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#576445 - 01/16/20 03:37 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6391
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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I read all your remarks with hopefully as open as my mind can get. Unfortunately, I'm trained to literally read and interpret what one writes.

"I want workflow / menus! / features, sorted properly and presented neatly, logically and the last but not the least for menu items to look pretty." The words sorted, presented neatly, logically and pretty all address your wish for a better appearance of the GUI. I give them all a plus 1...

"We need people who will open it it, press couple of intuitive buttons and fall in love with it." I interpret pressing a couple of intuitive buttons to have nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with reducing complexity between the beginning of a project and the final result. That's how I interpreted what you wrote. Nothing to see here, because I agree with your concept here too.

I agreed with Mario in another thread regarding 16 channels for midi.

I'm fine with the Mixer and with all the pop-ups but I'm happy to throw my support with the majority and I think the majority of forum members support continued work and improvements to the GUI.

I'm good with it and I think BIAB can benefit from your recommendations. I always read them and try to grasp your reasoning. There's a wide variance of experience, training, ability and perspectives in the forum community. I learn a lot here. Some of that's from you. Thanks for your contributions.
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#576486 - 01/16/20 06:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 2846
Rustyspoon# Offline
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Ok, Charlie, now I see where we got disconnected smile

Here: "I interpret pressing a couple of intuitive buttons to have nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with reducing complexity between the beginning of a project and the final result. That's how I interpreted what you wrote."

I was actually thinking of an interactive "quick start" guide or interactive assistant. I understand that this might be a big project for PG, and probably will not happen anytime soon. However, the easy solution, what I have seen with some software, when you open it for the first time a splash screen will offer to take it right to the "quick start" video. I understand that there are tons of BIAB videos, and I watched quite a few of them. But none that I have seen are made as a "quick, follow me" start guides. Most are either pushing marketing agenda or deal with specific issues.

So idea of this Q.Start guide is for a person, who buys BIAB for the first time, have a very basic understanding of core things from the start, not getting lost in all the options.

Example of Quick start: Audition/Pick style-->open style-->change realtrack-->change tempo-->change key and so on. Short and sweet segments to get things rolling.

Like giving a bone (with some meat) to a dog....
(I felt like a rat in the maze the first time I opened BIAB smile )

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#576494 - 01/16/20 07:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rustyspoon#]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Ok, Charlie, now I see where we got disconnected smile

Here: "I interpret pressing a couple of intuitive buttons to have nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with reducing complexity between the beginning of a project and the final result. That's how I interpreted what you wrote."

I was actually thinking of an interactive "quick start" guide or interactive assistant. I understand that this might be a big project for PG, and probably will not happen anytime soon. However, the easy solution, what I have seen with some software, when you open it for the first time a splash screen will offer to take it right to the "quick start" video. I understand that there are tons of BIAB videos, and I watched quite a few of them. But none that I have seen are made as a "quick, follow me" start guides. Most are either pushing marketing agenda or deal with specific issues.

So idea of this Q.Start guide is for a person, who buys BIAB for the first time, have a very basic understanding of core things from the start, not getting lost in all the options.

Example of Quick start: Audition/Pick style-->open style-->change realtrack-->change tempo-->change key and so on. Short and sweet segments to get things rolling.

Like giving a bone (with some meat) to a dog....
(I felt like a rat in the maze the first time I opened BIAB smile )




My thoughts were more like how BIAB chose to interface with the TRIO - pre-program it and limit the selection quantity. Either way, pre-program or quick start - The benefit of quick start with midi as the style, instruments, chord chart, key signature and tempo are all in place. BIAB also already has a limited selection of RealStyles that can be selected as direct midi replacement styles. That could be improved and expanded without too much technical changes.
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#578112 - 01/27/20 12:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
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Registered: 01/27/20
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Loc: Germany
I am a Newbie to Band in a Box, but I would like to post some comments. I don't think further add-on programs are the right path. I think a consolidation and more focus on the strenghts of the already given functionality would be the right way forward for BB. In some areas this might also mean giving up some of the stuff that comes along with the current program packages.

Great and not so great:

First of all Band in a Box is a great program to create Mock-ups of song ideas and to get some inspiration what a song could sound like. However I doubt that any musician or producer would use it to do a complete production of a song. There are too many limitations and the sound quality isn't just good enough. Not even the Audiophile version would match current recording standards.

What I like about the program:
- The way how to come from some chords towards some song idea
- The variety of styles to choose from

What I really dislike:
- The mess it creates on the computer in terms of directories and scattered related content
- the way it integrates (or rather does not) with the existing DAW and audio setup (ASIO, 96k/24). It seems that BB creates its own DX Audio stuff in parallel and messes around with the set audio bitrates.
- the weird and completely overloaded UI. Despite all the tutorials and manuals, it often isn't clear to me, what the settings and functions are about or what a symbol means.
- the limitations when it comes to integrate own user ideas with the generated stuff
- the performance. I have a pretty new and fast computer with lots of RAM and SSD space. But even that gets to its limits.
- I never managed to get this sforzando and WT Coyote stuff working reasonably and the track channels don't accept my own VSTi's (SD3, Komplete, UVI Workstation, Korg Synths, ...)

At the end I usually get completely lost. I don't understand anymore what the BB program or the DAW plugin are doing, why certain tracks and sounds work, whilst others don't, why the computer freezes and so on. Sometimes not even the generated results seem to be predictible/reproduceable.

Why not keeping the whole subject lean and simple for the user?

In particular, what I expect from Band in a Box and what it should focus on from my point of view:

I assume that most users have a good DAW and decent collection of good soundineg Vst3 instruments. Also most musicians have their own idea what an instrument should sound like. So they would finally chose their own sound for the instrument anyway. Apart from some exceptions - why should I mess around with RealTracks and RealDrums, after having got some first impression of the song? What is really needed is the possibility to create some decent midi representation of the instrument track/part/variation, for further processing within my DAW. Providing such midi representations of a track or a part, is what BB should focus on and where the most value is created.

If BB could play the instruments with my own VSTi's with the given audio setup right from the start, that would be even better.

Starting from a preset style with a given instrument lineup is a weird approach. Usually I already have some audio and midi tracks for my songs as a start. I just look for some idea, what a further instrument or riff could do for the given song or a particular part. Instead of generating a full new song in BB, an instrument based filter and style picker would create the most benefit. Just filtering a particular instrument from the style finder, look what it would sound like in the song, with the given chords and a selectable style. Afterwards copying it to the DAW as midi file or Real Track as desired. By the way, this would likely also solve most of the performance issues with BB as it wouldn't have to generate an entire song every time.

I would like to create my own band lineup of instruments for a song and see what ideas BB could contribute to the song under those circumstances. I would like to select and mix different styles for different instruments. Maybe the outcome would be strange in most cases, but mabe also some good new ideas would come along with it.

Going beyond that, knowing that this vision may be some challenge for the programmers:

I am originally a guitar player and my capabilities on other instruments are pretty limited. I can convert melodies to midi notes, although those would not always match very well with the proper articulation of a desired target instrument. If I could feed BB with such a raw idea, either as a midi or audio track, letting BB create some proposals for a correctly played substitute that could be imported to my DAW, that would be perfect. All the other stuff BB comes with, just looks like huge overhead to me. It just distracts me from the real job.
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#578149 - 01/27/20 03:56 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
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PeterGannon Offline
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Posts: 14606
Thanks for the message.

> It seems that BB creates its own DX Audio stuff in parallel and messes around with the set audio bitrates.

BB doesn’t mess with any set audio bitrates. Perhaps you could provide some details of what is happening.

> Why not keeping the whole subject lean and simple for the user?
> Starting from a preset style with a given instrument lineup is a weird approach. Usually I already have some audio and midi tracks for my songs as a start. I just look for some idea, what a further instrument or riff could do for the given song or a particular part. Instead of generating a full new song in BB, an instrument based filter and style picker would create the most benefit. Just filtering a particular instrument from the style finder, look what it would sound like in the song, with the given chords and a selectable style.

All that is there already, in both the VST and the program. Please give an example of something that you want to do, but can’t. For example, adding a sax solo to an existing DAW project is a routine thing that lots of people do.

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#578274 - 01/28/20 02:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Roland S]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland S
I doubt that any musician or producer would use it to do a complete production of a song. There are too many limitations and the sound quality isn't just good enough. Not even the Audiophile version would match current recording standards.

While I would agree with some of your comments, especially about the GUI, you are just flat out WRONG with this point! I have personally sold lots of my BIAB tracks through libraries and I do NOT have the audiophile version!

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#578283 - 01/28/20 03:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
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Charlie Fogle Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Roland S
I doubt that any musician or producer would use it to do a complete production of a song. There are too many limitations and the sound quality isn't just good enough. Not even the Audiophile version would match current recording standards.

While I would agree with some of your comments, especially about the GUI, you are just flat out WRONG with this point! I have personally sold lots of my BIAB tracks through libraries and I do NOT have the audiophile version!

I agree with JohnJohnJohn regarding the quality and usefulness of BIAB generated tracks in recording projects. Both for home recordings and commercial studio recordings.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (01/28/20 03:35 PM)
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#578469 - 01/29/20 03:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 08/08/06
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Rob Helms Offline
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I found your post interesting, but I reality I think many of the problems are lack of experience with the program. This program is deep, and as you mentioned can get confusing, even overwhelming. But for simple creation it is very solid. Spend a little more time with it, and ask detailed but focused questions. Include pictures or videos of problems. Be specific and stay with one issue at a time. There are many here that will help you,
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#578520 - 01/29/20 11:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 12/20/16
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Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
RolandS one of the things I really love about BIAB is the ability to “create my own band”. I believe the main limitation to BIAB is my own imagination. I’m sure if I had a better imagination I could get more from BIAB but I am to blame for that no one else.

When I use RealStyles I very seldom use the exact RealTracks as given. I imagine what “my band” needs and add those components. Then once the song is put together I tend to have instruments in the areas I want them. For example, I tend to keep the piano tracks on the right side and picking guitar bits on the left. I rarely have instruments swapping all over the place. If I had a real band I would not have instruments jumping about.

I reckon I generate pretty good backing tracks for myself and find I’m doing songs my way which I really enjoy. I love it when someone comes up and says I didn’t know you could do that song that way.

Anyway enough rant. I believe one is only limited by ones imagination.

Tony
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#578684 - 01/30/20 04:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Roland S]
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Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Roland S, First of all welcome to the PG Music forum and to Band-in-a-Box. I hope you will become a frequent forum contributor in both posts and User Showcase song links.

I don't remember seeing Peter Gannon respond to the first post of many new members. I thought that it is pretty neat that the creator and company owner is interested to read and respond to your first post.
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#579570 - 02/05/20 12:41 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
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Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Thanks to all of your replies
.
I have to apologize for some of my previous statements. There was likely a certain degree of frustration involved, after struggling with the program(s) and tutorials for almost 2 weeks. Meanwhile I could overcome many of my initial problems and discovered that the program provides a lot more functionality than I could even think of.

Nevertheless I still see some room for improvement. Not so much from a functional point of view, but more from a workflow perspective.
As soon as I will find the time, I plan to explain in more detail where I am coming from, where I am heading for and how the program could support me more straight forward and intuitive in this process.

If this could help future newbies to get good results quicker and with less frustration, this should be in everybody's interest.

I will try to make sure that I havn't missed out on some functionality/workflow that already exists. So I definitely have to dig a bit deeper into the subject.
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#579573 - 02/05/20 01:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
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Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply and this great program.

I use a RME Fireface UFX which is set to 96kHz/24Bit, in conjunction with the RME (Windows 10) ASIO driver. I use this setup with my DAW(s) and all other music programs. Whilst RealBand worked fine with this setting as well, Band in a Box always switched to 44.1kHz when it was opened. Since I set the preferences in Band in Box from ASIO to "WAS", everything works fine now.

Regarding my workflow and wishlist, I will prepare a detailed description as soon as possible. I found out, that most of the desired functionality already exists in Band in a Box somehow/somewhere. I just couldn't find it or I just didn't understand what the program was doing in a particular case and why. I think some minor enhancements could make life a lot easier for many users. As said, I will come back to that soon.

Roland
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#579667 - 02/06/20 10:10 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 08/20/11
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Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
Here's a GUI idea:
Pipeline, That is a great looking toolbar mock-up. I especially like the add / remove icon feature.
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Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H1, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
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#579668 - 02/06/20 10:35 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 08/20/11
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Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Roland S,

Check out the +++ Groove3.com +++ tutorial videos for Windows and for Mac. The Windows and Mac video series are also available +++ DIRECT +++ from Groove3.com.

Both video series are a great introduction to Band-in-a-Box and how to use many of its features. The Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) for Mac series is 30 videos with 2 hours and 50 minutes of content. The BiaB for Windows series is 23 videos with 1 hour and 56 minutes. Both series offer video samples and extensive overviews and outlines.

I purchased the BiaB for Windows series so I can download the videos for offline viewing. Groove3 also offers a monthly subscription that allows you to access all their content.
_________________________
Jim Fogle - 2021 BiaB (838) RB (Build 6) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H1, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#579794 - 02/07/20 09:25 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
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Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Thanks for the hint!
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#579800 - 02/07/20 11:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
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Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Sorry for the large post, but I think it is necessary to understand where I am coming from.

I see the future of BB in the plugin and the content delivered. Seamless integration with DAWs is the key for success and content is where the money can be earned. Regarding integration - I work a lot with Melodyne Studio and really appreciate the comfort of the ARA integration with my DAW(s). BB's unique selling point is the creation of additional tracks and variation of styles. Tools like RealBand may be good as a quick start for beginners, but I doubt it will be able to compete with already established DAWs over time - unless somebody wants to invest a huge amount of money and effort in development. I personally wouldn't do so.
From my own experience and the colleagues I know, most users stick with their favourite DAW as long as they can - once they have found a decent one.

----------

My main work scenario, Band in a Box should support:

In my DAW I already have an audio jam track of a band rehearsal, without a constant tempo (but tempo markers). Maybe I already have some vocal melody, a midi drum track and some guitar tracks along with it. I want to create a proper song from that, bringing some structure to it, creating additional parts/bridges and further instruments. Band in a Box shall help me doing so.

Stage 1 - Preparation:

So my first challenge is to make BB aware of what is already there and what I likely want to keep. Intuitively I would try to copy and paste those tracks to the related BB tracks - to the VST plugin or the standalone version - either as midi file or audio file. When using the VST plugin, I would expect that it has automatically taken over the project tempo from the DAW or giving me the chance to import some tempo map.
- So far I have not found a way to import multiple audio files
- The project tempo from the DAW is not taken over by the plugin
- I couldn't import any midi file from my DAW project folder to any of the plugin tracks

Here my first level of frustration starts. From what I understood from the tutorials so far, I have to import one of the audio tracks only. As I can't import a midi chord track, I have to create the chord sheet and tempo changes in BB manually or try to use the ACW function. The tempo detection there is ok. The chord detection in ACW didn't deliver satisfying results to me yet. Means a lot of manual correction work again before storing the result as a raw song idea.

Stage 2 - The creative part

Usually I already have some idea what I would like to try out on the song. As an (extreme) example that may not make much sense: Adding some funky slap bass plus some gypsy style guitar along with a country style fiddle and some synth pad. Usually I already have some midi drum file from Toontrack's SD3 as a rhythmic basis, but that doesn't seem to help me much with BB.

Here I reach my second level of frustration. I can select a style from the style picker and BB will create some nice song for me. But it sounds like a typical song of this style/genre would sound like.
- No mix of styles
- little influence on instruments used with the predefined style (I could change the sound on midi tracks, but the playing style of the original instrument remains)

Don't get me wrong, but the whole reminds me a bit of instant soup (which nevertheless may taste good). But I want to create something different. Probably I could search for the various instruments and styles, switch the styles for the song sequentially and bring single tracks back into my DAW after each generation. But that will become pretty time consuming and requires a lot of patience. I am also a bit afraid that the results won't be as good as they could be, as in such a case BB won't have any idea about the tracks used in my song and their melodic interaction.

Stage 3 - Refining the song, arranging and mixing

Most of this job I will do in my DAW. There I have all the comfortable mixing and editing functions and I am used to the workflow. Although the RealTracks sound good and I might keep some of them, in most cases I will prefer a midi file to work with. I have tons of good sounding VST instruments available and tweaking around with sounds, tempo changes and melodic corrections is a lot easier using midi. So getting midi tracks from BB is cruical for me. In some cases I might be able to convert a RealTrack to midi myself, but if possible, I would like to avoid that additional step.


Summary of my desired improvements:
- when adding the BB plugin in the DAW, the plugin should automatically take over the project tempo from the DAW, as other plugins do.
- I want to be able to import/drop an audio or midi file from the DAW clipboard to any of the predefined mixer tracks in the BB plugin or standalone version.
- A CW function on a midi track should make chord recognition a lot easier for BB, helping me to fill the chord sheet without retyping everything.
- An instrument and style selection per track would be wonderful (if not explicitly choosen, the overall song style can still be used as default)
- Midi files available for all RealTracks, that could be brought back into my DAW.

Maybe some of my desired improvements already exist in BB and I just couldn't find them yet. In this case I have watched the wrong tutorials so far.

-----

After having said all that, I discovered that RealBand might be able to solve some of the subjects above. But after some first enthusiasm, trying out and reading another manual - it seems to to be another dead end. I haven't found any way to sync RealBand with my DAW. I am stuck, getting confused and frustration starts again...

Maybe I should rather practise with my real instruments instead of playing with the computer.
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#579950 - 02/08/20 03:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14606
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14606
> Maybe I should rather practise with my real instruments instead of playing with the computer.

I think you’ve partly run into problems because you’ve started off a first project with something too complicated (a song that isn’t at a constant tempo, that you also need BIAB to figure out the chords to). That just creates extra time and work for you. My advice would be to make your first project with BIAB to be a simple one, meaning one with a single tempo. Then add your own instruments playing to those constant tempo tracks.

There are over 8,000 original songs in the UserShowcase Forum, where people have done similar projects to yours, audio and MIDI, using Band-in-a-Box, their DAW and their added tracks.
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#579971 - 02/08/20 05:17 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Roland S]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6391
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland S

BB's unique selling point is the creation of additional tracks and variation of styles. Tools like RealBand may be good as a quick start for beginners... most users stick with their favorite DAW as long as they can.

You've laid out a good work flow. DAW, BIAB, RB, DAW

My main work scenario, Band in a Box should support:

In my DAW I already have an audio jam track of a band rehearsal, without a constant tempo (but tempo markers). Maybe I already have some vocal melody, a midi drum track and some guitar tracks along with it. I want to create a proper song from that, bringing some structure to it, creating additional parts/bridges and further instruments. Band in a Box shall help me doing so.

Let your audio jam track be your starting point. It can be an audio file or a midi file. It can be a live field recording of your entire band rehearsing a song.

Stage 1 - Preparation:

So my first challenge is to make BB aware of what is already there (either as midi file or audio file). Use BIAB or RealBand to give you the chance to import some tempo map.

Yes. That is how you should begin your project. By importing an existing recorded audio file or midi file, you can use BIAB or RB tools to create a chord chart, tempo map, determine the key signature from your existing song.

- So far I have not found a way to import multiple audio files

You only need a single audio or midi file to work with between BIAB/RB and your DAW.

- The project tempo from the DAW is not taken over by the plugin

This is not necessary. Use BIAB or RB in stand alone mode.

- I couldn't import any midi file from my DAW project folder to any of the plugin tracks

If you're using a midi file and not an audio rendered from a midi file, open that midi file you want to use in BIAB. BIAB will automatically analyze the chords and populate the chord chart. It can be a midi file you play or program or it can be a commercial midi file you've purchased or downloaded from the internet.

Here my first level of frustration starts. From what I understood from the tutorials so far, I have to import one of the audio tracks only.
As I can't import a midi chord track, I have to create the chord sheet and tempo changes in BB manually or try to use the ACW function.
The tempo detection there is ok. The chord detection in ACW didn't deliver satisfying results to me yet. Means a lot of manual correction work again before storing the result as a raw song idea.

See my comments above. Opening a midi file, every thing is automatically decoded or a single audio file can be processed by the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW).

Stage 2 - The creative part

Usually I already have some idea what I would like to try out on the song. Usually I already have some midi drum file from Toontrack's SD3 as a rhythmic basis, but that doesn't seem to help me much with BB.

It will help once you adjust your workflow.

Here I reach my second level of frustration. I can select a style from the style picker and BB will create some nice song for me. But it sounds like a typical song of this style/genre would sound like.

You can either select a style, either RealStyle, Midi or a hybrid style of both. This is not necessary if you want to add individual instruments to play along in the style you have already determined with your initial DAW band rehearsal recording. That will be the groove you are trying to match using individual instruments, either midi, super midi or RealTracks.

- No mix of styles

You can mix, match, modify and change styles all you want.

- little influence on instruments used with the predefined style

Midi instruments and styles are completely editable. RealTracks are recorded audio and are not as editable as midi but there are techniques to maximize and make these tracks unique and distinct to your song.

Don't get me wrong, but the whole reminds me a bit of instant soup (which nevertheless may taste good). But I want to create something different. Probably I could search for the various instruments and styles, switch the styles for the song sequentially and bring single tracks back into my DAW after each generation. But that will become pretty time consuming and requires a lot of patience. I am also a bit afraid that the results won't be as good as they could be, as in such a case BB won't have any idea about the tracks used in my song and their melodic interaction.

You are correct that you have to tell BIAB/RB what you're looking for but consider that to be the same as if you have hired live session musicians to contribute tracks to your project.

Stage 3 - Refining the song, arranging and mixing

Most of this job I will do in my DAW. There I have all the comfortable mixing and editing functions and I am used to the workflow. Although the RealTracks sound good and I might keep some of them, in most cases I will prefer a midi file to work with. I have tons of good sounding VST instruments available and tweaking around with sounds, tempo changes and melodic corrections is a lot easier using midi. So getting midi tracks from BB is crucial for me. In some cases I might be able to convert a RealTrack to midi myself, but if possible, I would like to avoid that additional step.

You can just use midi tracks if that's what you prefer to use. Save a track as midi, open this saved midi file in your DAW and apply your preferred VST instrument from your DAW library.

Summary of my desired improvements:
- when adding the BB plugin in the DAW, the plugin should automatically take over the project tempo from the DAW, as other plugins do.

I recommend you create your BIAB tracks in the full version rather than the VST version in the beginning. The full version has many more features and options and knowing the full version will help you a lot when you do work with the VST and your DAW together.

- I want to be able to import/drop an audio or midi file from the DAW clipboard to any of the predefined mixer tracks in the BB plugin or standalone version.

It's very easy to open an audio file or midi file in BIAB to work with on a BIAB project. If you are having issues, just place your question here on the forum.

- A CW function on a midi track should make chord recognition a lot easier for BB, helping me to fill the chord sheet without retyping everything.

Opening a midi file in BIAB automatically analyzes the chords and populates the chord chart, sets the tempo and key signature. It's a great way to get a jump start on a project.

- An instrument and style selection per track would be wonderful (if not explicitly chosen, the overall song style can still be used as default)

Regarding RealTrack instruments, I recommend you work with individual instruments from the RealTrack picker to find instruments that fit the recorded audio recording of your band rehearsal.
- Midi files available for all RealTracks, that could be brought back into my DAW.

Here you should select RealTracks that contain Real Charts. If a RealTrack has a chart, the RealTrack name is underlined. Real Charts are midi.

After having said all that, I discovered that RealBand might be able to solve some of the subjects above. But after some first enthusiasm, trying out and reading another manual - it seems to to be another dead end. I haven't found any way to sync RealBand with my DAW. I am stuck, getting confused and frustration starts again...

Use RealBand as an intermediary step between constructing your song in BIAB and your DAW. It has many features to help select and generate additional tracks for your project.

Maybe I should rather practice with my real instruments instead of playing with the computer.

I suggest you create a recording of a song you want to use in a BIAB project, use it to locate and generate midi and RealTracks to supplement your live recording and import all that together into your DAW and create your song just as you imagine it to sound.
_________________________
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2021:RB 2021, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.

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#580009 - 02/09/20 01:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany
Hi Charlie,
Thank You so much for your helpful explanations and your hints. At least it looks as if I am not completely off track with my observations. I am not so happy having to deal with 3 different programs (RB, BIAB Standalone, VST) in parallel with my DAW, but it seems to be all I can do at the moment.

Your example about the hired session musician is great. More or less that's the job I expect from BIAB. However I would rather expect the musician aligning with the rest of the band somehow, not necessarily bringing his own band with him and playing the song completely his way and in his tempo. That's probably why I am not so keen on creating the song in the BIAB standalone version upfront. But if I have to do so, I still can mute the rest of his band and copy only him.

For the desired (slight) tempo changes in my song I will have to find some solution. Most songs I do with constant tempo, however sometimes small tempo variations within the song will give it a more natural human touch. That's another good argument for having midi files at hand. Tempo changes are handled by the DAW automatically, without degrading the sound by further audio stretching operations.

I use the Ultra+ version of BIAB. I think the libraries cover the traditional American music styles very well. I can't think of anything that couldn't be found there. (If unavoidable I will also find a way to convert the RealTracks to midi).

Where I would like to see more content of, is the New Age stuff and all kind of other styles from around the world. Let it be African, Oriental, Asian, Balkan, Eastern Europe Gypsy styles, etc.
Especially the African rhythms and oriental instruments are something I am very keen on.
Although I am not a big fan of it, even Hip-Hop, EDM, Rap and other contemporary styles might come handy sometimes.

Thanks once more for your help!

Cheers
Roland
_________________________
BiaB2021 Ultra+, Win 10 64 bit, AMD 6-core, 32GByte RAM, RME Fireface UFX, Samplitude ProX5, REAPER 6, Melodyne Studio, Toontrack SD3, iZotope MP4, NI Komplete 12, Korg Collection, etc.

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#580028 - 02/09/20 05:20 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6391
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6391
Loc: South Carolina
"For the desired (slight) tempo changes in my song I will have to find some solution."

Here you go:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRt2hQ137M

Jump to 37:45 for demonstration and instructions on how to get a click track for audio recorded without a click track
.

Your work flow seems like it will be best to work with starting your project in a DAW or with other recorded audio and then bring in BIAB instruments based on your existing song. knowing that makes it easier to get BIAB/RB to work for you and not against you.

Every so often a joke goes around the forum that BIAB always shows up, never tires of playing the same tune over and over, will practice for hours and won't ever run off with your spouse. That's the joke.

But, the truth is, it will show up dumb as a rock, not know the songs, the key, tempo or chord progression.... You have to tell it everything.
wink


Edited by Charlie Fogle (02/09/20 05:23 AM)
_________________________
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2021:RB 2021, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.

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PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2021 - RealCharts for all RealDrums!

With Band-in-a-Box® 2021, we added over 300 additional RealCharts (with accurate Drum Notation and MIDI to trigger drum sounds) for RealDrums.

That's right... this means that now ALL the RealDrums have RealCharts!

With RealCharts, you can use the notation for MIDI drum parts too - great for copying to a Utility Track!
(Watch this video for a full demonstration of Utility Tracks.)

Learn more about RealCharts for RealDrums with drum notation.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Feature: Utility Tracks

Have you ever wanted to use more than 5 tracks when creating your Band-in-a-Box® song? Great news.... with the new Utility Tracks added in Band-in-a-Box® 2021, there are 16 more tracks!

These can be used for audio and/or MIDI! Generate RealTracks to the Utility Tracks where you can listen to AND edit them and view the RealCharts as MIDI. You can also record to these tracks (MIDI or audio), and import your audio for further editing or to harmonize it.

We explain all the great ways to use the Utility Tracks in this video.

Read more about this feature: Windows | Mac.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac Review – Users' Dreams Come True

Read all about what "Dr. Dave" Walker thinks of his latest copy of Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac with his review, Band-in-a-Box for Mac 2021 – Users' Dreams Come True.

"2021 is a big leap forward to the best Band-in-a-Box for Mac yet! If you have been putting off upgrading, or even if not, NOW is the time to upgrade! And if you haven't got it yet, you owe it to yourself to get Band-in-a-Box 2021.

Maybe the most important point from all the talk about this version is that PG Music is listening to you, their customers. So if you have a feature that you really want in the program, write to them or chat from their web site. Let them know and yours just might be the next feature added."
-"Dr. Dave" Walker

Thanks again Dr. Dave for your enthusiastic feedback, we're thrilled that you love what we've done with Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac!

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 German for Mac is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 für Mac ist hier!

Wir waren fleißig und haben 80 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 202 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI-SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, Artist Performances, Bonus RealDrums "Singles", RealDrums Transkriptionen, MultiStyles PAK 1, Xtra Styles PAK 10 umd 11, und vieles mehr!

Was ist neu? | Paket

Band-in-a-Box 2021 for Mac Special - ENDS TODAY (July 15th)

It's the LAST DAY of our Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac special!

Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK, but only if you place your order before 11:59pm PDT TODAY (July 15, 2021)!

Learn more about all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac at: www.pgmusic.com/bbmac.new.htm

The FREE Bonus PAK & 49-PAK are packed with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2021 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks) upgrade it to the 2021 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available. If you have any questions, contact us -we're here to help!

Xtra Styles PAK 11 - Special Ends on Thursday!

Our Xtra Styles PAKs Special ENDS at 11:59pm PDT on July 15th!

We think you'll love the new RealStyles and MultiStyles added with Xtra Styles PAK 11, which includes new sounds like modern reggaeton, medieval-inspired folk pop, Americana power ballad, speakeasy vocal jazz, R&B and reggae fusion, and more!

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 11 Demos for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows

Order during our special and save 40%! During our Xtra Styles PAK 11 special (ending July 15th), all of our Xtra Styles PAKs 1-11 are on sale for just $29 each (reg. $49)! Looking for more Xtra Styles PAKs? Until July 15th, you can purchase our complete library of all 1,800+ RealStyles with the Xtra Styles PAK 1-11 Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Learn more & order now.

Interested in a specific genre? These can be purchased for $15 each - pick & choose here.

NOTE: Xtra Styles PAKs require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition version 2020 or 2021. (Xtra Styles PAK 11 requires the 2021 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition.) Xtra Styles PAKs won't work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Learn more & listen to demos of Xtra Styles PAK 11.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac Special - Ends Thursday!

It's almost over! Our Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac special ends this Thursday (July 15th)!

Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK, but only if you place your order before 11:59pm PDT Thursday (July 15, 2021)!

Learn more about all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac at: www.pgmusic.com/bbmac.new.htm

The FREE Bonus PAK & 49-PAK are packed with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2021 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks) upgrade it to the 2021 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available. If you have any questions, contact us -we're here to help!

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