Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Janice and I come from years of playing 3-6 chord bluegrass, blues and classic country -- a lot of what is now known as Americana. Beyond that we get a bit lost with neither of us knowing any theory. We are working on a PD song published in 1914 called Ballin' The Jack. It introduced a new dance and has been done by everybody from Judy Garland to Dean Martin to Pearl Bailey to Fats Domino to show tune formats. We tried some of the very simple progressions but tend to like the more early jazz versions. Below is a 16 bar verse we found presented as being in G. The chords seemed odd but sound pretty good so I looked at more versions and many of them although in other keys were relatively the same as this.

So I'll show my ignorance (ample precedent) --- aren't the E, Eb and F# chords odd for the key? Thanks for any help and perhaps my ignorance has given you a good laugh!

J&B


E - - - /E - F#7 B7/C7 - - - /C7 - A7 D7/
Eb7 - - - /Eb7 - - -/C7 - - -/ C7 - B7 - /
E - - - / E - F#7 B7 / C7 - - - / C7 - A7 D7/
Eb7 - - - /Eb7 - - -/C7 - - -/ B - D7 - /

Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,113
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,113
I’m not a theory guy, self taught, but those chord changes look like key of ‘E’ to me, not ‘G’. Nice progression BTW.

I’m sure one of the jazz guys will chime in wink

Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Thanks Dave.

I had thought it was the wrong key until I found it again with a stated key of G. At which point I assumed I must be missing something smile But yeah the progression works.

Bud

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Can you save us some time and post a BIAB song with this progression?


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Can you save us some time and post a BIAB song with this progression?


I don’t want to take up your time. Thought it would be a quick question. Sorry.

Janice

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
OK. I plugged it into BIAB. It has a quirky sound that grows on you.

Someone might say it's in G because of the chords at the turnaround at the end. You would expect a G major chord after D7.

But that's clearly not the key. I think it comes 'home' to E major.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Thank you Matt! We appreciate it. I dropped it into BiaB along with the chorus.

Here it is with the verse and the chorus. The chorus does resolve to a G FWIW.




J&B

Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,867
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,867
Hi J&B,

Oooooh... this looks like fun smile

One of the basic theoretical shortcuts for helping to analyse music is that when looking for modulations, isolate the 7th chords. If these chords form a V7 to I (e.g. G7 to C) or V7 to VI (e.g. G7 to Am), then the music has been temporarily modulated.

Often such temporary modulations occur so quickly that there is no accompanying (pun not intended but I like it) feeling that a modulation has occurred.

So with the above couple of thoughts in mind, my take on this is...

At the end of this progression we see "D7", if the next chord is "G" then a V7-I progression has occurred and the music in the subsequent section that's not provided is indeed in the key of G major (or G minor if the chord following D7 is Gm -- this is still a I-V progression in a minor key).

Now for the chord progression...

For ease of reference, I'll ignore the 7s and just look at the major/minor chords.

If I consider E as a tonic (i.e. E = chord I), Then the first four chords E-F#-B-C is a I-II-V-bVI progression.

Now if the C chord is a pivot chord and it becomes chord IV in the key of G (i.e C changes from bVI in the key of E to IV in the key of G) , we have the progression C-A-D-Eb expressed as IV-II-V-bVI. A pattern of II-V-bVI now seems to be emerging... let's continue and see what happens smile

If the C (second line of chords, chord #3) now starts out as IV in the key of G major and changes into into bVI in the key of E major (i.e. it's another pivot chord), we have the chord progession C-B-E-F#-B-C (in the key of E major) as bVI-V-I-II-V-bVI.

So it looks like the above progression revolves around a II-V-bVI progression in the keys of E and G major with chord II being the major chord rather than the usual minor chord that's found on the second degree of the major scale. The C chord seems to be the pivot chord that allows transition between keys.

So below is a picture that I hope summarises my interpretation (the chords with asterisks seem to be pivot chords -- that is they straddle two keys and allow for a change from one key to another)...

Just my thoughts.... I could be totally wrong!
Noel

P.S. Here's a pretty good article on using bVI chords in music.

https://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/2018/03/05/3-great-ways-to-use-a-flat-vi-chord-in-your-major-key-progressions/

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)

MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2024
Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,113
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,113
Wow! Way too much theory for me :P

All I can say as an old, uneducated, blues player with 40+ years playing experience, when I hear those changes I would be playing in the key of ‘E’ .

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
I started down the analytical route Noel took, but decided the composer is being too cute. That's why I keyed the changes into BIAB and lived with it a few minutes. This convinced me it's in E.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 461
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 461
I am not a theory guy so I had my key plugin try and figure it out and here is the result.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
key.JPG (29.6 KB, 122 downloads)

BIAB 2024 Ultrapack- Studio One Pro 6.5 Windows 10

Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Maybe this is a simpleton approach but looking through the chord progression and not seeing a single instance of a G chord, my brain has a hard time believing it’s in G.

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Scott, you’re absolutely right.

Brian, the program you used got fooled big time.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,867
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,867
The more I think about this, this more I'm of the opinion that this verse sets out not to have an easily identifiable tonal centre so that when the song arrives at the chorus, the sense of 'home base' is amplified and felt strongly.

I found the image below of a version that's written in the key of G major. The chords you give are a minor third lower than the chords on this music. This suggests that your chords are in the 'overall' key of E major.

Notice how the at the bottom right of the below image, there are two flats in the upcoming key signature (this suggests Bb major) and the last chord is F7 (which leads to Bb major as a V-1 progression).

Interestingly if I go down a minor third from F7, I get D7 (the last chord in your above post). Also a minor 3rd down from Bb is G -- also in keeping with your post.

So... using the image below, your chords would seem to be in E major but drifting every now into a slightly hinted key of G.

You might find that you get better results from BIAB if you set the key for the verse to E and the key to the chorus to G. My experience is that such settings help BIAB isolate which chords will work best.

Regards,
Noel

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
J&B - ballin the jack key G.png (14.63 KB, 116 downloads)

MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2024
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,353
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,353
I suspect (maybe wrongly) that the suggestion it is in the key of G is incorrect.

In the diatonic scale, the intervals for an E major chord would land on a G# as the first triad. I like to think that discordance is allowed, but to me this is a little too challenging.

The only chord that comes close to suggest G Major, is the Eb which would have G natural as the first triad and include a D natural as the 7th.

Even the C7 would introduce a Bb, which would lead more to a G minor key.

Regardless, Bud, there are no stupid questions (well not on this forum anyway). Moreover, I think you've already identified that this progression is peculiar for a tune supposed to be in the the of G Major and suspect that it is incorrect.

My definite guess is E Major.


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 878
J
Expert
Offline
Expert
J
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 878
Wondering what style you used on the song.


BIAB2024
Windows 10 Pro
WA6NCB
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,058
I very rarely use styles. Having worked with RTs and RDs for years I like to make up a band per each production.

This song will have a rockabilly bass, Nashville Drums, a jazz rhythm guitar, a 40's boogie piano (Midi Super Track ultimately), a fiddle chop rhythm and either a gypsy jazz or a western swing fiddle for the solo. As always Janice will do the vocals.

Here is a very ROUGH representation of how the chords sound with what will become the band.
Please note the word "rough" as I have done NO track comping which I nearly always do to
remove funky notes, improve segues, enhance fills, etc., and make the tracks more compatible with the vocal.

Rough progression demo

Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,384
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,384
Guys don't look at the sheet music, just listen to how Judy performs this on YouTube. This song changes keys - you can hear it easily. grin


Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
I remember this song. The chord changes you have are messed up.

If you want to play it in G (easier than E in some ways), you might think of it this way:

Two measures of E
Two measures of A
Two measures of D
Two measures G

This completes the cycle for the verse. If you start there, you can find other chords that might fit.

For the line "That's what I call ballin' the jack", try Am Bm C C#dim D G

Hope this helps.

2b


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,324
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,324
The thing I have learned about music in all the years I have studied theory, (several years of study on theory) and played my instruments both with and without lessons. My piano teacher was big on explaining the theory behind the music to make it understandable, and I was in a music theory class and that's all we studied, and worked things out with a piano..... It breaks down as follows.

There are essentially TWO rules in music.

1. There are rules in music that must be followed.
2. There are no rules in music and thou canst doth whatever thou wish.

So, no matter what the key and what you expect to hear or to have happen next, it doesn't matter as long as, in the context of how it is used, it sounds good. No chord or progression is off limits if you can make it work.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,732
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,732
In addition to Herb, you can usually trace a confusing music passage back to theory rules. I found this out recently with Modes.




Steve

BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,944
Jim Offline
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,944
I you want/need to see the sheet music released in 1913...
You can it here...
https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/151/060

The sheet has the song in G & Bb


Jim
†=☮&♥
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!

Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!

Learn more about this free update for PowerTracks Pro Audio & download it at www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_pt.htm#2024_5

The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!

The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!

Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.

This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245

The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option

Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!

Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!

For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.

Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.

Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,590
Posts734,780
Members38,501
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
mandella, Krystal Mcclain, Tusar Sarkar, RTW, wtsy365
38,501 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 189
DC Ron 111
WaoBand 80
dcuny 76
Today's Birthdays
Vrat Houdek
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5