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#572374 - 12/24/19 04:20 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: jazzmammal]
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Teunis Offline
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ARA is a way for say a VST to speak to a DAW. ARA is supported by quite a number of DAWs these days.

In the past for example to use Melodyne on a track one would need to play the track and capture the audio in Melodyne. With ARA one can simply add Melodyne as a VST and open up the track for editing. You hear the track through Melodyne.

See https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/celemony-explains-ara-new-vst-au-rtas-plug-in-extension-506999

This has a fairly good explanation of ARA. Once again a tool for a particular type of use. In this case an interface standard between the VST and the DAW as I understand it.

Tony
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#572378 - 12/24/19 04:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Rustyspoon# Offline
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I am totally confused and curious.
I was poking at Melodyne some time ago. I ended up of not using it. As I understand it is mostly for shifting correcting pitch timing and few other things of this nature.

If my thinking is correct, why do we need it for BIAB? Would it be possible to use ARA in a DAW after the track export (through Plugin or by importing WAVs)?

Can not make the connection...how would it benefit BIAB?
Can somebody please explain in simple terms. Thank you.

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#572383 - 12/24/19 05:20 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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It's not in Biab itself, it's the plugin. Read what the quote from Wikipedia says about tempo and timing. ARA allows that info to come over to the DAW immediately not tick by tick as the song is playing as is the case in a standard plugin. That means the whole tempo map question is solved among other things. IF ARA can be made to work in the Biab plugin and IF it doesn't cost too much for licensing or whatever is required to use it.

This is yet another thing that is either a big shrug or vital depending on the user. I still think the vast majority of users are creating standard 4/4 or 3/4 songs at a constant tempo so it's a big shrug for them. For others with varying tempos and even different time sigs in the same song this could be a big deal because my understanding is with ARA in a compatible plugin and DAW that gets mapped up front.

Bob
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#572385 - 12/24/19 05:27 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: jazzmammal]
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Pipeline Offline
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Reaper has ARA.

Maybe rather than trying to implement so many things to Biab and drastically changing it would it be easier to bring Biab to the the already implemented, that is the whole idea of the Biab Plugin,
sure it started very basic but the way things are going with the Plugin now and once they get the play from RAM implemented that will be a game changer for it.
I wonder if Adar has a twin brother that is also a programmer ????
that would help move things along as I think he's at it 24/7 now.
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#572389 - 12/24/19 06:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Rustyspoon# Offline
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Sorry, now I am even more confused.
Wiki says Cakewalk supports ARA since version Version 2019.05

So, the VST Plugin does not have to have the ARA protocol coded "in it" as long as DAW has it
to share as wiki mentions: "key information, such as audio data, tempo, pitch, and rhythm, for an entire song, rather than just at the moment of playback."?

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#572392 - 12/24/19 06:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Teunis Offline
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If my understanding is correct it is a way of standardising the way a DAW speaks to certain VSTs to make the interconnection between processes smoother. I’m too old to get too far into it. For me if a process works then good enough. If something becomes difficult either find a way around it or forget about it.
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#572393 - 12/24/19 06:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
I am totally confused and curious.
I was poking at Melodyne some time ago. I ended up of not using it. As I understand it is mostly for shifting correcting pitch timing and few other things of this nature.

If my thinking is correct, why do we need it for BIAB? Would it be possible to use ARA in a DAW after the track export (through Plugin or by importing WAVs)?

Can not make the connection...how would it benefit BIAB?
Can somebody please explain in simple terms. Thank you.


Melodyne is basically a pitch changing program. But it can also lengthen or shorten notes. It is used mostly for vocal tracks but it can be used in any audio track. The more basic versions of Melodyne work with monophonic instruments while the more expensive versions work with polyphonic instruments.

How can it benefit BiaB? If you have say a sax rhythm you like but not the notes. You can change the notes in Melodyne. And/or you can change the length of the notes. You can also take an audio track and convert it to a MIDI track, note that you may lose some of the nuances but they can be added via CCs. If you have a polyphonic audio you can either change the notes and/or the inversion/spacing of the notes. Melodyne can do more but these are the basic functions.

I have done the above with Melodyne in my DAW but I have never used it in BiaB. Maybe others have, don't know.
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#572394 - 12/24/19 07:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: MarioD]
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Brian Hughes Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: Sergino
I have read the first 3 pages of answers to this post, so I don't know if anybody else alredy said this: the future of Biab is some sort of implementation-integration with ARA. Studio One was the first using it with Melodyne. All the non-professional or at least less exigent can use RealBand just as it is now. But I hope PG-Music won't lose time updating it as it would be useless for everybody. Developing an ARA compatible BIAB would be the future as a DAW like Studio One would become RealBand on steroyds.


Are you sure about Studio One was the first using it with Melodyne? I was using Melodyne vai ARA in Sonar before I even knew Studio One existed.


Mario I am positive Presonus and Celemony developed it. It was a joint project.
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#572397 - 12/24/19 07:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Brian Hughes]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Brian Hughes
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: Sergino
I have read the first 3 pages of answers to this post, so I don't know if anybody else alredy said this: the future of Biab is some sort of implementation-integration with ARA. Studio One was the first using it with Melodyne. All the non-professional or at least less exigent can use RealBand just as it is now. But I hope PG-Music won't lose time updating it as it would be useless for everybody. Developing an ARA compatible BIAB would be the future as a DAW like Studio One would become RealBand on steroyds.


Are you sure about Studio One was the first using it with Melodyne? I was using Melodyne vai ARA in Sonar before I even knew Studio One existed.


Mario I am positive Presonus and Celemony developed it. It was a joint project.


OK, thanx for clearing that up for me.
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#572398 - 12/24/19 07:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Rustyspoon# Offline
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Mario, thanks.
I do get the part how ARA (Melodyne) can be useful on instrumental tracks, I do not get the part how and why it has to be a part of BIAB plugin? In Daw you can simply use Melodyne VST (or similar) on the track you want to edit.

Probably a silly question, just trying to understand.

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#572399 - 12/24/19 07:27 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Brian Hughes Offline
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As of right now ARA support can be found in most of the major DAWS. Melodyne and Vocal Align are two of the most popular programs that take advantage of the protocol.

You might ask what is the advantage of this? Well what it allows these programs to do is instead of bouncing a track into these programs and then edit it and bounce it all back which typically used to be done in real time took quite a bit of time. Also they were not synced together.
Now you can edit on the fly and no more bouncing the track back and forth like before and everything is in sync. So how would the BIAB VST benefit from this? I would suppose it might be able to regenerate a multi riff directly to the tracks in a DAW. There can be a lot of things possible I suppose.
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#572400 - 12/24/19 07:40 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Rob Helms Offline
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RSpoon, the reason that Melodyne works like it does in a DAW is because of ARA. Before ARA, Melodyne was not truly integrated. You had to open the wave file in Melodyne. Now you can click on a audio track and edit seemlessly.

I would imagine ARA would make the flow of audio data, like tempo, key, etc smoothly passed between host DAW, and the plugin. Some BiaB tracks i. e. RTs with all the different things involved.

Ya never know what will be added to the plugin in the future.
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#572402 - 12/24/19 08:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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jazzmammal Offline
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Rustyspoon, you're combining Melodyne and ARA. They are separate. Melodyne is a plugin while ARA is a protocol that can work with many different plugins. The only connection is the ARA protocol was developed jointly by PreSonus and Celemony (Melodyne) so Melodyne would work much better in Studio One. I bolded that sentence in my Wikipedia quote earlier.

Before you get too excited, the full Melodyne program costs $500 but there may be a sale on since it's Christmas. The most obvious use of Melodyne is vocal correction, it's used all the time for that in studios the world over. Another great use is say you have an otherwise killer piano or guitar track but one chord is a major and you need it to be minor. You can use Melodyne to literally move that note down a half step. The integration with Studio Ones Chord Track is it can make that change for you very similar to how Biab does it. You change the chord in a little box and when you hit Play prestochango, that major chord is now a minor. I'm pretty sure that's due to ARA. You don't need to manually go into the Melodyne plugin itself and make the change S1 does it automatically with Melodyne running in the background. That is definitely moving into Biab territory but S1 doesn't have anything like styles. Yet.

Right now we're talking about the Biab plugin and obviously ARA needs to be programmed into it in order to work, otherwise there's no discussion. ARA works in many DAW's already so if that was not needed we wouldn't be talking about it. In order to work it has to be programmed into both the DAW and the plugin.

Bob
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#572404 - 12/24/19 08:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: jazzmammal]
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Teunis Offline
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Once again I point you to https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/celemony-explains-ara-new-vst-au-rtas-plug-in-extension-506999

This will explain ARA, it’s uses and beginnings.

It really seems all it is simply an interface to allow a DAW to more natively speak to some VSTs. As was said, prior to ARA if you wanted to use Melodyne the track would have to be recorded or copied into Melodyne. With ARA Melodyne simply opens up the track.

Look at the video mentioned in the link above. The designers of ARA understand it better than most.

Tony


Edited by Teunis (12/24/19 08:08 PM)
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#572406 - 12/24/19 08:18 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Rustyspoon# Offline
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Thank you everyone for explanations!
Bob, Ok, now more clear.
Tony, thank you, watched the link.
What got me tripped is that in my understanding, when BIAB is "generating" the track the outcome is not predictable, until it is fully generated. So how can ARA "see" something that is not yet born? Ok... that is technicality smile
So basic understanding is that in theory ARA will help to keep tracks in sync with project -->export them directly to DAW tracks from VST.

I like Mario's real world approach of using melodyne on instrumentals:

"How can it benefit BiaB? If you have say a sax rhythm you like but not the notes. You can change the notes in Melodyne. And/or you can change the length of the notes."

As of now, if a note or chord sticks out from BIAB generated WAVs, in most cases I would just mute them.

P.S. I downloaded a trial of melodyne, will play with it later in the week. I know Sweetwater is running a 1/2 sale on Melodyne packages. Essential is $50.
But as I understand, the Essential version would not do many "essential" things. It has to be Assistant version or higher. Not sure if I need it now, but regardless will have a full free month to play with it smile

Again,
Thank you for your time!

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#572410 - 12/24/19 10:34 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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jazzmammal Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
What got me tripped is that in my understanding, when BIAB is "generating" the track the outcome is not predictable, until it is fully generated. So how can ARA "see" something that is not yet born?


Good question and I don't have an exact answer but parts of the Biab song is known before generation like tempo, time sig or multiple time sigs, chords, the overall song layout, number of total bars, mixer settings and probably more. What is not known is the exact notes until it is generated so yes, Melodyne correction would have to wait.

I suspect the things that are known and can be read from the Biab plugin immediately is enough to allow ARA to set the whole song up meaning it's already synced up with a tempo map, key sigs and the other stuff before the song is generated. Pipeline wrote quite a bit about that in his posts in other threads and I can't remember it all but I think I'm close. He will probably chime in to clarify it.

The fundamental question remains, can the plugin be made to work with ARA? Since it is a working VST I would think it should but what do I know?

Bob
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#572415 - 12/25/19 12:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: jazzmammal]
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Pipeline Offline
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It takes a while to analyze just 32 bars, longer than it would take to generate, and you need the VST3 version.
In the current version of Biab the VST is not syncing unless you hit the play button and play from the very start (include count-off) if you start on any other bar the VST will play from the very start.




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#572422 - 12/25/19 06:01 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Below is a video that explain Melodyne in studio 2 , but the same is true in studio one 4, Reaper etc. use your imagination regarding the tracks from the plugin. Imagine what you could do with the mulitiRiffs. Say a phrase ends a little short or doesn’t tie together smoothly. Edit it in Melodyne.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3J8SFhoe10
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#572448 - 12/25/19 02:15 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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Sergino Offline
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since my post pointing on ARA, I'm reading a lot of other posts regarding mainly Melodyne. I didn't want to focus on ARA as a link between BIAB and Melodyne, but as a link between BIAB and any DAW supporting ARA.
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#572465 - 12/25/19 07:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Sergino]
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Brian Hughes Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sergino
since my post pointing on ARA, I'm reading a lot of other posts regarding mainly Melodyne. I didn't want to focus on ARA as a link between BIAB and Melodyne, but as a link between BIAB and any DAW supporting ARA.


Exactly that is why I mentioned the Synchro Arts VocALign which uses ARA in Studio One as well. The thing is a DAW that supports ARA allows more time for the plugin to edit in realtime and play the results in sync instantly. This was not possible before ARA with programs such as the two mentioned programs.

With ARA 2, the exchange of information between DAWs and plug-ins is more comprehensive, which makes additional applications possible. The new ARA 2 specification allows the simultaneous editing of multiple tracks, the transfer of chord track information between the DAW and the plug-in, seamless clip borders that make the manual setting of crossfades superfluous, Undo interlocking with the DAW, and more. The features then become available depend upon the specific plug-in and DAW.
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Learn more & listen to demos of Xtra Styles PAK 11.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac Special - Ends Thursday!

It's almost over! Our Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac special ends this Thursday (July 15th)!

Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK, but only if you place your order before 11:59pm PDT Thursday (July 15, 2021)!

Learn more about all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac at: www.pgmusic.com/bbmac.new.htm

The FREE Bonus PAK & 49-PAK are packed with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2021 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks) upgrade it to the 2021 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available. If you have any questions, contact us -we're here to help!

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