Dozens of them over the years. “BiaB does not do “modern music,” or the music you see on the top of today’s charts.” “BiaB’s userbase is aging out.” “Is BiaB relevant today?,” etc, etc,
As I see things, from a market niche perspective, here’s the good news: Band in a Box currently has basically zero competitors.
The bad news? The amount of people who actually care about that is decreasing at alarming rates with each passing year. Furthermore, over the past few years a number of programs and apps have been released that can create backing tracks from chords in a multitude of styles, that cost a fraction of what BiaB’s most basic package will set you back. There are also a number of VSTs on the market that use real recorded phrases from actual instruments that will play along to chord progressions. Granted, they do not come close to the quality and variety you can get from RTs, but they also have a robust marketing presence, and are getting better by the year.
In my own experience, as a person who is either active on, or lurk, dozens of music practice, production, software, and gear-related websites and forums, I find it extremely rare to find anything on BaiB. If you want to learn more about Reaper, about Native Instrument products, about Garageband, or any other number of products/programs out there, you will likely easily find scores of videos, blogs, and whatnot to learn from. However, with BiaB you basically have PG Music’s tutorials, Joanne Cooper’s content, and a then a number of scattered videos and blog pages spanning over that past few decades.
Where am I going with this? Well, basically I’m an attorney who has an incredible passion for music, and who would ideally like to make music my full-time job. I’ve been playing guitar since my teens, and picked up bass in my early 20s. I initially purchased BiaB for practicing and learning, but over the years have become more interested in production. Not only have I watched every video produced by PG Music since its inception, and pored over each page of the manual at least a half dozen times, I have also spent hours on end watching YT videos and reading tutorials on MIDI, Reaper, and other aspects of music production.
For a while now I have been toying with the idea of creating a BiaB centered blog with an associated YT channel. There are dozens of topics I would love to make posts and videos about. Some examples:
An entire series of videos on how MIDI works, and how to use MIDI in Band in a Box. (For instance, I generated this little snippet off of a single held piano MIDI track! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJTQSI12gw&feature=youtu.be ) (BTW, I know, this particular audio was not optimized for YT, so it does not sound very full or rich, but you can get the idea of what it sounded like in my DAW. I want to learn how to optimize videos for YT, but more on that in a second).
Regular (monthly or bi-weekly) videos and/or blog posts demonstrating my favorite MIDI and audio VSTs/effects to use in BiaB
Tips and tricks for interesting and creative uses of BiaB for learning guitar and/or bass.
How to produce contemporary music styles with BaiB such as Trap, Trance, Dubstep, Chillout, Trip-Hop, Downtempo, etc,), as well as old school hip-hop in the style of Cypress Hill, Wu Tang Klan A Tribe Called Quest…
General mixing and song arrangement tips, and more.
So much more!
So what’s this whole “affiliate program link” thing about?
Briefly, an affiliate program is where a vendor (such as PG Music) creates a special kind of link that affiliates (Youtubers and bloggers) can include in, on, or below their posts and videos. The affiliate gets paid when the person watching their video or reads their blog either clicks a link, buys a product, or takes some other action as specifically set out in the affiliate agreement.
So say I publish a video on Youtube titled “How to Make a Kendrick Lamar Style Beat with Band in a Box” and include a link to BiaB below the video, I could get paid if that person either A) clicks the link to view BiaB, or B) actually buys it (obviously the amount an affiliate gets paid varies greatly based on whether they agree on a click or sale!).
Affiliate marketing is a win-win-win situation. The vendor sells more units, and the affiliate gets a percentage of the sales, or certain amount for a click which the vendor determines represents a advantageous ROI. The third winner is you. You guys get to watch well-produced content without paying a cent. I know all this as a consumer of affiliate videos and purchaser of products. I have spent more money than I care to admit over the years on products I was convinced I wanted not because of any video put out by the vendor, but because I saw how someone else used it before making my purchase decision. And after I purchase the product I continue to watch the videos as they come out. And new videos keep coming out because the affiliate wants to generate more leads (and also because the affiliate loves the product, and enjoys being a "brand ambassador" of sorts).
Note that there are thousands of affiliate programs out there, and this is not a novel concept...the vast majority of Youtubers make little, if nothing, off Youtube advertisements (which is why affiliate programs and Patreon are the way folks that are posting actual informative content, instead of stupid fail or cringe compilation videos, actually get paid).
Now, if I was going to do this full time, and actually publish sleek and well-produced content, I would have to learn video editing inside out, purchase some decent equipment and recording gear, and, you know, spend hours a day recording and editing content that is optimized to reach the widest audience.
I’ve been reading a ton on SEO, marketing analytics and the like, and I think I can increase BiaB’s visibility and overall sales exponentially. But before throwing all my time, energy, effort, and some cash into this, with the idea of it being something I can (eventually) make a living from, I need to know that I could actually make a profit in return for all my time and efforts.
As someone who these days mostly listens to Trap, Dubstep, Downtempo, and other contemporary music styles, (despite my username which is actually a reference to my all-time favorite band, Steely Dan), I actually think that BiaB can be an incredible tool in the arsenal of every music producer, student, hobbyist, and tinkerer.
In fact, I’ve been noticing a lot more “organic/real” instrumentation in the music coming out lately. Also, the VST plugin (which, incidentally, I HATED in its original 2019 iteration), is an absolute triumph and potential game changer for reasons I could get into at length… In fact, if BaiB’s plugin were integrated more smoothly with Pipeline’s,...I don’t even have words to express the possibilities, but that’s another story.
So to conclude; Band-in-a-Box, warts and all, is an incredible product, and I want to prove to the world that BiaB is not just for old people to make old music, but that it’s also a tool for the younger generation(s) to learn, to use in new ways, and even invent new forms of music for all to enjoy and appreciate!
So, Mr. Gannon, (if you’re reading this), whaddya say?!
P.S. In case y'all are wondering why I’m splashing this wall of text here in the forums, it’s because I searched Google to determine whether BiaB had established an affiliate marketing program, and found a post in the forums where Mr. Gannon advised someone who had a similar inquiry to contact Callie in marketing. I sent an email to Callie on the matter 3 weeks ago and have not heard back from her, so I figured I’ll post it here, and maybe I’d have better luck).
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If I may make a suggestion to help in the area where "Now, if I was going to do this full time, and actually publish sleek and well-produced content, I would have to learn video editing inside out, purchase some decent equipment and recording gear, and, you know, spend hours a day recording and editing content that is optimized to reach the widest audience."
Why not partner with someone that is already an expert video tutorial maker. Someone that has top equipment, gear, setup and spends hours each day making and broadcasting hi-quality YouTube videos.
You provide and coach and support a person (personality) where you provide the BIAB/RB product knowledge, how-to's, Tips and Tricks, and even full productions.
Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner was recently hired by Presonus to begin doing exactly what you're suggesting. They're creating a Presonus channel for him to focus and make tutorial videos on how he uses Studio One software. Joe has his own channel and already uses all Presonus gear in his home studio and he tutors viewers and subscribers how to make quality home recordings. He's had his YouTube channel since 2009 and makes his living as a full time YouTube producer. As an employee, he will gain the access and materials from Presonus engineers and marketers to place his channel above any other competition.
You and PGMusic can do the same. There's another Presonus video tutor that lost his limited support from Presonus (looking back, likely due the Presonus decision to create their own channel) who is actively seeking another platform to provide support to his channel so he can stay on the air.
He has an established subscription base He's an excellent MC/Tutor/teacher He has a top quality, top notch equipped home studio He's a musician/songwriter/producer He's a high quality videographer set up to precisely record and stream BIAB screens.
The only thing he's not, is a BIAB program expert. Here, by your own admission, you have the BIAB expertise but don't yet have the Video knowledge and equipment. You're looking at quite a learning curve.
Together, you, this videographer and PGMusic could turn out a grade A, top notch production from day one...
If I may make a suggestion to help in the area where "Now, if I was going to do this full time, and actually publish sleek and well-produced content, I would have to learn video editing inside out, purchase some decent equipment and recording gear, and, you know, spend hours a day recording and editing content that is optimized to reach the widest audience."
Why not partner with someone that is already an expert video tutorial maker. Someone that has top equipment, gear, setup and spends hours each day making and broadcasting hi-quality YouTube videos.
You provide and coach and support a person (personality) where you provide the BIAB/RB product knowledge, how-to's, Tips and Tricks, and even full productions.
Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner was recently hired by Presonus to begin doing exactly what you're suggesting. They're creating a Presonus channel for him to focus and make tutorial videos on how he uses Studio One software. Joe has his own channel and already uses all Presonus gear in his home studio and he tutors viewers and subscribers how to make quality home recordings. He's had his YouTube channel since 2009 and makes his living as a full time YouTube producer. As an employee, he will gain the access and materials from Presonus engineers and marketers to place his channel above any other competition.
You and PGMusic can do the same. There's another Presonus video tutor that lost his limited support from Presonus (looking back, likely due the Presonus decision to create their own channel) who is actively seeking another platform to provide support to his channel so he can stay on the air.
He has an established subscription base He's an excellent MC/Tutor/teacher He has a top quality, top notch equipped home studio He's a musician/songwriter/producer He's a high quality videographer set up to precisely record and stream BIAB screens.
The only thing he's not, is a BIAB program expert. Here, by your own admission, you have the BIAB expertise but don't yet have the Video knowledge and equipment. You're looking at quite a learning curve.
Together, you, this videographer and PGMusic could turn out a grade A, top notch production from day one...
Hey Charlie,
Thank you so much for the comprehensive response and advice!
To clarify; in terms of equipment and video quality, I'm thinking more or a good webcam, mic, and other gear as used by streamers, and not the kind of stuff professional advertising companies would use.
Similarly, the video editing stuff I would need to learn is how to make smooth cutaways, inserting text, zooming in on portions of my screen, etc,. Also, coordinating with someone else to get all this done would significantly complicate a brisk and consistent content output schedule.
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I like your ideas. However to sell them you need a demo which sells you! We know your write well, have a rugged handsome look and have a great looking partner, but how do you present in a video blog? Of course best to have all the video gear but you got to start somewhere so set up a camera and sell Peter on the concept. I wish you lots of luck.
I like your ideas. However to sell them you need a demo which sells you! We know your write well, have a rugged handsome look and have a great looking partner, but how do you present in a video blog? Of course best to have all the video gear but you got to start somewhere so set up a camera and sell Peter on the concept. I wish you lots of luck.
Haha! Thanks for the compliments
Here are some "non-professional" videos I've posted in the past, and that were quite well received when I linked them here in the forums :-)
So are the rest of us! The idea that BiaB can grow and further develop depends on revenue and market growth. The plugin is one avenue, but it takes more sideways marketing to accomplish that. Reaching new markets, and different users is a key path. Great ideas.
Oh one thing don’t forget us old timers and our music completely we would enjoy good content also and there are still many of us out there with spendable dollars and time to kill.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
So are the rest of us! The idea that BiaB can grow and further develop depends on revenue and market growth. The plugin is one avenue, but it takes more sideways marketing to accomplish that. Reaching new markets, and different users is a key path. Great ideas.
Oh one thing don’t forget us old timers and our music completely we would enjoy good content also and there are still many of us out there with spendable dollars and time to kill.
Hey now, you guys are family!!
I'm planning on making a whole series on MIDI (specifically in a "contemporary EDM style-context-as opposed to making them sound like real instruments) where I start from the very basics (oscillators and the different types of waveforms, ADSR envelopes, LFOs, filters, arpeggiators, etc.) all of which the "younger folk" know inside out.
In fact, I've been wanting to a MIDI series for the forums here for some time, because I see a lotta folks posting here about it.
From what I've ascertained Mario is MIDI's biggest champion in these here forums (or at least the most vocal about it), and based on his music and discussions, he uses MIDI to get real instrument sounds.
The stuff I want to demonstrate/post videos on sounds nothing like real instruments!
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I'm planning on making a whole series on MIDI (specifically in a "contemporary EDM style-context-as opposed to making them sound like real instruments) where I start from the very basics (oscillators and the different types of waveforms, ADSR envelopes, LFOs, filters, arpeggiators, etc.) all of which the "younger folk" know inside out.
Thanx for calling me and a few others here younger folk
Originally Posted By: DeaconBlues09
In fact, I've been wanting to a MIDI series for the forums here for some time, because I see a lotta folks posting here about it.
From what I've ascertained Mario is MIDI's biggest champion in these here forums (or at least the most vocal about it), and based on his music and discussions, he uses MIDI to get real instrument sounds.
The stuff I want to demonstrate/post videos on sounds nothing like real instruments!
Yes, doing a MIDI series is an excellent idea. Please include a transition series on from GM to Soft/hard synths and how to use them in BiaB/RB; there are a lot of questions about that on these forums. I can not answer those questions as I do all of my work in my DAW.
Thanx for the "Mario is MIDI's biggest champion" comment.
I have a lot of nonreal sounding soft synths. Maybe I should record something to post.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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I appreciate that immensely. But I use Cakewalk, and my primary goal is transferring jazz chords with all upper extensions to dedicated music notation software.
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I'm similar to you Deacon in that I too participate in or lurk on tons of different music related forums and I'm constantly watching various YT vids on similar subjects. I've posted here about that a lot but not from the POV of what you just posted. I think it's a great, perfect idea!
You are absolutely correct in that absolutely nobody even mentions Biab on all those blogs, vids and forums much less actually talks about it. Not even a little bit, it's like the Sahara desert out there as far as PGM is concerned. I remember years ago someone here put up a Wikipedia article about Biab and they took it down because there were no non PGM related articles anywhere to corroborate it. I was shocked about that at the time.
PGM really needs someone to push them into all the various social media platforms with like you say a total focus on modern musical styles. Build links to young people who are social media "influencers", all that kind of thing. It won't be easy though because of the incredible influence of Ableton Live. You want to get blown away? Do YT searches on that program. You can spend the rest of your life doing nothing but checking out Ableton on YT.
I think a great place to start with a new series on this is pointing out how Biab can work with Ableton, what can be done with the plugin because Ableton has already been tested with the plugin. It would have to show that Biab can do things inside Ableton that cannot already be done using standard Ableton techniques meaning that person needs to be an Ableton expert as well as an Biab expert. Considering how completely different both programs are and the demographics of both programs, I don't know if that person exists yet. But to me Ableton users needs to be the primary target for something like this because literally millions of young "bedroom producers" use Ableton for exactly the styles you mentioned.
When you watch vids of other DAW's over the last few years many of the enhancements they've come up with are pointed directly at Ableton users, things like working with loops and clips, having an arrangement pane where you can move clips around, chord tracks, stuff like that. We tend to think they're adding Biab functions, no they're trying to compete with Ableton. It's Ableton that's the king of hill with those styles.
Here's a short official vid showing what's new in Ableton Live 10. Note the overall production look of this, who the people are doing the short demos and the sounds they're creating. I will admit that it's hard for me to see some kind of bridge between Biab and this but if it's there then it needs to be explained and exploited.
I've always wanted to be current in the music scene even if I don't like what I hear so I forced myself to watch many hours of Ableton vids a few years ago. It was torture for me, literally because to my ears this stuff is incomprehensible crap but I kept an open mind and pressed on. I do have a basic understanding of how this stuff works and how it's created but I'm sure not the guy to try to explain it to anyone.
You seem to have both feet in both worlds Deacon and I agree it's worth it to try to insert Biab into this world of trap, dubstep, EDM and all that so good luck to you.
My page long post was deleted twice in this thread. In essence, I what I said was that it maybe just SLIGHTLY early for prime time hyping? Maybe it is better to wait and fix a "few" things. So when you DO try amplify "marketing" by creating content / blogging etc. it would be met with less resistance from average new user who you are trying to capture and who is less than "open" to idea of imperfections. People's opinions are the key of modern "marketing" and ideally you want to keep the negative number below 5%. What I am afraid is that this might create adverse effect before some issues are resolved.
P.S. Dear moderator(s) my previous and current post relates directly to this topic and your police actions are baseless. I am afraid, I will have to abandon my participation in this forum all together if this continues from your side.
MusicStudent, I think you do not see this clear. Before 2019 I had a feeling that BIAB is on decline as a software. After PG made a decision to go 64bit and introduced VST, a strong feeling of hope was born. May veteran users correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that was one of the biggest software pushes in years.
Now, it is relatively small stuff left to do, to make the software more appealing to "average" consumer compared to all the work that was done recently. Sort of: "Cleanup construction debris before inviting future home owners". They might stay in this house for years.
When you "sell the sizzle", you might burn a customer's tongue... And that "customer" will scream loudly. And you know those customers, they are always right. I think it is in everyone interest (especially the seller) for a customer to walk away with a product and be happy with it the next morning... and maybe tell a buddy or two about it To my understanding that is the art of "good" salesman. Not to make a quick coin.
P.S. My understanding PG Software was around for 30 years, not 20 as you mentioned.
I had a quick glance at it. Many improvements for interconnectivity and accuracy, but I couldn't find a word about extending the file format with chord or other notation related messages.
Dan (music student), Misha has a point. The release for 2019 was a biggie, and what many here wanted 64 bit, and the plugin brought a lot of enthusiasm for DAW users. However there are still nagging issues that never got addressed. The windows release last year pushed deep into the development cycle for Mac. Causing Mac release to delay till it pushed into Win 2020. So here we sit with plugin version 2 not fully completed, BiaB just now slowly becoming stable, RB still loaded with small issues. And we begin to push into the Mac cycle again. A never ending circle of incompleteness.
Slowing down to complete the 2019/2020 releases, maybe a fresh face with some GUI clean up would really help. The problem is PGM relies on the upgrade cycles for cash flow revenue to survive. How do we the end user help to end this so start loop? Well my 2 cents worth is this. Don’t ask for too much this year except to complete what is started.
1. Bring the plugin to a solid and useable version with the punch list of bugs knocked out. 2. Slow down the constant feature upgrades in BiaB, and fix a few long asked for bugs/limitations. 3. Give some more RTs, and especially RDs with Real charts. 4. Fix a few nagging issue with RB so it can be more attractive to DAW users.
Misha, while I totally agree that BiaB needs a fresh facial, maybe that could be the next big release 2022 and allow 2020 into 2021 to get this stuff really done once.
What then does that require from use you ask? That we upgrade this year even if the program doesn’t have “50” new features. Especially if it gets many issues addressed and completed.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 01/25/2002:46 AM.
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OK, I admit my hearing is very poor. This is been a problem for me for quite some time. But my vision is ... well, still pretty good. So I do clearly see your point. I am just trying to stay positive and take the high ground. Less deletions of posts by moderators that way. You don't survive on this forum for over 20 years without some balanced perspective on this product.
And regarding the sizzle, Perhaps you are not familiar with the origins of the phrase.
Ask yourself what can BIAB do? Then what other package can do it? When I ask myself those questions each year I pull out my credit card and update. I can't make the music I make without BIAB.
Dan, I heard the phrase before Clicked your Mr.Wheeler link and let it roll in the background while I worked. Nothing like a good Saturday morning sales pitch preaching. I liked the question he asked the audience: "have you ever made a friend in a hurry?" ----
If this thread relates only to marketing existing product "as is", I can just shut up (some folks sure would be happy with that ) If it is a little more than that... a Decon's example of EDM content.... I am a more than certain, those kids who deal primarily with EDM music will express their concerns once / if they buy the package and most likely it would be outside this forum, where users are almost like a family.
For the most part I am with Rob H. on the features vs stability. I strongly believe that a better polished product will "sell" better. My interest in this... I do want BIAB alive and well 5-10-15 years from now. It is very doable.
Deacon, forgive me for intruding, your idea is good!! I just think with just a little muscle power it has much better chance of success.
Rusty, I agree with your points however I think the point Dan is making is the same one I've said before too. Enough is enough talking about this. Like I wrote in another thread Peter is well aware of all these concerns, witness the fact he just replied here! He knows, it's his company, his vision, his decision as to how all this proceeds going forward so let it go and move on. I would say you're one of the expert users of Biab so jump on some of the nooby posts and help with their problems getting started. With no editorializing about how the program should be improved, haha.
As to DeaconBlues reason for starting this thread, yes get this going now with what we have. I like the fact that Peter said Biab has already captured some Ableton customers with the plugin. That's great, build on that.
What I like is that this is good dialog. Peter Gannon does care about his customer base and I hope we all have the companies, and Mr. Gannon’s best interest at heart. Creating a product like this is a monumental task, and therefore a labor of love. I wanted to say these are critical times, but I think the word important is a better fit. There have been some huge things done here. Hopefully there are many good things to come.
Bob you are so right about one thing here, there are so many things to do helping others to wrap their minds around the program rather than take every opportunity to make a point. There is infinitely more that works great here than what doesn’t. While we want to see some cleaning and tightening work done, BiaB does work great just as it is.
While there are several things that are not completed yet in the plugin, much does work and work well.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 01/25/2012:37 PM.
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Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
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