I started creating a song in BIAB using _CBOOGS2.sty @ 129 bpm and got to the point where I could lay down the vocals. (Trying to match Elvis is NOT easy !!!). Up until today I was quite excited with the progress I had made and put it into Cakewalk by BandLab. I thought to then tinker as a means to becoming more familiar with all the software that I have. I wanted to put a slightly more interesting drum track to the song than was provided by the Style that I had used. I turned to EZDrummer and created a new drum track that rocked a bit more with the song. I muted the BIAB drum track and sat back to enjoy.
I find that I'm not on Cloud 9. As the playback progressed, I found that all my hard work on the vocals and editing and rough mixing in Cakewalk was not resulting in me reaching for a glass of Scotch for the right reasons. The timing/tempo between the BIAB tracks and the EZDrummer track started to drift by the time the playback got to Bar 35-36 (very slightly and NOT from the start) and then by bar 65-66 seemed to 'jump' to a greater degree of difference. The BIAB tracks and my vocal track (which I had recorded against the full BIAB song, had started to fall behind. As I said, it was not at an even rate through the song.
I soloed the BIAB drum track with the EZD drum track so not to be confused. The tempo changes were clearly there. I then needed to discover if it was the BIAB or EZD drum track that was at fault, so I soloed each one in turn with Cakewalk's metronome switched on. It is BIAB's drum track that falls behind at 2x different points in the song. By the end of the song there is a 2x BEAT difference or thereabouts.
My dilemma now, is how to move forward. Do I try to mess around with squeezing the EZD drum track to fit with all the other tracks, or do I try stretching the BIAB tracks to fit with the EZD drum track. Either way, it seems that I have to re-do the vocals (which my neighbours aren't going to appreciate !!).
Any constructive thoughts on how I should go about this would be appreciated - but MORE IMPORTANTLY - has anyone else experienced the same issue ?? Has this got something to do with Style built in tempos being squeezed or stretched to fit the tempo of the BIAB song you are creating ??
It would be a shame if this is a weakness of BIAB because I am anticipating using EZD drum tracks in favour of BIAB Style generated drum tracks for most of my songs, simply for the fact that you can have each piece of drum kit in EZD placed on its separate DAW track for individual treatment and mixing purposes.
I don’t have an answer but I have experienced something like this. I took a BIAB track to the pro recording studio I use. My track was tempo quarter note = 140 bpm. The engineer determined it was actually 139.6 something. We stretched it to a true 140 as measured by his hardware word clock.
What is different in your case is you have said there are, for lack of a better word, glitches at certain places. I did not experience this; my tempo seemed stable, just not precisely right.
I don’t know if software has a mechanism to sync to a word clock, nor which software does so if it even is possible. And my home setup, while quite good, does not have hardware that would sync to a word clock. It’s an area I would like to know more about.
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I wonder if it's related to ACID information possibly being stored in the BIAB files.
By default, Cakewalk will read ACID information and stretch or shrink audio with such information embedded. This sometimes causes misalignment of tracks.
Is your Cakewalk tempo set to exactly the same as BIAB? BIAB only has whole-number tempos where Cakewalk has decimal values (as Matt has mentioned above). Also, are you using a MIDI for the net in Cakewalk as well? I suspect that the embedded tempos in this (if any) can override Cakewalk's setting.
As a starting place, try disabling the 'read ACID information' setting in Cakewalk. I don't know what it's called but it will be there somewhere.
To Matt - in a weird way, it's good to know that it's not only me with this experience. But of course, it's NOT good. And you read me correctly. The drift isn't an equal drift from start to end. It's perfect snyc to about Bar 35 when it becomes noticeable and then at around Bar 65 it jumps to being unacceptably noticeable. I'm fairly certain that it is not my imagination running away with me (queue for a song).
To Noel96 - ACID information is totally new to me. Thanks for mentioning it. I will research it and then check within Cakewalk. All I know is that I set BIAB to 129bpm whole units and when in Cakewalk, I also typed in a round 129bpm. Your 2nd question Noel shows up my ignorance : "are you using a MIDI for the net in Cakewalk as well?". Would you mind explaining this a bit more to me.
Whilst you have both been brave to jump in on this and give me helpful pointers, I hope others will simply advise if they have had the same experience.
Your 2nd question Noel shows up my ignorance : "are you using a MIDI for the net in Cakewalk as well?". Would you mind explaining this a bit more to me.
Woops... and I thought I proof-read my post. Sorry.
It's not your ignorance that is shown up but my slipshod typing. So your integrity remains intact.
What I was trying to ask was, did you download a MIDI file from the net and use that in either Cakewalk or BIAB?
I have EZ Drummer and use it often. I've never had a problem with it matching tracks created in BIAB.
I think Noel is referring to MIDI files not created by BIAB (such as downloaded from the Internet) that can contain tempo changes (and who knows what else). In other cases posted here, we have advised looking for control changes within the file. But if you are simply generating your own BIAB file, that doesn’t apply here.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Thanks again - both of you. Your willingness to help is amazing. It is reassuring Noel that you use EZD with BIAB songs without this issue.
No, I haven't used a downloaded Midi file in this song. It is only BIAB and then EZD added.
I have read up on ACID and am now looking to find where in Cakewalk there might be a means to disable it.
I am also looking on BandLab's help pages to check out what my settings should be for synchronisation. It suggests Trigger & Freewheel if my interface has a Word Clock input. I have a Steinberg UR44 and I don't think it has. So I am set up to use Full Chase Lock.
Then a setting : When SMPTE/MTC Timecode Is Detected (always switch clock source / do not switch clock source but start if in SMPTE/MTC mode / never switch). Now my brain is hurting, but I shall try the different options and come back to what it was set on if changing these do not make a difference to my problem. It was set on Ask first, then switch clock source and start.
Then another setting choice : When clock source is set to SMPTE/MTC or MIDI Sync, pressing Play will : Switch current clock source and play back : OR : Maintain current clock source and wait for time code and I have to set either preference.
I guess I should be on Bandlab's forums to get advice on this.
If I stumble upon something I shall definitely come back with my findings.
I was working on just that before I read your input. I thought it would be a simple matter of copy and paste but I'm being asked for a full URL when I try to enter the JPGs in this window. They are sitting on my Windows Desktop. Sorry to ask, but what is the procedure here ?
I was working on just that before I read your input. I thought it would be a simple matter of copy and paste but I'm being asked for a full URL when I try to enter the JPGs in this window. They are sitting on my Windows Desktop. Sorry to ask, but what is the procedure here ?
Regards Chris
You need an image hosting service like Imgur. They have a free starter that I used for years. Haven't run out of free storage yet.
I've just checked this Forums FAQs and found what to do. The only problem I have now is that I get an error message saying that my image exceeds 10Mb when it's only 256Kbs. I shall doggedly keep trying to upload my images in 4x separate replies.
Go to www.DropBox.com and create a free account, I think you get 2gig free. Upload the wav file, Share, copy link if the link has a 0 on the end it will take you to the site to download it, if you change it to a 1 on the end it will direct download.
t-break For images: You do need to have a certain number of posts here before the File Manager allows you to post an image on PGMusic servers. If that is what you are trying to do, I'd try making one more post, then try again. I'm not sure if the threshold is 10 posts, but you have 9 so far (when I posted) so worth a shot. Not sure if this will indeed help in your case, but I have seen it with others; you need a certain number of accepted posts before the File Manager image feature works. I'm just not sure what that number is. Oh, and you need to be in full reply mode or Edit reply mode .. the quick reply window doesn't offer this option at all.
EDIT - I see you got it now
I have also used EZDrums and others like it without issue, so hopefully someone here can help figure out the issue.
/I think RB can open a BiaB file and allow using EZDrummer at the same time. //I wonder what that result would be for you (as a test)
Last edited by rharv; 03/16/2001:39 PM.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
And here's the final image at Bar 68 showing the extra jump in off-sync.
So
Image #1 shows in sync from start to Bar 35.
Image #2 shows off-sync from Bar 36
Image #3 shows same off-sync at Bar 67 as at Bar 36
Image #4 shows extra off-sync from Bar 68 to end of song
I'll be positive through this as whilst still trying to resolve my problem, I have found out in a period of a few days that you are extremely willing and helpful souls on this forum AND I have learnt how to upload images.
I hope anyone seeing my screenshots will spot something obviously simple.
To Pipeline : I notice that your screenshot in Reaper shows the BIAB drum track isolated from the _CBOOGS2 Style and it makes me wonder if the isolated drum track was altered when matching with the 2x guitar tracks and Bass track when making up the Style ?? It's just a wild grab at some explanation. I wonder if I went to the trouble of bringing in the 4x isolated tracks that make up the Style, into Cakewalk and see if I get a different story (well, I do mean song).
Hope you can stick with me through this. Many, many thanks and all the best,
I couldn't see very well either in his images, but what I *think* I saw was the existing tracks seemed off compared to the grid. The EZDrum seemed on. So if played alone the existing tracks would sound fine, but with EZDrum (or others aligned to the tempo map) things get off. Can you easily create a 'click' or metronome in Bandlabs that aligns with the tempo map? If EZDrums aligns to it, and the imported BiaB tracks do not, then the click track (tempo map) would be suspect. Or maybe some loop metadata.
Just trying to help find a quick way to figure out which is causing the problem.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
So are you just using all the tracks from that style then added you vocals in BandLab ? Are there any tempo changes in Biab you will see them as red lines under the bar number.
I Created the BIAB song using the _CBOOGS2 Style. I opened Cakewalk by BandLab and inserted the BIAB vst from the insert Synth menu. I opened the song into the VST version of BIAB and then passed the blue marker into Cakewalk right at the 0 marker. The 4x tracks that made up the Style fell into their separate tracks in Cakewalk. Because I wasn't suspicious of timing/sync problems, I then started upsetting the neighbours with my singing. Of course, my vocals were following the BIAB song. All sounded great until I thought to put an EZD drum track in place of the Style drum. That's when I noticed the drift start midway (Bar 37) through the playback and get worse from Bar 68. I did not tamper with anything that would have put tracks out of sync. If I mute the EZD drum track, I hear no problem with my vocals syncing with the 4x Style tracks because that's what I laid my vocals against.
Having said all that, I doubled checked myself before making my 1st posting of this thread so as not to waste anyone's time. I turned on Cakewalk's metronome on playback and heard the Style tracks go off sync from Bar 37. I muted BIAB and listened to the metronome against EZD. Perfectly in sync from start to finish. I then soloed the Style drum track against the metronome to be doubly certain. Again I heard the drift.
Bear in mind rharv, that the drift is not EVENLY PROGRESSIVE from start to finish. It is perfectly in sync up to Bar 36, then starts to drift, which is what makes this all quite curious. Nor have I snipped the Style tracks and pushed them backwards or forwards in the timeline. They came straight out of BIAB plug-in to the very start of the timeline.
Maybe I shall upload the images again at a higher resolution to make the issue clearer.
Please read my response to rharv just above. It explains my moves step by step. I do not see any tempo changes and I made sure before bringing the BIAB song into Cakewalk that ALL bars were set to 129bpm.
Having said that, this was my 4th attempt at creating the song having had problems wrestling with the ACR facility in BIAB when I brought in the artist's original audio file. What a groove Elvis had !!!
In fact, I joined another thread on the topic of the ACR a few days before starting this one and the help given there put me on track (excuse the pun). It was explained to me how to ensure ALL bars are universally set to the required tempo as well.
So, all I have in Cakewalk is the BIAB song using the 4x tracks included in the named style, to which I laid my vocals against. Then I brought in EZDrummer.
I might just now put the kettle on at half past midnight and have another t-break whilst re-doing the images at a higher res.
Can you upload the SGU or as in the previous post the wav to dropbox. If you used the Audio Chord Wizard on the original it would of tempo mapped it. This is what I get using the BBvst rather than just dragging in the wav tracks from Biab:
Sorry about jumping in but I have an idea. Are you using repeats (multiple choruses) in your Band-in-a-Box song file or is your song file one chorus?
I suspect your song file is multiple choruses with each chorus 35 or 36 bars long and the lag you're experiencing is the time it takes for your computer render or playback head to move from the last bar back to the beginning of the chorus.
If you're song file has multiple choruses use the Edit > Song Form > Unfold command to make it one long chorus.
That was a GREAT thought - but - in the few months that I have really been using BIAB, I somehow find it easier for my brain to handle 1x full chorus for the whole of the song.
I have just posted my SGU to Pipeline above. Please have a look. I have a positive feeling that an answer is there in plain sight and it will be me with the blushes !!!
...Are there any tempo changes in Biab you will see them as red lines under the bar number.
The tempo changes are @ bar 33 and 65 from 129 to 125 At the bottom of the of the F5 Bar Setting dialog you can Rest all bars to remove tempo changes, But seems you have recorded the vocals to that tempo map you can save one of the tracks to midi from Biab by dragging the guitar track with underscore to MID drop (the Drum RC was not working), now open that in a new BandLab and it should import the tempo map from the midi file (Jim might tell you the best way, I think you can ctrl drag or alt drag in so it imports the map from the midi file?) EDIT: If you go to File > Open > BB-midi-file-with-tempo-map.mid it will import the tempo map into new session, then View > Tempo you will see the changes. Once you have the midi in with the tempo map drag your BB tracks in and the vocal track you saved from original session. Now EZDrummer will be in sync. EDIT: if you wanted it without the tempo changes just take the tempo changes out of Biab, drag those tracks into a new BandLab session, import the original vocal track and split the wav track at the old tempo change bars then slide it in sync to the music.
What I realise now, is that whilst I followed Charlie Fogle's instruction (from a different thread) on how to globally set the tempo to 129 ( Audio/Set audio master base tempo), this does not apparently remove any anomalous tempo changes at certain bars.
That's not Charlie's fault because all I asked was "Is there a way to globally set tempo".
Having followed the instruction, I imagined that the red lines under the bars came on as a result of this action. This thought was strengthened by the fact that ALL the bars ended up with red underline - not just the 2x Bars that you have identified.
All this has taught me about the underlying/lurking tempo map that is created at the start of each song.
I can hear all the contributors to this thread groaning in their hands !! I'm sure they would all have spotted my blunder if they hadn't taken me on my word that there were no tempo changes.
What an invaluable asset this Forum is to all BIAB users and what a treasure of willing good souls. THANK YOU ALL !!! My sincere apologies if you feel that I've wasted your time.
I shall start afresh in Cakewalk by importing the refreshed BIAB song and simply (??) re-do the vocals (hopefully with a lot more Elvis groove to it).
Oh my, I wasn't very clear at all with the tempo instructions.
I provided both steps of the process to set an even tempo to 129 but I was not clear that to complete the process was actually done in two steps.
My instructions read as though the two steps were not related though as you learned, they are. I'm sorry about that oversight.
Looking back at that post, I should have been clear that you should open the ACW Chord Wizard utilities to erase the tempo map and then reset the Master Tempo to the desired setting.
I use the ACW Chord Wizard Utilities rather than the Reset All Bars from the Bar settings window because using Reset All Bars in the Bar Settings Window removes all the changes to every bar where using the Erase Tempo Map in the ACW Chord Wizard Utilities only erases the Tempo map and has no effect on any other changes made to all the Bars such as mute, return to normal, style changes, Realtrack changes or patch changes.
Charlie was the one that put me onto "Reset All Bars" to clear the tempo map. But the whole idea of this exercise was to save you redoing the vocals. As there are only 2 bars in the whole song with a slower tempo you could split and align that vocal track to the corrected BB tracks.
I seem to have jumped the gun fellas, when saying it was all syncing. My vocals trip out of alignment at Bar 36 for 3x Bars and then fall in again, so I'm still snipping the vocal track and trying to align.
To be honest, if it takes much more fiddling, I will just go to a new vocal take. All the other tracks do sync perfectly and I'm very happy with how my EZD drum arrangement fits in.
I do believe that my current situation is due to my trying to snip and align the vocals to the original BIAB song which contained the 2x Bars with a tempo change. Now that I have replaced those tracks with
a new, corrected set of BIAB tracks, it seems to be making it that bit more difficult to align somehow. That is down to my not being wholly proficient with Cakewalk. That will change from here on.
What really matters is that BIAB and EZD work perfectly together which makes me happy and you all chipped in to get to the cause of my self-imposed problem. I have been wonderfully educated.
I guess this wraps up this case. I look forward sometime in the future to return the favour by helping others on this Forum.
yeah, hang in there. 3 bars needing a timing adjustment shouldn't equal rerecording the vocals. Not in any DAW; whether it be Bandlab, Reaper, RB, PT or whatever.
If you are trying the snip method (cut/paste) maybe try the slide method instead (usually done by holding the CTRL key down and dragging the desired section on a timeline view) so you can see the alignment ..
very worst case, rerecord that one verse and paste it over
Last edited by rharv; 03/17/2002:25 PM.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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