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bear with me, i'm trying to take my music making to the next step up. i've made backing tracks in BIAB and then recorded vocals etc in Powertracks and then burned cds of the various tracks with results i'm happy with.
now i'd like to really make use of the RealTracks in BIAB and the recording strengths of RealBand.
firstly, i know that BIAB Realtracks are 16 bit 44.1 sample rate. From reading forums I've seen that one recommendation is to record in 24 bit depth and that the difference between 24 and 16 is much more significant than changing from 44.1 to 48 sample rate.
is that reasonably accurate? (I can change the sample rate too if the forum thinks that's necessary)
so how do I go about it? do i simply change my audio preferences to 24 bit 44.1 (or 48) and then make sure the asio driver for my audio interface matches that when i come to record vocals?
presumably RB will use the resampler to deal with the 16 bit 44.1 RealTracks. (set to best i presume also that deterioration in the quality will be minimal)
so is that it? and what happens when i want to burn a cd? do i just export the master mix to a wav file (which i think will be 24 bit 44.1 or 48) and then let my cd burning software handle the conversion to 16 bit 44.1 quality? or should i do the conversion in RB and if so how?
any advice on sample rates, bit depth and recommendations for working methods gladly received. thanks in advance
for cd burning i have NERO but i also have audacity if that can be useful somewhere along the line
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I've changed interfaces and OS recently, so take this with a grain of salt. Had my challenges setting things back up <grin> The effects of changing your bit depth and sample rate MAY depend a lot on how your audio drivers handle things. When using RT's I'd question the value of such a change versus the time spent dealing with it .. but that's just me. If it was a totally new project in RB or PT, I may have a different answer, but when using BiaB generated tracks/song I'd question just how much improvement you'd get versus futzing with settings every time you open a new song. The improvement may be unnoticeable really. Here it hasn't always been handled 'automagically'. But again, I've made some significant system changes recently so take that into consideration. All I can offer is to try it and see. Just remember what you changed so you can change it back when needed. As far as final export, some mastering tools (like Ozone) offer Dithering which may also make a difference in the end result. Regardless of DAW used. Have Ozone (or similar) handle the 24/16 final conversion if needed. Sometimes the tools we already have can do a better job than counting on a 3rd party. Always liked this explanation - http://downloads.izotope.com/guides/izotope-dithering-with-ozone.pdf
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I'm new here and know practically nothing about BIAB.
Having said that, I have been spending quite a bit of time and energy trying to educate myself on recording.
I'll share a few observations:
-44.1 / 16 is and has been considered CD quality
-48 / 24 captures more info, even if you may not be able to hear it.
-48 is the standard for video.
-If you record at a lower rate the file will always be locked at that rate, changing the rate afterwards provides no benefit.
-If you record at a higher rate, the file can always be downsized for application that require less info.
-The industry is moving in the direction of higher sample rates 96 and even 192.
-Many pros are future proofing their work by using higher rates now.
-File size increases greatly as you increase your sample rate.
-Home studio operators are leaning more toward 44.1 /24 primarily to be more efficient with their file space & less concern about the future.
-I think it's reasonable to say 24 bits is the preferred bit rate regardless of what sample rate you select, it captures more dynamics.
Sorry I can't give any advise about BIAB.
Hope I didn't add any confusion or just waste time with stuff people already know.
Last edited by CaptainMoto; 01/08/20 03:41 AM.
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+1 on 44.1/24bit
48 "supposedly" better, and is usually recorded for video purposes. But we are humans, I think only single digit percentage of humans can detect 44.1 vs 48
44.1 is also lighter on computer resources.
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I also use 44.1/24 bit. 24 bit gives you more headroom when recording then 16 bit does, i.e. less noise at lower volumes.
The only way you will hear this or any other higher recording setting is having the original file on a computer with very expensive monitors. CDs are 44.1/16 bit and MP3s and streaming are even lower rates. So why record anything higher than 44.1/24 bit? YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Bob, this is one of those topics that everyone has their own preference and they are all right. It comes down to what do you like and what gets you the results you want with the equipment you have.
I work in 24bit/96KHz because I can. Once I have my BIAB tracks set, I upconvert them to this rate and work in my DAW that way until I finish the song. Am I wrong in doing it this way? No, it's just another of the MANY ways of producing music.
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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There are opinions and there are technical truths.
24 bit vs 16 bit is an easy technical truth to understand if you want to take the time.
It does not offer more headroom per se, because headroom is dependent on the analog side of signal processing.
However it does have a much better signal to quantization noise ratio.
With 16 bit a/d conversion there are 2^16, or 65,536 possible amplitude values for the digitized signal. With 24 bit a/d, there are 16,777,216 possible amplitude values for the digitized signal. The step up from silence to the very first non silent value is incredibly small for 24 bit digitized data compared to 16 bit. The quantization ‘noise’ that comes from the a/d picking an amplitude value, for the exact same analog amplitude, is way smaller with 24 bit compared to 16 bit. Think of quantization noise this way: if you consider the situation where there is a pure silent analog signal and the a/d is ‘choosing’ whether to put that signal at 00000000000000001 or 00000000000000000, for 16 bit, or 000000000000000000000001 vs 0000000000000000000000000 for 24 bit the resulting noise of the 16 bit choice to go one up from pure digital silence, is 48 dB louder than 24 bit making the same non zero, first value up from pure digital silence.
That’s true for every possible amplitude value, but it’s simplest thinking of a pure silent analog signal.
This means that with 24 bit you can feed your a/d a less than optimized gain analog signal and still get a very clean recording compared to the same less than optimized gain signal going in to 16 bit a/d.
This clean recording without much worry can sometimes be referred to as headroom but that’s not exactly what it is.
The benefits of recording at higher sample rates than 44.1 kHz have less technical merit as it pertains to how humans hear and how d/a conversion works.
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so the consensus is 24 bit 44.1 to record but i'm still at a loss to know how to get to burning a cd. when i use the render option in RB will the wav file be 24 bit? if so my nero cd burner will handle the transfer to 16 bit but is there a better way? and will i hear it on the final cd if i go for a program like ozone?
but ozone is horrendously expensive - any suggested alternatives as i presume nero will truncate not dither the bit dept reduction
Last edited by Bob Calver; 01/08/20 05:18 AM.
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I always use 44.1/24 for recording. The greater bit depth of 24 gives you more dynamic range (head room)than 16 bits, if I recall correctly.
With CD quality being 44.1/16 there is no problem and complete compatibility between 24 and 16 bits.
Unless someone is specifically asking for a different bit depth or sampling rate, stick with 44.1/24 and you can't go wrong.
They say that film likes to use 48 sample rate but I have several 44.1/16 songs in film and no one asked for anything different.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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so i still need to ask if i record at 24 bit and the realtracks are 16 bit, when i export a final mix wav file is it 24 or 16 bit? if its 16 bit how does RB handle the transfer from 24 to 16? i still need some information from the forum please
or does the 24 bit just get me better quality to export when the final mix is ready so the realtracks stay as they always were, and the new vocal track recorded at 24 bit exports and is changed to 16 bit but was a higher quality to start with which won't be totally eroded by the change to 16 bit.
or is this all academic and i won't really hear the difference if i stick to 16 bit 44.1 for my vocal tracks?
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I'm taking a logical guess.
- when a track is recorded in 16 bit it is always 16 bit
- if you incorporate that into a mix and use 24 bit, the 16 bit tracks will be at a lower resolution. then everything else in the mix.
- this would be like using a digital zoom on a low pixel photo.the image will be expanded but will be at lower definition.
Let's see if any experts weigh in.
Last edited by CaptainMoto; 01/12/20 12:40 PM.
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i think that's true CaptainMoto - 16 bit stays 16 bit and 24 bit remains 24 bit in the RB mix. But what happens when you export the file as a wav?
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Bob,
If you are recording in 24 bit RB will export/merge at 24 bit.
You can merge a file and look at it's properties or open in another DAW to verify.
The RT's will simply have a bunch of zeros added to them to make them 24 bit.
They won't get any better quality or any worse. They just get bigger due to the zeros.
Unless you have the audiophile version the RTs are getting converted from WMA to 16 bit wav format already.
If you go to 24 bit they'll get converted from wma to 24 bit .. and sound the same.
You can also use the 'merge to compressed file' feature and have RB render to 16/44 PCM (wav) if that's what you want.
Last edited by rharv; 01/12/20 04:18 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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thank you rharv - that makes things a lot clearer. i wasn't sure what would happen on the transfer to wav but that seems sensible
i'll mark the thread resolved
Last edited by Bob Calver; 01/12/20 12:42 PM.
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I'm a believer in setting everything to the lowest common denominator. For me that is 16 bit depth and 44.1K sample rate.
Both the PG Music wma and wav files are distributed as 16 bit files. My standalone hardware recorder stores at 16 / 44.1.
So my Band-in-a-Box, RealBand, Audacity and Cakewalk by Bandlab audio settings are 16 / 44.1K.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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That's fine if you have an interface that natively handles 16 bit
I worked this way for years with my Delta 1010 and switched back and forth between 16/24 at will.
By design everything the newer 18i20 handles it does so in 24 bit.
RB was giving me issues if set at 16 bit, but once I set it to 24 to match the system and interface life's a treat.
Rock solid. And clean.
Since everything is working fine now, 24 bit is the rule on this machine.
I'm OK with importing 16 bit audio to 24 bit DAW as that is a software function that seems to work fine but sending 16 bit signal to the 18i20 made it angry (either that or something in the computer's audio path was not happy).
Actually managed to blue screen it a couple of times when on W7 in 16 bit.
Not on W10 so far. Many things can factor into your bit rate decisions!
/Don't have the time or inclination to see if I can crash it now. <grin>
//If it ain't broke don't go trying to fix it
Last edited by rharv; 01/13/20 02:05 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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