so far.

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I would say there is a career as long you can have a wide range of material, and be able to play what your audience asks for. I know lots of musicians in Scotland who make a living out of it. Weddings & dinner dances are a great source of income, and also playing for general dancing is always a good earner. Being able to supply cds is also a great way of topping up your fee. Present yourself well, always start on time and finish later if you're asked. NEVER give up a gig for a better paid one as that's just asking for trouble. Good dress sense always helps. Nothing's worse than seeing a scruffy musician

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Graham gives good advice.

Remember (1) an independent musician or band is a small business, so the product should be what the audience wants and be better than the competition (2) every business is in the customer service business - give them what the want and don't give them any problems. OK sometimes problems happen, if they do, make them glad they had a problem.

The competition is fierce so think about what you can do to be better than your friends and/or competitors. Treat your customers like you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes. It's the only way to do business.

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Guys, there's a substantial difference between playing covers and playing originals. There always has been, and always will be, a pretty good market for performing covers, assuming you follow the very good advice given by Graham and Bob.

Having a career based on original material, which is what the OP was asking about, is a lot tougher nut to crack. As saturated as the market is with cover bands/musicians, it is exponentially worse with bands/artists trying to break through with original material. Part of the problem with trying to monetize that is that you have to compete & deal with the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers who gleefully play for free, being conned into believing it's "good exposure."

Well, people die from exposure. And while you're up there trying to grab an indifferent audience's attention with your music, the club owners are selling drinks and raking in the money. This type of garbage is rampant in the area where I live - it pays off for literally no one, and yet the young & naive flock to these exploitative venues, willing to give away their talent for nothing more than empty promises and false hope that they might be "discovered".

I always ask aspiring musicians/songwriters this rhetorical question - if something can be had for free, what value does it have? The answer is nothing. Free has no value. I would encourage everyone to never allow yourself to be used & taken advantage of by greedy, selfish people.

I'll bet a lot of us on here have played weddings at some point....I've sure played my fair share of them. How many times have you seen a family spend literally thousands of $$, sometimes $10-15k or more, on a wedding - flowers, venue, catering, etc. - and yet when the band wants $500 for playing 5 hours, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth as though somehow you're gouging them. Happens all the time - because far too many musicians/bands are willing to compromise on the value of their talent.

Don't. What you do has value. Demand fair compensation for your work and talent, and don't compromise.

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There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I would point out that it is the music "business", not music "benevolence", "beneficence", or "philanthropy". (Roger Brown)

I've been in business 40 some years and as a CPA worked with lots of businesses and companies. I'm not talking about philanthropy or non-profits here. A famous quote from Ben Franklin "You can do well, while doing good". Sorry to say the big commercial music business doesn't do so much good. They are cut throat, they take the creativity of young people and drain them all the while living like kings themselves. I met a music agent (an he was just the agent) who'ld represented some large and famous acts, whom I might say moved on from him, but he was very very rich and had homes in several states.

In my opinion they profit really large off the sweat equity of young, creative people seeking to be famous. I've heard people say well they still earned more than they would have on their own. Maybe that's true, however I'm sure they keep the lions share. All the while controlling your life to make the most money they can while you're still the hottest thing. No wonder so many musicians turn to drugs to deal with the stress.

Most musicians here are talking about doing their own thing, which I admire more and doing it their way on their own time and controlling their artistic works.

Being self-employed most of my life and earning my way, I am a champion of that. If you want to do the music business, do it your way. Also you have to be around and stay with it when everyone else is dropping out and at some point the longevity counts also.

Last edited by Belladonna; 09/02/19 06:14 AM.
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Sorry to say the big commercial music business doesn't do so much good. They are cut throat, they take the creativity of young people and drain them all the while living like kings themselves. I met a music agent (an he was just the agent) who'ld represented some large and famous acts, whom I might say moved on from him, but he was very very rich and had homes in several states.


I've been in the "big commercial music business" since 1985, as a songwriter, artist, producer, A&R rep, publisher, and publicist - for a number of large companies & major labels. There's a lot about it that I can (and do) criticize, but your description of it is a very broad stereotype. Are there crooks in the music business? Sure there are - there are also crooked lawyers, doctors, and accountants in the world. Every profession has its share of bad apples. The music/entertainment industry just has a lot more eyes & ears trained on what they're doing than most professions. Agents (I'm assuming you mean "manager" and not "booking agent") make 15% from the artists they represent, fwiw. Booking agents, usually between 10-15%. That's a pretty minimal amount for the work they do, and it is substantial when it's being done by legitimate, competent professionals.

Quote:
In my opinion they profit really large off the sweat equity of young, creative people seeking to be famous. I've heard people say well they still earned more than they would have on their own. Maybe that's true, however I'm sure they keep the lions share. All the while controlling your life to make the most money they can while you're still the hottest thing.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion. And you are correct in regards to record labels, they do keep the lions share. They also SPEND the lions share to promote the artist. For every artist signed to a record label, only 5-10% ever make the label any money. There are a lot more misses than there are successes.

Quote:
No wonder so many musicians turn to drugs to deal with the stress.


This is the only thing you said that I take vehement exception to, because it is conjecture and not factual, and because I have buried nearly a dozen peers in the business from drug/alcohol related deaths. Not a single one was related to career "stress". If anything, it was because they had addictive tendencies/personalities and gave into the many temptations and bad choices that were laid before them.



I was the first poster to respond on this thread....I said in that post:
Quote:
There's always a potential career for an artist. It takes a lot of talent, hard work, diligence, and healthy dose of luck and timing.
In that context, being an independent, self-contained artist/songwriter/producer/label is a great way to go, and I've encouraged artists to pursue that path more often than not.

The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned. I have to assume that is how he/she assesses having a successful career in music. If that is your dream/desire, then the rules change. If that's your goal, then you have to play by the rules whether you like and agree with them or not.

The exploitation of creators is nothing new....it goes back centuries. Every person has to make their own decision about how much they are willing to compromise to attain whatever success they seek. Personally, I'm very proud of the fact that I've been able to make a good living writing songs without sacrificing my morals, ethics, or integrity. I've met a lot of wonderful, generous, selfless people in the music industry, some of the best I've known from any walk of life. I've met scumbags as well, but not as many as you might think. I truly don't believe it's as bad as you perceive it to be.

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I'm no psychiatrist and I've also seen a lot of deaths from alcohol and substance abuse. I'm sure it's not just as simple as being born with an addictive gene. There are outside factors and influences that make people susceptible and one of those is stress. In addition to an industry where there's always a party to go to and drugs and alcohol are everywhere with people encouraging all that to happen. How many country songs have we heard about heartbreak, loneliness, unhappiness and drugs and drinking (maybe stress related)?

I've heard many psychologists talk about vets with PTSD who became addicts and others who were self-medicating to cope with life and their issues. Many times it becomes their only escape and they become victims. This world is hard and some are not as strong as others, especially young people who's decision making facilities aren't fully developed in the brain until their late twenties.

Also, many American Indians ended up with alcohol problems after the white man arrived that they didn't have before. Many suspect they had the addiction gene, but it wasn't a problem before it was sooo available.

To my point of the relationship of stress, addictions and young famous musicians (not the only cause of course). Here's the post by a young famous musician on Instagram who's having a hard time with his life right now. It's all over the news, so go and read his post for yourself. He's telling it like it is for many young people. I'm just going to post some of the things he said.

It's hard to get out of bed in the morning with the right attitude when you are overwhelmed with your life, your past, job, responsibilities, emotions, family, finances, your relationships. When it feels like there's trouble after trouble. You start seeing the day through the lens of dread and anticipate another bad day. It's a cycle of disappointment. Sometimes it gets to the point when you don't want to live anymore. You can't see that it's ever going to change. I could not change my mindset.

"You see I have a lot of money, clothes, cars, accolaides, achievements, and awards and I am still unfulfilled.

Have u noticed the statistics of child stars and the outcome of their lives? There is an insane pressure and responsibility put on a young person who's brain, emotions, frontal lobes (decision making) aren't developed yet. They have no rationality, defiant, rebellious, things all of us have to go through. But when you add the pressure of stardom it does something to you that is quite unexplainable.

You see I didn't grow up in a stable home, my parents were separated. I had no money and was young and rebellious. My talent progressed and I became ultra successful, it happened within two years. My whole world was flipped on its head. I went from a 13 year old boy from a small town to being praised left and right by the world with millions saying how much they loved me and how great I was. You hear these things at a young age and you start to believe it.

I did't know that humility comes with age. Rationality and good decision making come with age (that's why it's illegal to drink until you're 21). Everyone did everything for me so I didn't learn the fundamentals of responsibility. By this time I was 19 with no skills in the world, with millions of dollars to spend and access to whatever I wanted. By age 20 I had made every bad decision possible and I went from being the most loved to being the most judged, ridiculed and hated person.

Being on stage is the biggest dopamine rush, so these massive ups and downs were hard to manage. You notice a lot of touring bands and people end up having a phase of drug abuse and I believe its due to not being able to manage the stress that comes with it.

I started doing pretty heavy drugs at 19 and abused all my relationships. I became resentful, disrespectful to women and angry. I became distant to everyone who loved me and hid behind the shell of a person I had become. It has taken me years to try to get back from all these bad decisions, fix broken relationships and change habits. Luckily God has blessed me with people who care and love me. I am now navigating the best season of my life, marriage. It's an amazing new responsibility of learning patience, trust, commitment, kindness, humility and all the things it takes to be a good man.

I just want to say when the odds are against you, keep fighting. Jesus loves you. Be kind today, be bold and love people not by your standards but by God's unfailing love.

I thought this was the greatest outpouring of someone who has been there and done it. However, he's lucky for the support he has. What about the many others who aren't that lucky? Does the industry in general care about these young people's lives or are they just a commodity to be used to make themselves rich? I'm sure some of them do as there are good people everywhere, but overall? Hmmmm!

Last edited by Belladonna; 09/03/19 07:48 AM.
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It's an issue we're just going to have to agree to disagree on apparently. Honor & respect your passion for what you believe!

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned.

This is the second time I am misquoted. I never said any of those things.

I might have suggested some idea of fame, but just enough to get by, in the alternative scene. I have no hope of ever being big. If I could say, sell some 25,000 copies every year, I would be good. 25,000 worldwide is not that much. Some very alternative acts sell a million copies worldwide. Now consider that I know I can easily put out two or three albums a year, 25,000 looks even more doable. Still hard, but is it really impossible? Worldwide?

Well, let's see. I still appreciate all the replies. All of them.

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

Not only do I agree with this, it's exactly what I thought when I decided to come here and ask for advice. I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.

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Originally Posted By: Lucm
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
The original poster, however, framed his question in regards to becoming famous. In one instance "attention, fame, fortune, and glory" was mentioned.

This is the second time I am misquoted. I never said any of those things.

I might have suggested some idea of fame, but just enough to get by, in the alternative scene. I have no hope of ever being big. If I could say, sell some 25,000 copies every year, I would be good. 25,000 worldwide is not that much. Some very alternative acts sell a million copies worldwide. Now consider that I know I can easily put out two or three albums a year, 25,000 looks even more doable. Still hard, but is it really impossible? Worldwide?

Well, let's see. I still appreciate all the replies. All of them.

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
There is this (misguided) idea that telling someone what their odds of success are is being negative or discouraging. Actually it is just the opposite! To have any chance at all of success, you'd better know what you are up against going in!

Not only do I agree with this, it's exactly what I thought when I decided to come here and ask for advice. I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.



I'm sorry, but you absolutely referenced those things.

Here is your exact quote, from your post on page 1 of this thread....

Quote:
I was shocked at the quality of many songs and now I wonder why those people aren't famous or what they are ever doing with their music. Is there any career still left in music nowadays?


GuitarHacker replied with this:

Quote:
talent has nothing to do with being successful in todays music business. Not really. Good writers and singers are a dime a dozen. Just go to Nashville and go in the bars and listen to the performers.


and you replied with this:

Quote:
Why aren't they famous? Why does bad other music get so much attention, fame, fortune and glory?


Regardless of whether you intended it to sound like being famous was a part of your question, that's how it was presented and how I interpreted it.

You may not have intended it that way....but you absolutely said it. Those are your words, quoted from page 1.

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Originally Posted By: Lucm
[quote=Roger Brown]I appreciate all the points of view, even the harsh ones.


I've read all responses here and I don't find one of them to be remotely 'harsh' at all.
I find all responses benign and merely being candid with respect to the title of your forum topic.
I tend to think if one actually solicits opinions of their their material on dedicated 'music critique' forums one's perceived definition of 'harsh' will certainly change. smile
Having a thick skin is something we all need to maintain in this context.

We're all adults here....all contributors have expressed their views based on their experiences and perceptions.
Even one who's been on the inside of the current industry and is familiar with the changes in the industry over the decades and protocols necessary that one must understand when pursuing a musical path to actually succeed and make money at any level.

As stated in my previous post....I wish you and all others the best of luck/success in their song writing endeavors.
Even myself smile which isn't likely to happen if I had two lifetimes because I don't write for mainstream appeal.
I write from the gut, try to tell a story with some lyrical continuity and convincing imagery....that's it.
Whether I succeed is up to the listeners....not me.

Just a thought....
Do you have a website with your original material that we may listen to?

Carry on....


Last edited by chulaivet1966; 09/03/19 01:57 PM.
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Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
Do you have a website with your original material that we may listen to?

No, not yet.

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Lucm:
As a music business outsider and one whose professional days are behind me, I can't offer tested answers to your question; but common sense business principles don't change much. What's changing in the music business seems to be, well, just about everything.
These are the best of times, and the worst of times. The old ways of doing business are fading, giving way to new platforms, platforms which might turn out to be as treacherous as the former. I hope not. I'm talking about the new digital distribution formats and the internet, of course.
From the comments, we see a variety of life experiences in the traditional ways, (work the market, hope for a record deal, go on tour, live the life,) owned by
members of this forum. Not surprising, really, when you consider the amazing quality that gets posted. What's missing is nostalgia.
If we look at this new production and distribution model from a positive point of view, these are the best of times -- exciting, hazardous, unchartered. Just look at what some of the talking head news and current events commentators are doing with video! Some of them are now at the point they draw more views than some commercial television. I won't name names, but with censorship, these commentators are developing alternatives to YouTube.
Meanwhile, the music is re-runs of Hee-Haw and 150 ways to learn the pentatonic scales. What's wrong with this picture? On the bright side, it is no big deal any more to put your band on You Tube.
I'm suggesting musicians 1) get as good as you can get, 2) do as much media work as you can, with an eye toward mastery, 3) be patient and keep your ears and eyes open. Often, the best opportunities are already right in front of you.

Last edited by edshaw; 09/03/19 03:23 PM.

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Regardless of who said what, everyone is giving their advice and opinions based on their experience and it's all with good intentions. Oh! if anyone is interested the famous musician I was referring in my prior post to Roger was Justin Bieber, take a look at his post on Instagram to get the view from a young performer about being famous in the music business.

Here are some reminders I live by.

1. Be ready for the next change. Nothing remains the same, Bud was talking about the 60s and some of us were talking about the business today. It will all change again, so the thing is to be ready for opportunities that arrive. Tastes change as we see with The Big Band Era, then the Doo Waps, then Elvis, the Beatles, the 60s, etc.

2. Hire a good music business lawyer if things get serious.

3. Keep at it and be there when everyone else has given up and left. Woody Allen said 90% of success was just showing up. Be the one who's always there. There's a lot to be said about longevity.

4. Redefine what success means to you in the meantime. I consider myself successful in my efforts as I've been involved in writing a couple albums in about eight years and I have written over 350 songs to date. I feel a sense of satisfaction of what I have done. In my younger years I could have never envisioned that I would have done anything like this.

5. Figure out what kind of a career you can have on your own, even with a day job.

6. Hitch your wagon to a star. Remember there were a lot of songs that became successful that were turned down by some big names in the industry. It took the right person to perform it. Hendrix made Bob Dylan's song "All Along the Watchtower" famous. Carlos Santana made Fleetwood Mac's "Black Magic Woman" famous. Julia Gold's song "From a Distance" was turned down many times. Also, remember Mel Gibson's Christian films that he was told wouldn't be a hit, so he did it himself and made tons of money. Hollywood was jealous. Against all odds anything can happen. Good luck.

Last edited by Belladonna; 09/03/19 03:14 PM.
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Hi, I haven’t watched this all the way through but I found it interesting in the context of this subject.

https://youtu.be/r0aeGQZhbn0

Rick Beato on How to make money out of music. Worth a look IMHO

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Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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