I'm working on a piece that originally started out in BiaB, but is now in Cakewalk, and has grown to 10 tracks. There are times I wish I could go back and forth between the two programs for various things that BiaB can do that Cakewalk can't. But I can't because BiaB has a max of 7 tracks, but even worse, the way it handles MIDI files (that aren't PGM) is laughable.
So, actually, I'd like to see not only an expansion of the number of tracks one can work on, but also faithful rendition of MIDI files that are more than one or two tracks (and yes, I tried importing as type 0 and type 1).
MuseScore3 handles the ten track MIDI file from Cakewalk beautifully. It even assigns the correct instruments (BiaB sort of got close, but then assigned a totally lame style, which killed it). Why shouldn't BiaB be able to do the same?
Some of the new features and enhancements of 2019 and 2020 versions of BIAB were to revisit features and enhance techniques that have actually been available in the program for years. For years, BIAB has been capable of creating songs completely within the program that contain dozens of instruments and dozens of tracks. Each track in the BIAB mixer can interchange instruments and can have up to 10 instruments per channel. These tracks can either play back and forth alternately or play simultaneously. The new thickening feature offered in 2020 takes advantage of this feature. The tracks now have panning and volume so any loudness difference between the recorded audio of the different instruments can be leveled out.
PGMusic staff have developed more Medley RealTracks that showcase using multiple instruments on a track. There are many ways to trigger the instrument changes such as by part marker, number of bars and manually programming instrument changes at any bar.
Because the BIAB search engine reads ahead, it knows when an instrument change out is about to occur and intelligently selects endings for the first instrument and a beginning for the second instrument resulting in very smooth transitions. It is also not uncommon for the two instruments to overlap very realistically to how a live hand off between two instruments occurs in real life.
Using the Audio Channel and Performance Tracks make it quite easy to create sub-mixes or bounce tracks to free some of the Mixer's seven tracks to generate new tracks, new bounces allowing a single project to total of dozens of tracks from the seven that are visible. Because these bounces are digital, there's no degradation of the audio quality. Midi tracks and RealTracks and Performance tracks can be used together to create a sub mix. This also allows a single project to be made using dozens of different Styles.
Very complex, high quality songs can be constructed that are indistinguishable from a project where much of this type work is normally done in a DAW.
I've posted some songs on the User Showcase with around 14-15 different instruments and that have 15-17 tracks as well and completed the whole project in a single instance of BIAB.
I also make use of the Edit\Copy Special\Copy Move command to separate the channels of an imported Midi File which freezes the track and allows applying high quality HI-Q patches or VST patches to the midi track.
You may find some use from these somewhat hidden features and enhancements. I have a lot of fun and it can be interesting and challenging creating complex projects just using BIAB, no DAW, not even RB.
Hey Charlie, thanks for your response. This is useful info I wasn't entirely aware of. I know about instrument medleys, if you will, in BiaB, but not the level of sophistication you're talking about. But I don't believe it addresses my problem, which has to do with portability. Simply put, the BiaB mixer is too confining for my purposes. And not being able to move a more complex piece back and forth between BiaB and my DAW is limiting. With this one piece I'm working on, I'm having to use three different versions of the piece in BiaB, exporting portions of each into CW, where I recombine them into a larger work. As it so happens, I felt the need to expand a section of chorus, so I've had to import these three different versions into CW to patch into my CW mix. It works okay, but it is time consuming, requiring a fair level of attention to detail.
I guess I need to view some tutorials on the topics you mention. But still, I'd want to be able to separate out the instruments that are bundled within tracks. If that can be done, that would be really useful then.
Michael, I think in essence you are asking to be able to have more tracks, Midi in particular. There were several requests to OPEN up the mixer, so users do not have to be, as you pointed out, "confined" or limited. Basically channels on demand... Midi or RTs
Charlie has workarounds that he shares. He knows his way (Huge respect!)... However a user does not have to be a juggler in my opinion. Ping pong days of 4 track are long gone. This is straight forward stuff that needs to be available at your finger tips. Period.
I would love to do more midi stuff in BIAB, so I can hear everything with real tracks, without jumping from program to program, saving /re saving / importing / exporting... and so on. As of now it is a bit of a pain below the waistline.
I have been asking for years that PGMusic open all 16 tracks so users can use them as they please. I hope that you have more luck implementing this than I did.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Out of curiosity to better understand your personal workflow processes and needs, Michael, could you share a little more detail about this current project you're working on and the limitations you have with BIAB. As I stated, BIAB is very capable of creating complex arrangements that aren't workarounds but are designed by PGMusic to operate in certain fashions, marketed by PGMusic as FEATURES, not workarounds and over the past two version releases have made substantial enhancements to some features. There may be techniques that you're not using in your normal BIAB workflow that once aware of, may make your projects more enjoyable.
Mario, can you provide some detail to how you would make a midi project using the additional channels? My current Yamaha 670 and previous 910 keyboards had 16 track multi track recording which is how I made backing tracks before I began using BIAB. I understand the channels and layering, etc and see the convenience of having the same capability in BIAB and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the shortcomings of BIAB not having a 16 channel multi track.
Okay, I should have mentioned this at the outset, so I'm mentioning it now. I'm still using BiaB v2017. I have v2019, but it does not play nice on my computer, and v2017 is just barely tolerable at that. Lots and lots of rice crispies. My laptop, which also has 2017, and which is a good deal slower than my desktop, with half the RAM, has no problems with 2017, however. So IF I upgrade to 2020, I'll probably have to make room for it on my laptop because I suspect that it won't work at all on my desktop.
Anyway, on to the topic: Charlie, I'm not sure what you mean by "workaround," and it seems to me that what PGM might consider to be features might be viewed by others as limitations.
The piece I'm currently working on, which I began composing in BiaB, by the way, has 10 tracks:
Acoustic Bass Drums Electric Piano Acoustic Piano Guitar Voice Oohs Strings I Strings II Contrabass Melody
Aside from the pianos and guitar, the strings parts and the voices are also polyphonic, having as many as four voices per track. I don't need to separate them out any further than I have. But if I were having to deal with tracks that were any more dense than these, well, that might just be a problem. What about balance, i.e., volume for each instrument? Separation? Rhythmic adjustments? EQ?
Even dealing within BiaB, I find it frustrating that I cannot edit any part but the melody or soloist. Seems to me that, if I can see the score for the other parts, I should dang well be able to edit them too. Well, I can see why that might not be the case for RealTracks, but what's PGM's excuse for MIDI parts not being editable?
Other than this, the limitations I'm facing is that, if I want to export parts to Cakewalk, it is indeed possible to export entire songs from BiaB, but then once in CW, I have to pick out the parts I want to use and discard the rest, cuz I have no need for three drum set and three basses, for example. And in a few cases, the parts are doubled, so I just discard the duplicates. But where it gets really tricky is if I want to bring something I've written in CW back into BiaB. I have to make sure that there are no more than six parts being imported and, worst of all, I've had trouble with BiaB doing what it's supposed to, and separating the individual parts out to distinct tracks. It tends to want to lump everything together into one track -- and it doesn't seem to matter if I go with MIDI type 0 or 1, either. So it can get frustrating.
Thanks for getting back so quickly. I agree with you that using midi back and forth is pretty daunting. I'm thinking Mario will have similar issues to what you've stated. For some reason, I was thinking you were exporting your midi as audio from BIAB to CW. Definitely more tracks to handle the channels is the best solution in your circumstances. Likely the same for Mario.
Maybe you could have an AUX button you click at the bottom of the mixer to show the AUX Tracks ? And how many AUX tracks do you need ? In the pic I have 5 RT, 2 Mid and 2 Audio. These will be just like extra Audio tracks that you can move RealTracks to so they will be playing from a file like a Performance Track as you can only have 7 playing from RAM. You could have 16 midi tracks. Would that work for what you need ?
Mario, can you provide some detail to how you would make a midi project using the additional channels? My current Yamaha 670 and previous 910 keyboards had 16 track multi track recording which is how I made backing tracks before I began using BIAB. I understand the channels and layering, etc and see the convenience of having the same capability in BIAB and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the shortcomings of BIAB not having a 16 channel multi track.
Hi Charlie,
I am used to working with 16 MIDI tracks. In BiaB I would use each track for the addition of other MIDI tracks and/or Realtracks. Thus I could easily have 16 MIDI tracks, 16 RT tracks, or any combination of MIDI and RTs. I could even have two or more drummers if I wanted. Of course the mixer would also have to be modified to accommodate all 16 tracks. I would also want a A/B switch so one could have all 16 tracks available to them (B) or keep it the same as it is now (A).
OR PGMusic could keep it as it is now and add another 16 track MIDI/RT/RD I/O. Either way I would be a happy camper. YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Mario, "OR PGMusic could keep it as it is now and add another 16 track MIDI/RT/RD I/O." +1 on that
P.S. Probably it would be cleaner to do this as "tracks on demand" (add as many as you want, with reasonable limits) or even project templates.
Michael, I feel your frustrations as I too have issues bringing some midi arrangements to BIAB from other places and as soon as I do...I got to take couple of advils ahead of time. Going out to Cakewalk another 2 advils.
I am curious, what kind of laptop you have? I tried 2018 BIAB on a 8 year old, i5 laptop, it worked fine...
My laptop is an 11 yo gamer platform made by Gateway. It has a 2.8 GHz quad core AMD processor and 8 GB of RAM, which is the most it can handle. One reason why I like it and keep it around is because it has a 17" wide screen and a full-size keyboard. It's heavy and battery life sucks, but I don't care. It is what it is.
It runs BiaB great. I wish my desktop, which is faster and has twice the RAM, ran BiaB as nice as the laptop does.
Mario, I can't play a keyboard but by using the multi track feature on my keyboards in the past, I literally used each track as a finger layering chords, riffs and melodies to get what an average musician plays with both hands. Tedious work. Years ago (in the early 90's) my daughter gave me a book of piano chords that was a great help. I practiced a chord change or riff long enough to get it recorded once. I recall having to stop my recording if I needed to look up how to make a Bm chord...
I have been asking for years that PGMusic open all 16 tracks so users can use them as they please. I hope that you have more luck implementing this than I did.
I tried Biab with the RapidComposerVST with 16 midi tracks and when you change the chords the midi changes to fit.
I have been asking for years that PGMusic open all 16 tracks so users can use them as they please. I hope that you have more luck implementing this than I did.
I tried Biab with the RapidComposerVST with 16 midi tracks and when you change the chords the midi changes to fit.
Good idea but right now money is a little tight so forking out $199 for a program that BiaB should not need is out of the question.
{edit} - Hopefully sometime soon I can experiment with Drag and Drop a BiaB song into my DAW and using the BiaB VSTi to add tracks.
Last edited by MarioD; 01/07/2004:22 AM.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I really wish they would separate out the MIDI and audio/real tracks, rather than overlay them. That would also allow for style changes from real to MIDI and vice versa. And then rename the tracks generically to completely get away from the legacy track names (which are still required for shots and holds). It would probably mean a new file format (so users of older versions couldn't read these new files), but bringing in old files should be a simple mapping exercise that computers do nicely that can then be saved in the new format.
I would love to see 16 track MIDI (existing styles can just map to seven of those channels), which would open up the ability for more style tracks. Then at least 7 (to cover the current tracks limit, but maybe 16 too match the MIDI) RealTracks. And then an audio track for when you bring in an audio file for ACW, separate from the content you create.
Oh, and while we're at it, how about no more 8.3 file names and 8th note chord resolution.
Just ideas. I love what BIAB can do, but also see that it has the potential for so much more.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA
I really wish they would separate out the MIDI and audio/real tracks, rather than overlay them. That would also allow for style changes from real to MIDI and vice versa. And then rename the tracks generically to completely get away from the legacy track names (which are still required for shots and holds). It would probably mean a new file format (so users of older versions couldn't read these new files), but bringing in old files should be a simple mapping exercise that computers do nicely that can then be saved in the new format.
I agree
Originally Posted By: jford
I would love to see 16 track MIDI (existing styles can just map to seven of those channels), which would open up the ability for more style tracks. Then at least 7 (to cover the current tracks limit, but maybe 16 too match the MIDI) RealTracks. And then an audio track for when you bring in an audio file for ACW, separate from the content you create.
Oh, and while we're at it, how about no more 8.3 file names and 8th note chord resolution.
Just ideas. I love what BIAB can do, but also see that it has the potential for so much more.
Again I agree.
PS - don't for get to add real time signatures, i.e. not be limited to 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
....Good idea but right now money is a little tight so forking out $199 for a program that BiaB should not need is out of the question.....
I just started with the Light Edition and if you need you can upgrade at any time just for the extra.
http://www.musicdevelopments.com/shop.html $ 199 133 RapidComposer Full Edition Light Edition Features + 2 Melody Generators, Idea Tool, Percussion Generator, articulations, phrase morphing, unlimited tempo and signature changes
$ 79 53 RapidComposer Light Edition Core functionality, VSTi and soundfont support, standalone and VST versions (Windows and macOS), all updates until v4.99, thousands of reusable phrases, product support
While not wanting to get too far off base, I also forgot about the 255 bar limit. With multi-terrabyte hard drives, 64-bit processing, gigabytes of available RAM, etc, 255 is a very, very small number as a limitation.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA
more audio tracks, more midi tracks no more 8.3 file names and 8th note chord resolution real time signatures, i.e. not be limited to 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4
Biab was designed as an accompaniment program with styles like a keyboard, everything in Biab seems to be built on 8.3, 255, rounded tempos and mock time signatures. RealBand was suppose to take care of all this.
What way do you go ? Put more resources into the Biab Plugin ? Create a whole new product ?
Face it. It's time for a major facelift. Like what M$ did when they went from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. It might have pissed off 3.1 users, but it was a game changer that benefited all M$ users in the long run. (I was an OS/2 user at the time, so I didn't care much one way or another, since I was using a superior product)
Anyway, the same will happen with Band in a Box users. It will grow in use by leaps and bounds. The platform now is bug-ridden and rickety. It's past time for a clean sheet of paper. One of my biggest pet peeves is being stuck with 16bit/44.1Hz when the rest of the world has been using 24bit/96kHz (and higher) for over 20 years.
I don't disagree but jeesh, how many times to we have to write this? Is it really necessary, I would say just give it a rest. Nothing's been done about these things as long as I've been on the forum. I've written all of these points too in who knows how many threads for years and years and years and, and...
It's pointless imho, PGM is well aware, they'll either do it or they won't. Until then get used to Real Band, it does address some of these issues but not all.
You talking to me, or another Mike? I don't recall ever having RB crash on me. I'm just not used to the interface and I feel disinclined to have to learn how to use another DAW product right now. If I'm gonna spend the time to learn another DAW, it's probably gonna be Reaper.
Maybe the plugin code can be added to Ardour to create a new 64 bit cross-platform RealBand DAW, it works with scripting like Reaper so no more workarounds just create a script to do what you need. Get it to play from RAM but then be able to write to a tracks also.
THe codebase of BiaB is so old that you can actually see it. Just have a look at those dialogs *
From a programmers standpoint it would be tempting to start from scratch and leave all the legacy code behind. But this is only for the fun of it. Unless you have a really big team it's bound ti fail. So in reality it's only possible to do iterative changes. Depending on nature and quality of the code this takes time. If you are understaffed it will take a very long time.
Masi
* I hope they can use different dialogs in the VSTi. To me all of they dialogs are an example of bad usability (too many issues to list them all in this post).
I'll make a prediction right now -- and this is coming from a person who's been using BiaB for 22 years now, and still using it because there is nothing else that can do what it does. Someday that will change. Someday a bright group of young turks is gonna figure out a way to do what BiaB does, but in a slick, streamlined, bug-free interface. And it will spell the beginning of the end of BiaB. Now, I hope this doesn't happen. But I suspect it will. Because that is simply the nature of things.
Very, very true! But it can change in a better direction for BIAB with a few efficient steps and relatively small cost.
Mainly: 1) make the interface (Design !!!) and workflow! as smooth as possible using old code. 2) make a demo version of the program with included VERY SIMPLE, in your face" video to start things, for somebody who never used BIAB. 3)Make the the initial package even "lighter" (less RT's) and cheaper, so more people can try it. 4)Advertise better, there are so many channels... 5)Make upgrades less complicated (all these choices!) 6) And if you see proper traction, hire somebody with proper set of skills who can orchestrate a fast and painless re-write
Someday that will change. Someday a bright group of young turks is gonna figure out a way to do what BiaB does, but in a slick, streamlined, bug-free interface. And it will spell the beginning of the end of BiaB.
Anything's possible but I doubt it. What's the heart of Biab? Styles. Creating a chord track like Studio One has or even having the ability to alter chords using Melodyne or whatever is nice but that has nothing to do with styles and how to use them inside a DAW to create a complete song arrangement.
People see how a DAW can take individual audio/midi tracks and allow you to move them around to create a song and think that's what Biab does. No it's not. As you know Biab does all the creation and arranging for you using pretty smart music theory based AI. This is a very small niche market I doubt it would catch any "young turks" attention. Most young musicians are all about loop based "bedroom producer" stuff.
The closest thing I've seen in all the different plugin's and music programs to Biab is Jamstix. It has the ability to create a new drum track for you based on an audio file. You have a lot of control as to how that's done similar to how Biab works.
Otherwise there are programs like EZKeys, EZDrums, various guitar instrument plugins that have tons of different phrases in many styles for you to pick from. All of that is great but it's you putting this all together manually. Nobody has 6,000 styles that group all that stuff together for you with a few mouse clicks and then generate a complete song in a few seconds.
I don't see anybody trying to do an end run around PGM patents to try to come out with thousands of pretty decent styles and then using those styles to sort through all the hundreds or thousands of different instrument tracks to put together a coherent song. It's the styles that controls everything. A style has 6 total tracks and somehow behind the scenes Biab knows which tracks to grab out of the thousands available to use. If it's midi I can see that's relatively easy because it's creating a new midi track from scratch but the RT's? Man, that's a whole other thing.
Let's look at midi since it's easier. Everybody knows the sound quality is totally based on the synth. Biab uses GM for simplicity. Say a new company doesn't. A great sounding synth costs big bucks. What are they going to do come up with their own high end synth for sound in their new program? That alone is a huge project. Or do they let you buy what you want? Do that and they'll get all the same complaints we see here. Why do my tracks sound like crap? It's because you're using a crap sound source.
How do they select the exact instrument for a given track? Well that depends on the synth too. GM is simple, same patch numbers regardless of the synth. I suppose a new program could be tailored to the different big name synths. One version for Sample Tank 4, another version for Kontakt another for Halion etc but look at all the different instrument packs you can buy for each. That would be a total complete mess. Thousands of patches available. Can you imagine the nooby questions their forum would get?
And this is just for the midi side, what about audio like the RT's? Where's the source for a new company to provide audio parts? Unless they're going to hire all the same people PG has to record them where would they come from?
That sounds like a huge challenge to me for somebody to try to beat Biab at it's own game.
Bob, all your points are good ones. And I may be all wet in my prediction. But I hope I'm not. Why? Because the one thing that PGM needs more than anything else is competition. They have become stagnant, complacent, and insensitive to demands because they don't have to worry about anyone else trying to outdo them with a superior product, a lower price, or both. We all know -- or at least we should -- that competition improves the product for all concerned. BiaB is not immune to this. In fact, it shows clearly why competition is necessary.
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