I have an enormous amount of respect for Rick Beato.
In this test, he essentially proves conclusively that an uncompressed WAV file (Audiophile) is identified as superior over mp3 in the majority of cases, but disappointingly then suggests that it is not superior because it wasn't picked 100% of the time (in a blind test, the WAV file was clearly picked 4 out of 6 times).
With 6 very different genres of music from a wide-ranging and disparate selection, I believed that a majority positive result demonstrated a clear and concise identification that the WAV format had a leading edge over other formats.
I'm not sure why the author would then dismiss the result because the listener didn't get it right 100% of the time.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
We're also dealing with the area of physics called psychoacoustics. This means that what people hear depends on how the individual's anatomy works. The ears, head and brain function independently from person to person. In other words, what one person hears is not an indication of what another person hears. Collectively it's possible to take what happens on average, but it will never be able to be a 100% absolute result. To analyse the results properly, it would be necessary to use statistics. To do that, though, the test would need to be conducted with a much larger set than 6.
Hopefully Scott (rockstarnot) will add some information. He's our local physics of sound expert!
The above suggests that 2/6 did not have quite as sensitive hearing as the other 4.
Noel, thanks as always for chiming in.
It is possible to find many people with less sensitive hearing could not identify the subtle differences in sound quality of non-compressed vs compressed. But, that doesn't mean it isn't identifiable.
In this case, the same one very qualified person picked 4 out of 6 as being the WAV file. That's enough for me to come to a conclusion that there is a 'recognizable' difference.
Trev
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
The above suggests that 2/6 did not have quite as sensitive hearing as the other 4.
Noel, thanks as always for chiming in.
It is possible to find many people with less sensitive hearing could not identify the subtle differences in sound quality of non-compressed vs compressed. But, that doesn't mean it isn't identifiable.
In this case, the same one very qualified person picked 4 out of 6 as being the WAV file. That's enough for me to come to a conclusion that there is a 'recognizable' difference.
Trev
LOL! Caught out I typed first and listening was going to be my second step but I got sidetracked with Youtube. Oh well... I'll just chalk it up to the increasing frailness of my brain. I've modified my previous post so that I don't end up bamboozling people.
Actually Trev, the same principle holds true for just Michelle. A sample size of 6 is way too small to gauge the ability of her ears. It needs to be much larger -- around 30 or 40. But then we'd have audio fatigue settling in as well.
Also, for it to be a test whose results are reliable, all the samples should be the same 'everything' (instruments, musicians, recording set-up, etc.) with the only variable being different songs.
Since it's not realistic to go for the same 'everything', as a bare minimum, the test would have more meaning if (a) the genre and preferably (b) the gender of the vocalist (if any) were kept constant. It may well be that Michelle is able to hear clarity in jazz music with a male vocalist but not in pop music with a female vocalist (for example). I also suspect that having perfect pitch is a disadvantage rather than an advantage in this instance because if the music she hears has some element of de-tuning in one or more elements, that will be a magnet for her senses and could well colour the outcome.
It would be interesting to know what aspect of a mix Michelle focused on to make her primary judgement and which aspects (if any) she listened to to confirm her decision.
Not much wrong with your brain Noel, not given the skill you continually use to help so many other people on these forums. Others (including me) couldn't hold a candle.
Quote:
I also suspect that having perfect pitch is a disadvantage rather than an advantage in this instance because if the music she hears has some element of de-tuning in one or more elements, that will be a magnet for her senses and could well colour the outcome.
Great point, I'd never thought of it that way, but yes, with perfect pitch, any tonal nuances would potentially be more 'amplified'
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1: with the music being from so many different genres, it's possible to perceive that some songs are more favorable to the reviewer, and therefore listened to more intently.
2: Given the time differences of when the sample music performances might have been recorded, some songs must have been produced with audio recording different technologies, and that could have 'colored' the result one way or another.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I think too that one needs to consider who is listening and the environment they are listening in. I would think it would be impossible for most people to pick the difference between a .wav or a .MP3 @320Kbps being played through a PA in a dance hall full of dancers or a restaurant or even an aged care facility.
There is a huge difference listening on a truely great set of headphones in a studio that is soundproofed at a young age. I have the same headphones that are essentially wasted on me at 70 years of age listening in a room with a major road just outside. (I have to take my hearing aids out when using headphones.).
I actually remove hearing aids when playing as I will alter tone with them in. After playing for many years with hearing gradually fading one does sort of know how things should sound. Granted if my hearing changed overnight things would be different. I believe this was Ricks point. People do get used to hearing their own way.
My thoughts Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/05/2001:17 AM.
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Interesting....but meaningless from a research design perspective. It’s not via a statistical perspective possible to make any, even the slightest, general conclusions.
Unless, of course, in my advanced age, I’ve forgotten what I learned 50 years ago in grad school
FYI - JonD has acknowledges that he has a hearing problem. He does not wear hearing aids. When we work together on a song and the song is saved as a wav he claims he can not hear some higher frequencies, i.e some flutes, bells, etc. BUT when I compress them into a MP3 he claims he now can hear them. I have no reason to doubt him but I can't understand how this can happen. Any ideas?
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I'm always amused at the effort we go to recording 96kHz x 24 bit etc., etc, then distribute an MP3. The average listener couldn't tell the difference between the 2
I’ll have to watch the video. Rick is my favorite person I follow on YouTube for his “What Makes This Song Great?!?” Series. I would like to know how he gets all the isolated tracks for those.
From your descriptions, it sounds like a proper Design of Experiments was not conducted. I have some background in that and specifically as it pertains to playing sounds to groups of evaluators in ways that remove order of presentation bias and what not. If you visit my LinkedIn page, I have a link there to a paper that I co-authored On this topic with some fine gentlemen from Ford. It was a moment of rare cooperation between my employer at the time, General Motors, Ford and the supplier of binaural recording equipment that almost all of the automotive industry uses, Head Acoustics.
As has been pointed out, we perceive and hear with more than our ears. Whether all stimuli that would influence perception , even including lighting and room temperature, were controlled for each playback is likely not the case.
Which codec that was used to compress the audio also matters.
Years ago in the Cakewalk forums we had someone post a listening test.... mp3 vs waves
The results were interesting to say the least. Without good speakers, if you have 320kbs mp3 files, it's really hard to tell a difference. Once you get into the lower res mp3 files...128kbs, it becomes easier to pick the mp3.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I have a very good PA system. I run the backing tracks in my duo through it.
I did experiments with blind tests using 3 musicians who not only have good hearing but are critical listeners.
I set them with their backs to me and played WAV and various mp3 bit rates on a few songs that I chose because of the spread between lows and high frequencies
At 128kbps everyone could tell the difference.
At 192 there was only a slight difference in high frequencies
At 320 no one could tell the difference.
How much do you need? OMHO I think that would depend on your system and audience.
I gig in many places, each with a share of ambient noise and not the best acoustics, so 192 or better is fine.
If you don't have a stellar sound system, the difference above 192 wouldn't probably be audible because your system couldn't reproduce the full audio bandwidth.
If you have a great sound system and a nice room you probably want to go 320.
If you are simply a purist, stick with the wav files.
There is more than one right way to listen to music.
Somehehow, despite a ligfetime playing in bands, I can still hear the difference between a high-rate MP3 and a WAV file, but only on my own system with no other competing noise.
One problem with some of the tests people have tried in the past is that they are conducted over the Internet, using compressed files compared to compressed files. It's bogus from the start.
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I find it somewhat amusing that when music went from vinyl and/or tape to CD (.wav) files the music became too clean and lost warmth. So how do we add warmth? We introduce some distortion. But then we could put too much in the high end. Now we introduce EQ or Multiband Compression to overcome high end. Now we introduce something that Izotope call “low end focus” to bring out the low end or add more punch.
Then if we use signal compression say MP3 we mostly cut out some of the high end. In fact what is cut is difficult for most folk 30 years and over to hear. Yes it is easy enough to hear when isolated and amplified but when mixed in how easy is it? IMHO there is a fair bit of placebo effect in most of it.
The term “there is a subtle difference when this effect is applied” also gets me. It usually translates to “you might not hear or see the difference but let me assure you the difference is huge”.
Enough on that. I think we all have opinions but in reality how much difference does it make to the average listener?
My thoughts Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/09/2005:02 PM.
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The vast majority of music consumers have clearly made the choice of convenience over signal purity, whether it is through using lossy data compression like mp3, or lossy compressed music streaming services.
I am in this camp. I currently have 1189 albums in my ripped CD music library. I have kept about 500 of those CDs. The vast majority of the rest were donated to charity. I acquired the bulk of those through people unloading their unwanted CDs on me or thrift shop purchased of between $0.49-$2.50.
The lions share of my ripped collection fits on a 128 GB usb stick that I can play from any computer, or on a 128 GB micro SD card that’s in my Fiio digital music player.
I would hope anyone debating whether to get the audiophile or ‘regular’ BIAB would take a minute to read the short article I wrote about this. It’s the 2nd sticky post (post at the top) of the Tips and Tricks Forum. There were many good comments added on.
I find it somewhat amusing that when music went from vinyl and/or tape to CD (.wav) files the music became too clean and lost warmth. So how do we add warmth? We introduce some distortion. But then we could put too much in the high end. Now we introduce EQ or Multiband Compression to overcome high end. Now we introduce something that Izotope call “low end focus” to bring out the low end or add more punch.
Then if we use signal compression say MP3 we mostly cut out some of the high end. In fact what is cut is difficult for most folk 30 years and over to hear. Yes it is easy enough to hear when isolated and amplified but when mixed in how easy is it? IMHO there is a fair bit of placebo effect in most of it.
The term “there is a subtle difference when this effect is applied” also gets me. It usually translates to “you might not hear or see the difference but let me assure you the difference is huge”.
Enough on that. I think we all have opinions but in reality how much difference does it make to the average listener?
My thoughts Tony
Harsh but fair.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/10/2004:19 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I typed first and listening was going to be my second step but I got sidetracked with Youtube. Oh well... I'll just chalk it up to the increasing frailness of my brain. I've modified my previous post so that I don't end up bamboozling people.
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