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#585225 - 03/12/20 06:20 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard
Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Windsor,Ontario,Canada
Tom Leparskas Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Windsor,Ontario,Canada
A little help needed for audio chord wizard please.
I've imported my file and marked all bars.
I sent it to BIAB 2020 and checked - make tempo map.
If I pick any style for playback - every bar has a different tempo.
Bars will go from 166 beats to 103 to 97 to 120.
What am I missing?

Thanks
Tom

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#585387 - 03/12/20 05:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Tom Leparskas]
Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
t-break Offline
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Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
Hi Tom,
I shall be watching your post carefully as I have the same problem with my 3rd song creation (which is a cover). There is a video on Audio Import on PG's website in case you missed it.
However, the example song they use is VERY straight forward and does not help with tackling more complex song structures. It may help you though.
Import the audio .wav file. Mark the start of the 1st and 2nd bar and then use Auto-marking. If it's a simple song, this should work fine. Then use the Auto-analyse and chords and bars
SHOULD fall correctly with the imported .wav file.

I shall wait to see what knowledgeable responses you get from veteran users to see if their methods/tips help me. If not, I shall post my own 'Help' request. Good luck !!

Cheers
t-break


Edited by t-break (03/12/20 05:10 PM)
Edit Reason: dyslexia

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#585450 - 03/12/20 11:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Tom Leparskas]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
There could be many reasons you're getting the results you are from the ACW. Since you have the 2020 BIAB version, I assume you're using the new integrated ACW. I use the ACW quite a bit without too many issues. Without access to your actual audio file, it's hard to determine the source of your issues. I noted there are some steps that I do when using the ACW that you did not list, so I will detail the steps I take in hope it will help your cause.

First, there are two ways to get audio into a BIAB file and BIAB treats each method differently. You can Open an audio file or you can import an audio file. If you open an audio file, BIAB places the audio file in the Audio Editor window whereas if you import the audio, you are given the option to place the audio at any bar, beat or measure on the BIAB Chord Chart. If you're working from an Audio file from the beginning of your project, it's best to use Open. If you are integrating audio into an existing project, then you import the audio. This prevents BIAB from starting a New Project.

It appears from your project example, I would use the Open Audio command. File Menu|Open\Open Audio (WAV,wma,mp3,mwv,cda)

From a New Project:

.I open the Audio Editor
.I open the audio file I want to work with
.Note that once the audio file opens in the editor, you should observe the following:
An Orange Audio Track in the Mixer
The Style has a X in place before the Style name and the Style is disabled
The audio file in the Audio Editor is not aligned with any bars
BIAB has named the project the name of the imported audio if the audio file used a name.

.In the Audio Editor I place the cursor at the exact point of the first beat of the song
(This may not be the exact beginning of the audio, there may be grace notes where the audio began prior to the first beat. You want the cursor at the first beat)

.With the cursor placed at the first beat, Rt Click with your mouse to open a drop down menu. From the drop down menu, select the last choice, mark this point as bar 1 of the song (e.g. for imported audio with long lead in)and press Enter

.The first bar of the audio is now aligned with bar 1 of the Audio Editor grid.
.Open the Audio Chord Wizard Button
.I activate the Snap Button (Snap to Grid)
.Place the cursor at bar 1 (the snap button assures the cursor placement is exact)
.Add a Bar (L) at bar 1
.Uncheck the Snap Button
.Start playback (Ctrl A) from the beginning of the song
.As the song plays, count the beats and mark bar 2 (L) at bar 2 Stop
.Start playback (Ctrl A) from the beginning of the song
.As the song plays, count the beats and mark bar 3 (L) at bar 2 Stop
.Playback the song from the beginning observing the marker placement to assure they are located correctly - Stop
.Select auto marking and size the window so you can comfortably play through the song and observe the markers are correctly placed through out the entire song.
.As an example, assume the ACW has determined the bpm to be 103.75
.Select Equalize Tempo and set the bpm to 104
.Once the tempo equalization has completed, select Analyze (this analyzes and populates the Chord Chart of the BIAB project)
.I close the ACW at this point. (Select None)
.I close the Audio Editor
(Note the Audio Editor window and the ACW can remain open and the Audio Editor window resized so that you can continue to fine tune the audio file and the BIAB Chord Chart and Tempo, I don't normally need to do this with the files I work with because in most cases, I won't be using the audio file in my project.)

.It's important to close the ACW at this point unless you do want to continue to fine tune the Chord Chart and tempo. If not closed, the ACW will continue to change the Chords in the song Chord Chart.

.Correct any discrepancies with the Chords in the BIAB Chord Chart
.Enable the Style and mute, reduce the audio or remove the audio file per your need of the audio file for your project.

This is the process I use for most of the projects that begin with an audio track as a guide for my project. Hope this helps.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (03/12/20 11:06 PM)
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#585496 - 03/13/20 06:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
t-break Offline
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Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
Hi Charlie,

I hope Tom doesn't mind me hijacking his post, but he may find the same query as me whilst trying to follow your detailed instruction. I have started a new file by opening a .wav file as you recommend. It's the next bit I query :


"With the cursor placed at the first beat, Rt Click with your mouse to open a drop down menu. From the drop down menu, select the last choice, mark this point as bar 1 of the song (e.g. for imported audio with long lead in)and press Enter".


When I right click in the audio window at the point of the 1st beat, the drop down window I get offers "cut/copy/paste". I don't get what you suggest :


"From the drop down menu, select the last choice, mark this point as bar 1 of the song (e.g. for imported audio with long lead in)".


As a result, I don't get to where you seem to get to, which is placing Beat 1 at Bar 1. Where are you right clicking ?? Would you kindly re-visit.

The only way I get Beat 1 to line up with Bar 1 is to place a marker at the right place on the wave form and then place a marker for the start of Bar 2. But when I press AutoMarker, I end up with a tempo different to what I have carefully assessed it should be
whilst playing the audio file against my Korg electronic metronome. The song happens to be Elvis doing "A Fool Such As I", which to my metronome is at 129 BPM. There is a 3-grace note lead up to the start of the 1st bar. The rest of the auto-markers fall out of
sync with the audio and if I try to adjust them, I end up where Tom is ending up - with wildly varying tempo at each bar.

It is fully accepted that back in the day, artists did not always perform to a metronome, resulting in some pulling/pushing through the song, but not drastically.

I hope you have time and willingness to come back on this. Many thanks.

And to Tom - again my apologies for hi-jacking your post, but I came across it whilst searching for answers to the problems you posed. Does Charlie's right clicking give you his drop down window or mine ??


Cheers

t-break

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#585518 - 03/13/20 09:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: t-break]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
Sorry for the confusion. From reading your post I'm thinking you may have the Audio Chord Wizard activated (on).

At the time I open an audio file, I do not have the ACW selected.

On my system, if the ACW has been selected I received the same three options as you; Cut/Copy/Paste

If I deselect the ACW (set to None), Rt clicking anywhere within the Audio Editor screen I have those three options and a fourth option to set the cursor position as Bar 1.

If the Marker Mode Button is deselected, the button reads Marker Mode (none) and the Add/Delete Bar and Analyze buttons are not visible.

I'm pretty sure it is not necessary to manually set bar 1 as I do and with the Marker Mode Button set to the ACW, the ACW should calculate the beats but I've found setting Bar 1 manually first makes syncing the beats to the audio file easier for me. I'm not saying I'm right but just sharing my process with you guys hoping it may help.

"It is fully accepted that back in the day, artists did not always perform to a metronome, resulting in some pulling/pushing through the song, but not drastically."

You are correct but you may find that after syncing beats with the ACW, the Chord Analysis is much more accurate by equalizing the tempo. That's been true for my ACW analysis's.
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#585525 - 03/13/20 11:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
t-break Offline
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Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
Many thanks for clearing that up Charlie.

Before reading your latest post, I had a 4th attempt at this cover song. Somehow I got nearer to the audio .wav file. Close enough for me to see the chords lining up pretty much on the appropriate bars on the Chord Sheet.

However, I did have to do some manual alterations again in the ACW which when playing back, showed the tempo changing from bar to bar. As I (like you) only use the imported audio to help set up the Chord Sheet, I thought to change the tempo to 129 BPM for the whole song.

The only way I know how to do that so far, is to click on each bar and via the F5 window, change each individual bar to the tempo I require. Fortunately, this song is only 2 1/2 minutes, so I persevered. But surely there must be a much quicker way to

universally set every bar to the required tempo. Would you kindly avail me of your considerable knowledge in this matter. It would be most appreciated.

Also, I call back to Tom who started this thread and hope this exchange has answered his dilemma.

All the best

Chris

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#585530 - 03/13/20 12:02 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Tom Leparskas]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19816
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19816
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
For me personally, if I am trying something like this, I would use the BiaB sister program called Realband.

You probably already have RB (it comes with BiaB) and the ACW in RB doesn't seem so convoluted to me. But that's just me.
RB seems to handle tempos and time signatures much better in my experience. It handles some time sigs BiaB simply can't.

You can import audio, use ACW to establish tempo map and chords (in conjunction with chords window) and still generate individual tracks as desired afterwards.
You actually get more tracks to work with and more options in many cases.
Just a thought..

In t-breaks example;
if you opened the wav file in RB instead
then set the tempo to 129
THEN open ACW
(tell it to use the existing file and not open something new in the resulting popup)
you would see how RB interprets it at 129

Now in the ACW you can play the song and tap the F8 key on '1' of any measure that needs adjusting.
You'll see RB recalculate the chords/tempo on the fly.

After you send it back to RB and you can still adjust the Chords window .. then regenerate any desired tracks.

It's a different workflow, but seems more intuitive to me.


Edited by rharv (03/13/20 12:24 PM)
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#585541 - 03/13/20 01:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Tom Leparskas]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5608
Loc: South Carolina
<<< "The only way I know how to do that so far, is to click on each bar and via the F5 window, change each individual bar to the tempo I require." >>>

There is a one click option for this:

Top tool bar:

Audio\Set Audio Master (Base) Tempo

Another useful one click option is rather than use F5 to reset bars

Audio\Audio Chord Wizard Utilities...\Select Erase Tempo Map Button

This option is especially useful when you have other bar settings in addition to tempo changes. Using the Erase Tempo Map Button in the Audio Chord Wizard Utilities Menu will only erase the Tempo Map and will leave any other Bar Setting changes you've made intact.
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#585542 - 03/13/20 01:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: rharv]
Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
t-break Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 30
Loc: UK
Respect to both you 'vets' !!!! You are much appreciated. Many thanks for your help.


All the best.

Chris

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#585728 - 03/14/20 10:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempos all wrong after using Audio Chord Wizard [Re: Tom Leparskas]
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1397
Loc: Hong Kong
lambada Offline
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Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1397
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanks so much for this thread. I gave up using the Audio Chord Wizard as it all seemed too hard. I'm going to go back and revisit it and also try it in Realband.
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