For Pro Sound should I step up from Realdrums? And if so is ADDITIVE DRUMS a good place to start? If not what do people recommend?
I currently use REALDRUMS and TRACKS and then load them into Sonar and have been happy with the results but I often hear from pros that the drums could be better.
I'm not going to record actual drums of course but I want to get better tracks. I understand that MID gives you ability to edit drum as a seperate track but does the
Been so spoiled by band in a box for 20 years that I haven't really done any drum programming or MIDI, I'm a singer/songwriter (American, Funny songs) and I want to step things up.
Thanks for any thoughts, I need to check out this forum more often.
Additive Drums 2 is an excellent drum program. You can set it up for GM drums so a BiaB MIDI drum track will work with it with no problems. In Sonar I would separate BiaB's drum track by note; I solo each separated track so I can name them, i.e. high tom. snare, etc. This way you can put effects on each individual track. For instance reverb and delay on the snare but only compression on the kick.
Have fun and I hope this helps.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Using Addictive Drums in a DAW the Addictive Drums will split the drums for you. One track in to many out. It is also possible to set your kit up with effects already on them also set volumes and panning for each drum (or mic). Better yet in a DAW one can render the drums into separate audio tracks to allow processing as you would a recorded set.
Once a kit is set up it is possible to save it. Also in the DAW save the track setup for the one in to multi out as a track template. Very simple in Cakewalk or Reaper I assume also other DAWs.
Addictive Drums is very powerful as are a number of other drum samplers. Take time to learn the features. Groove3 have excellent tutorials on using Addictive Drums.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
I don’t know if EZ Drummer works well with BIAB, but I love the results I get with it. Drums are pretty much all that I can’t play with usable outcomes so in a sense it is my DIAB, Drummer in a box. I don’t mean that I can play brass or woodwinds because I can’t. As it is I just don’t even think to use those types of sounds in my writing. Drums were my weakness but EZ Drummer really has flipped that around for me.
A few things to consider before you start buying (and trying to learn) new Drums software...
When you say "I often hear from pros that the drums could be better...."
What define these folks as "pros"? What do they (or you) mean by "could be better..."?
Does that mean the playing???? .... because the guys playing the BIAB drums are the best there are... they know what they are doing...
Does that mean - your drums aren't loud enough?? Drummers (your pros?) like the hear drums above most everything else. I listened to several of your videos (I enjoyed them, btw). I thought, for the most part, your drum choices were good, but they are a bit "buried in the mix". (Also, you don't get carried away with part markers - and therefore drum fills - they way some folks tend to...a good thing).
Does they mean the overall SOUND of the drums? The drums in you video could use some processing to "make them pop". Some high end EQ, some compression (and a bit more volume).
With just a little effort (processing), the BIAB drums can be some of the best there are.
Are you using a current version of BIAB (and at least the UltraPak)? There have been some great new choices in the last couple of years. There are SO many choices of style - and choosing the RIGHT one can make all the difference
Learning to use any of the Drum programs (Addictive Drummer, EZDrummer, etc.) can be a bit of a daunting task. If you don't have a decent grasp of how to "be a drummer", it is easy to "make a mess of things". And you can end up spending all your time "trying to get the thing to do what you want"...instead of MAKING MUSIC.
Check to see if SONAR has a preset for a Stereo Drum Track (which is what you get out of BIAB). Finding one might be all you need. I use Presonus Studio One Professional - which has a preset called "S1 Drumgroup"... droping that on a BIAB drum track livens it up considerable. And then keeping the drums at the proper level (loud enough to drive the track) is often all that is required...
For what it’s worth: In my opinion, Native’s Abbey Road Drums are sooo detailed and well recorded. You can change the sample-pool (snare hit, tap....) on every single note, my personal favorite. Plus, you have a whole range of studio grade effects to your disposal that you can assign to all parts of the kit, separately. Analogue drums Pizazz and Smoker are detailed too, little bit more difficult to set up, sadly, but definitely modern sounding. But, granted, Addictive drums has some nice gear. There’s so much nice stuff out there. I try to practice a lot to keep my head off buying new stuff,
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
You're getting some good ideas. My experience may or may not be better.
I really like the sound of Real Drums, but there are a couple of limitations. One is that not all of them handle pushes and stops well. The other is that you can't do any mixing or change effects with them-what you hear is what you get. That hasn't always worked for me.
I use midi drums for all my songs now. Stops and pushes work well. I can also edit them if I want.
For sounds I use Westwood Drums ($5 on sale)or MT Power Drums (free). Before you spend any money, I would audition these programs. The learning curve is almost non-existent. Both have a mixer which allows application of their reverb or you can leave it off and use your own. MT has a built-in compressor which you can use or not.
As for process, I have BIAB generate the drums. Then I edit if necessary. Then I assign one of these programs to the drums as a plug-in. I use the mixer to solo so I can assign the snare, kick, toms and cymbals to separate tracks on my DAW. You can also have tracks with overhead and room sounds.
I'm sure you can do this with Addictive Drummer and EZ Drummer also. They probably have a lot more features. I'm just trying to give you another idea.
...I really like the sound of Real Drums, but there are a couple of limitations. One is that not all of them handle pushes and stops well. The other is that you can't do any mixing or change effects with them-what you hear is what you get. That hasn't always worked for me.
2b
There is a limited way around this. At the end of each RD audio file (found in the RealDrums folder) there are individual sounds for each kit component for that specific RD. With my DAW (Logic Pro X) it is easy take one of the sounds (clipping it from the file) and then double that sound on another track. With the original RD track set as a Logic Pro "groove" track I can very quickly double the kick and or snare and then process them to my liking. Toms and cymbals, etc., are not so easy for an entire track but easy for an emphasis here and there.
I assume that other DAW's have a similar "groove track" function. If not you can manually comp in, for example, a snare to match the snare hits in the RD. But given that RD's are human you will have to do some nudging here and there. The groove function does it in a snap and they are all perfectly aligned.
Afterwards I tweak one of Wave's CLA Drums "room" presets on the RD track then find a preset to tweak that I like for the individual components.
YMMV, FWIW, etc.
Bud
PS Shoutout to floyd for his above RD analysis and for putting me on to doubling the snare years ago.
I find also right clicking on the RealDrums track in a style and selecting the “QuickList in Style” option also offers a lot more control over RealDrums. Then going through the various options offers more ways the RealDrums play on a given style. For me it has cleaned up a lot of drum tracks.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Before you go out and spend money, figure out the answers to his questions. I would be asking the same or similar questions as well.
If you are using the tracks from BB & RB straight out of the box, even as good as they are, you should really be using some treatment on the tracks to .....as Floyd said.... make them pop.
I absolutely love my custom designed Cakewalk plugs and Ozone software for audio tweeking. I use a lot of presets that I have tweezed over time, and saved. I have specific ones for practically every instrument. Drums, bass, and guitar is especially critical to get a good tone with.....plus vocals.... can't forget the vocals.
Using a good audio plug is crucial. It means the difference between a so-so drum kit sound and one that really gets the job done.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Well I guess I will have to disagree and say that EZ Drummer is well, easy. I do agree that defining ‘pro sound’ is entirely subjective.
But it is a very easy program to use with very usable results in the first go. You do not need to be a drummer to use it. You do need to know a little about styles and what not and what your song structure is going to be.
.. but I often hear from pros that the drums could be better.
Better how? The playing? Try forcing fills where you want them by using the part markers. Once in a DAW, copy/paste the good fills over ones that may not fit as well. (or generate more to work with)
If it is the 'sound' of the drums; EQ, Compression, Enhancer/Exciters .. there are lots of ways to make the drum sound itself improved. PGMusic leaves enough headroom in the drum tracks to allow you to do this without much hassle. Even when we work with live drum recordings (which we do 9 out 10 times) there is a bit of FX work to do on them; this is not something unique to realdrums.
We have one song our drummer didn't want to play .. replaced him with RDs without much issue. In our initial pre-release testing (having other musicians/audiophiles critique it before committing to print) nobody has mentioned the RDs yet.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
I do 90% of my songwriting and recording in February every year as part of the February Album Writing Month; where the challenge is to write 14 songs in the month of February. I also usually record a demo of the song. I take 4-6 to do the recordigs.
In this regard, I've found EZ Drummer to be an insanely good solution as a songwriter. I end up with drums that have not caused me more than 10-15 minutes of work to lay out the song structure (intro, verses, choruses, pre-chorus, outro).
I don't do any particular processing on the drum tracks. I use a DAW template for a delay and reverb send/returns, and I'll send the drums to those and maybe play with the send level, but that's about it.
Here's some stuff from the past 2 years where I'm quite happy with the drum sounds - I will let others decide whether or not they are 'pro sound'. I don't know if these sound better or worse than BIAB. But since I play everything in my songs, besides drums, I may be partial to this 'drummer in a box' type thing that EZ Drummer allows me with very little effort.
Cakewalk by BandLab has two ProChannel presets for stereo drums. However, there are four additional presets suitable for individual drum tracks sent through a bus.
If you want to get an idea of what drum plug-in programs offer, try using the drum plug-in included with Cakewalk by BandLab, Studio Drums, which is part of the Studio Instruments suite.
The Studio Instruments GUI includes many drumkits and patterns so you can practice and learn how to use such tools for free since you already have it.
BandLab calls Studio Instruments Suite an add-on. Open Bandlab Assistant Select "Apps" tab Select the down arrow next to the Cakewalk by BandLab "Open" button Pop-up sub menu displays Select "Install Add-ons ..." Pop-up sub menu displays Check "Studio Instruments Suite" Select Install button.
Note: The Melodyne selection is a time limited free trial. If you install it there is no way to uninstall it. You can get the same thing from the Celemony website.
I have not installed Drum Replacer or Theme Editor. Theme Editor allows you to modify the Cakewalk by BandLab interface colors. Drum Replacer tries to identify drum hits and lets you replace existing sounds with other sounds of your choice. I haven't played with either.
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