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The sound quality of the midi styles coming out of the BIAB (2019) seems really poor to me. The instruments sound muddy and distorted. Tonight I tried an experiment and exported the midi from BIAB and dragged it into my DAW, where it sounded much better, without making any changes in the DAW.

My computer is a relatively new Windows 10 system, fairly high powered. I am using a Scarlett 6i6 interface and sound in every other program sounds fine on my monitor speakers. BIAB is set up to put Audio out through the Scarlett interface.

So I am wondering if there is something I can set in BIAB to get better instrument sound quality? Or do I have to buy something extra? Yes, I know that RealTracks styles exist, but I need to stay in Midi so I can edit later.

I would appreciate any help or at least a direction to investigate.

Thanks
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PG Music has a "MIDI In a Nutshell" Tutorial that addresses this issues better than I can:

https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_midi2.htm

The important point is that MIDI itself has no sound, so poor MIDI sound quality is a function of the synthesizer it is played through. Chances are that your DAW has a better quality synth than whatever you're playing BIAB through.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Bruce

Last edited by babarton; 03/27/20 11:21 PM.

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Welcome.

Yes, MIDI is only instructions and the quality of sound depends completely on the MIDI synth you use. It can be hardware or software. The one built into computers and used by default in Windows is as bad as it gets.

This web page on the PG Music site is outdated by ten years but it will give you a very good start to understanding the possibilities. Go here: https://www.pgmusic.com/dare-to-compare.htm


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Hi Glenn and welcome,

I use BiaB MIDI almost exclusively. The GM MIDI sound source that comes with BiaB is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sound quality IMHO. A step up is the included sforzando. It uses the SFZ format. That is the same format as a number of entry level MIDI sound sources like Garritan's and Aria products. These are good sounding instruments, plus some are free.

At the same level are Soundfonts (SF2). There are a number of free SF2s available as well as free VSTis to run them like the

TX16Wx: https://www.tx16wx.com/

The next and biggest step up to great sounding MIDI are expensive programs like Kontakt and SampleTank:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6/

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletank3/

Both have sales occasionally so wait for one if you can or want.

However both have free players that you can use:

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletankcs/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/free-download/

I use the full version of Kontakt. The free Kontakt player is only a player, thus you can not manipulate the sounds other than what GUI allows. Also one must be careful as some sounds are only for the full version, but there are a lot of sounds for the player. The full version will play both. I like Kontakt as there are a ton of third party sounds for it, some are free and some very expensive.

Another great sounding program is EastWest Play:

http://www.soundsonline.com/

This has great sounds but it is also very expensive, more so the the above mentioned programs.

The rule of thumb when it comes to MIDI is the more you spend the better the sound BUT if you have a good working of MIDI CCs, pitch bend, etc, you can get some very good sounds out of SF2s and SFZs. They are not as good as the others that I mentioned but they can be OK.

Good luck.


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Mario has given a great overview of software. I’m a composer preparing demos, so for the MIDI melodies in BIAB I don’t want to spend a lot of time and I use a hardware MIDI synth. I have Roland’s best, but any Roland synth uses many of the same basic sounds. The link I gave you included demos for the SD-20. I had one. I’ve since moved up but the SD-20 gives a pretty good sample of what any Roland synth sound like.


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I really appreciate the information you all have provided. Some of it I already knew, but some was a revelation...I have been fighting with BIAB for years, giving up on it more than using it, and I obviously should have come to this forum sooner.

The Dare to Compare chart was really helpful...I had no idea that was there.

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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Hi Glenn and welcome,

I use BiaB MIDI almost exclusively. The GM MIDI sound source that comes with BiaB is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sound quality IMHO. A step up is the included sforzando. It uses the SFZ format. That is the same format as a number of entry level MIDI sound sources like Garritan's and Aria products. These are good sounding instruments, plus some are free.

At the same level are Soundfonts (SF2). There are a number of free SF2s available as well as free VSTis to run them like the

TX16Wx: https://www.tx16wx.com/

The next and biggest step up to great sounding MIDI are expensive programs like Kontakt and SampleTank:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6/

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletank3/

Both have sales occasionally so wait for one if you can or want.

However both have free players that you can use:

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletankcs/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/free-download/

I use the full version of Kontakt. The free Kontakt player is only a player, thus you can not manipulate the sounds other than what GUI allows. Also one must be careful as some sounds are only for the full version, but there are a lot of sounds for the player. The full version will play both. I like Kontakt as there are a ton of third party sounds for it, some are free and some very expensive.

Another great sounding program is EastWest Play:

http://www.soundsonline.com/

This has great sounds but it is also very expensive, more so the the above mentioned programs.

The rule of thumb when it comes to MIDI is the more you spend the better the sound BUT if you have a good working of MIDI CCs, pitch bend, etc, you can get some very good sounds out of SF2s and SFZs. They are not as good as the others that I mentioned but they can be OK.

Good luck.


Mario and others, thank you for the great replies. I do understand that MIDI is just data and something has to "play it." I just need some help navigating the options. I would love to have a quick partial cheap solution (ready yesterday) and then a more expensive well-researched very good solution.

Let me be clearer on what I need. I don't want to tinker with the sounds much. I simply want a decent sounding package for composing and singing against. I just don't want to be distracted by bad sound. I am just writing songs and singing standards and doing some vocal improvisation against chord patterns.

On the cheap quick side, I fussed around some with an app called sforzando from Plogue which is on my system, and I do have an sf2 file from another program, with general MIDI instruments, but I don't know how to put it all together. I remember that these sounds are tolerable, not great, and so if it is simple, I would like to install it, if someone can point me to the way to include this in BIAB. I see now in re-reading your post that Soundfonts and Sforzando are two different approaches. Sigh. I did download and install the TX16Wx product; I think it installed a VST, but again, that looks like it is designed for tinkering and shaping the sounds.

So now for my revelation. I do use the Kontakt player with my DAW, but I have never fully grasped that whole world of products that go into it. Did I understand you correctly that libraries of sounds used in Kontakt can somehow be accessed through BIAB? By some driver or something that sends the MIDI to the Kontakt player? Everything I have ever looked at that goes with Kontakt is some kind of very specialized library, strings or horns for example. Is there a basic set of instruments that comes with the player or full version and actually sounds good? I looked at the Kontakt 6 demo just now; it looks like a bunch of specialized sampled instruments (Hybrid Keys, Analog Dreams, etc)...when I used it in my DAW, it was just with a horn package I bought. I currently have the Kontakt 5 player.

I guess SampleTank is the same issue. When I look at it, there are thousands of specialized instruments. I am not sure how this gives me a simple decent sounding jazz quartet or piano ballad to compose with in BIAB. (I do use VSTs inside of my DAW; I just didn't think BIAB supported VSTs.

So that leads me to hardware. Suppose I want to spend some money to just get fine sounds...something that will hook up easily to BIAB and my Scarlett interface and give me quality sound. Something portable and small, I suppose, easy to travel with. Tell me how to spend my money (sorry, for my manners...Please tell me!).

Thanks for any continued help.

Glenn

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Glen what DAW are you using?

Are you doing your MIDI editing in BiaB or your DAW?

If you are looking for a GM sound set that sounds as good as the individual sounds of Kontakt, Sampletank, etc, forget about it. Some of those individual sounds are as large as an entire GM set, memory wise.

Yes you can use Kontakt in BiaB. However I do not use it that way. I take BiaB MIDI and drag and drop it into my DAW Studio One Pro. There is where I add my sounds and do my MIDI editing. This makes more sense to me but others may not agree.

Either way for the best MIDI sounds you will have to learn how to assign each BiaB MIDI track to an individual sound source regardless if you do it in BiaB or your DAW. The same is true if you are using hardware that does not have a GM set.

The TX16Wx can be used as a player only. That is how I use it when on occasion I need a SF2 sound, which for me is when I need a GM drum kit. I rarely need such a kit but if/when I do the TX16Wx is my go to SF2 player. There are others available though.

There are also a large number of free VSTis. Some of them are very good.

Let us know which DAW you are using and we can be more helpful.

{edit} - I forgot to mention that SF2s can be used in Sforzando. It will convert them to SFZ files.


Last edited by MarioD; 03/28/20 08:09 AM.

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If you decide to use hardware, many here like the Ketron offerings. I don’t know if they are still available. I assume you use a laptop and want to travel with it. This is a decent argument for hardware, because any software sound library is going to require a lot of disk space.


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Wow! Matt Finley and Mario D, thanks for an education well beyond my simplistic answer to Tiger's question. I'm on a Mac, where I think the default system general midi synth is better than it is on Windows. But if I want better sounds or the ability to play around with sounds more, I drag and drop midi from BIAB into Logic.


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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Glen what DAW are you using?
On Windows, I am using Mixcraft, it seems to do everything I want. But I am agnostic and have tried others. On my iPad, I am using Cubasis, which is surprisingly good for playing with loops and developing ideas. I also own a Korg PA4x and sometimes develop ideas playing on the keyboard...my keyboard skills are so so, but I can chord and develop ideas. I was a businessman for 50 years, only recently come back to music. I am 71, a musician since I retired from business.
Quote:

Are you doing your MIDI editing in BiaB or your DAW?
I didn't know you could edit MIDI in BIAB! I only understand the basics of BIAB: load a song, or create chords for a song, pick a style to go with it, swear at the sound of the instruments, sigh a lot. When I want to edit, I go to Mixcraft.
Quote:
If you are looking for a GM sound set that sounds as good as the individual sounds of Kontakt, Sampletank, etc, forget about it. Some of those individual sounds are as large as an entire GM set, memory-wise.
No, not expecting that miracle. Those libraries are for finished production work. I am mostly a hobbyist, singer and wannabe songwriter. Just wanting something better than default GM sound on Windows. I am really looking for the best way to develop song ideas, where the sound I am listening to is not distracting me with its cheesiness. Korg sounds are beautiful, Mixcraft sounds are generally good with the included instruments, Cubasis sounds are decent for what I am using them for, but BIAB sounds are a distraction. BIAB looks like it would be a good platform for developing song ideas if I could be listening to better quality instruments. Also, I am practising singing standards, and want a better sounding band!

Quote:
Either way for the best MIDI sounds you will have to learn how to assign each BiaB MIDI track to an individual sound source regardless if you do it in BiaB or your DAW. The same is true if you are using hardware that does not have a GM set.
I do change the instruments in BIAB, using a dropdown in the Mixer window, when an instrument is particularly bothering me. Tenor sax sounds awful, but no substitute for it in the horns that I could find. Acoustic piano is not great, so I switch to one of the electrics. Sometimes I find something better, but it wastes time and breaks me away from the creative process.

Quote:
The TX16Wx can be used as a player only. That is how I use it when on occasion I need a SF2 sound, which for me is when I need a GM drum kit. I rarely need such a kit but if/when I do the TX16Wx is my go-to SF2 player. There are others available though.
I have to set this aside because I don't understand at all how this integrates into BIAB. How do you tell BIAB to not use the standard Windows MIDI?

Thanks for all the great help!

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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
If you decide to use hardware, many here like the Ketron offerings. I don’t know if they are still available. I assume you use a laptop and want to travel with it. This is a decent argument for hardware, because any software sound library is going to require a lot of disk space.
Right now I travel with an iPad, and soon an iPad Pro. I might go to a laptop if I needed to. As for the Ketron, it almost doesn't seem to be for sale in the channels here in the USA. All the references I see look like they are many years old. I will post separately here to see if anyone can steer me.

What Roland product are you using? I want to there site, trying to see what their current product is, but everything I saw that looked like a midi module (Roland Sound Canvas) was discontinued.

Thanks for the help.

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Originally Posted By: Tiger
The sound quality of the midi styles coming out of the BIAB (2019) seems really poor to me. The instruments sound muddy and distorted. Tonight I tried an experiment and exported the midi from BIAB and dragged it into my DAW, where it sounded much better, without making any changes in the DAW.

My computer is a relatively new Windows 10 system, fairly high powered. I am using a Scarlett 6i6 interface and sound in every other program sounds fine on my monitor speakers. BIAB is set up to put Audio out through the Scarlett interface.

So I am wondering if there is something I can set in BIAB to get better instrument sound quality? Or do I have to buy something extra? Yes, I know that RealTracks styles exist, but I need to stay in Midi so I can edit later.

I would appreciate any help or at least a direction to investigate.

Thanks
Glenn



So ... first off, Welcome to the world of PG music and Band in a Box.

This is the thing....as others have said, the sound you get from midi is totally a product of the synth you have and the patches or samples it plays. General midi stuff sounds bad when you have worked with the better samplers. I only use sampled sounds now on the rare occasions I use Midi.

I tend to only use midi for drums, piano, and bass. Those have relatively decent sounding samples.

So in BB, depending on the version you bought, you should have a number of REAL TRACKS for various instruments. I would suggest learning how to use those. I tend to almost exclusively use RT's in my music. Only if I need a custom part that BB will not give me, will I use midi. I also never use midi for things like guitar since it's really hard to get a convincing guitar from midi. RT's are excellent but since I play guitar, I often do my own guitars.


To see what I'm taking about..... click the link below to listen to a few things I am doing using RT's.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/29/20 05:35 AM.

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Hi Glen,

Correct me if I am wrong but you are a novice at this right?

If so here is what I would do. Forget about changing sounds in BiaB as you are working with the same low end GM sounds. Drag and drop the BiaB MIDI tracks to Mixcraft and learn how to assign your Kontakt player to each and every track. For now add a different Kontakt player to each track. Then assign different sounds to each track via the player. It isn't that hard. If you are having difficulties let me know and I will DL the Mixcraft demo and try it myself; or maybe some here who uses Mixcraft can help.

Once you learn how to add the player to each track the same process is used for adding any VSTi. There are a good number of excellent sounding VSTis, some free, some very expensive, and many in between.

After you master that then we can talk about adding your Korg sounds to BiaB MIDI tracks.


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Mario makes a good point that you can use BIAB to develop a song, then move it into Mixcraft to enhance the sound.

You asked what I have for a hardware MIDI synth. Many of us have that info in our forum signature (the info below this post). You’ll see mine is a Roland Integra-7.


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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Hi Glen,

Correct me if I am wrong but you are a novice at this right?
Computer Knowledge: Expert, Musician: Amateur, BIAB knowledge: Beginner +, DAW Knowledge: Intermediate.
Originally Posted By: MarioD

If so here is what I would do. Forget about changing sounds in BiaB as you are working with the same low end GM sounds. Drag and drop the BiaB MIDI tracks to Mixcraft and learn how to assign your Kontakt player to each and every track. For now add a different Kontakt player to each track. Then assign different sounds to each track via the player.
I can do this and did it this afternoon. I looked at the factory instruments, and there is a small selection of instruments, and they do sound better. BUT I want to go back to my original question. I don't want to leave BIAB until the last minute. I want to do the song prototyping development as long as possible in BIAB. Then I will move to the DAW.

Perhaps a different example will make it clearer. Today I was working on practicing singing a song. I had a BIAB version of the song ready with chords, and I found a decent style. But I would have liked the "band" to have better sound! I didn't want to move to move to the DAW, because then I lose the view of the song in Chords and Measure.

So, is there any way to make BIAB sound better? Other than a hardware synth.

Glenn

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Coyote Forte is a decent sounding relatively inexpensive software GM MIDI synth. One downside: you have to run the 32-bit version of BIAB. As far as I know, you won't lose anything.

https://www.pgmusic.com/coyotefortedxi.htm

You've already heard the demos on Dare to Compare.


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Originally Posted By: Tiger
.....................

Perhaps a different example will make it clearer. Today I was working on practicing singing a song. I had a BIAB version of the song ready with chords, and I found a decent style. But I would have liked the "band" to have better sound! I didn't want to move to move to the DAW, because then I lose the view of the song in Chords and Measure.

So, is there any way to make BIAB sound better? Other than a hardware synth.

Glenn


Glenn, this may work for you. Although I do not have to do this as using Pipline's utility I can bring the chords into Studio One Pro I just experimented and found that this works, at least for me.

Get your BiaB song as you want using he included GM. Using the drag and drop bring the tracks into your DAW and assign your sounds to those tracks. Now in your DAW open the BiaB VSTi and load your song into it. Now you can see your chord sheet and it will follow your DAW, thus you can see what measure you are on and what chord is assigned to that measure. The nice thing is that the BiaB VSTi is scalable so you can make it a large as your monitor if you wish. Using this method you can use the better sounds in your DAW, record your vocals in your DAW, while you view the BiaB measure and chords.


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Hi, dragging and dropping is nice, but, since BIAB gives you the chords and all, the melody... I also prefer to use band in a box directly.

My setup for playing and practicing is:
*download loopbe, freely available,
*disable vst in band in a box,
*in midi options disable all send messages (patch messages, panning...)
*in preferences-overrides, disable all sends
*assign midi out to loopbe
*start Kontakt, choose loopbe midi in
*pick the correct channels for each instrument.

Then: enjoy the great sounds of Kontakt libraries. If you wish, you can use UVI or other vsts, even synthfont as your preferred synth.

If I want to record, I use no midi out and load Kontakt as a VST using Default synth and loading my patches in Kontakt
If you disable all sends it keeps your setup intact (if you always use the same drum n bass n piano

You can save songs with vst patches if you switch instruments.

Hope this helps you


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Originally Posted By: MarioD


Glenn, this may work for you. Although I do not have to do this as using Pipline's utility I can bring the chords into Studio One Pro I just experimented and found that this works, at least for me.
Mario, tell me how Pipeline works...I don't really know Studio One, but anything that brings chords into a DAW sounds interesting. I had a starter copy of Studio One once, but didn't see a major advantage over Mixcraft.

Originally Posted By: MarioD
Get your BiaB song as you want using the included GM. Using the drag and drop bring the tracks into your DAW and assign your sounds to those tracks. Now in your DAW open the BiaB VSTi and load your song into it. Now you can see your chord sheet and it will follow your DAW, thus you can see what measure you are on and what chord is assigned to that measure. The nice thing is that the BiaB VSTi is scalable so you can make it a large as your monitor if you wish. Using this method you can use the better sounds in your DAW, record your vocals in your DAW, while you view the BiaB measure and chords.
Yes, interesting, thank you. I really haven't given the BIAB VST a fair trial...since on a track, in my DAW, it has the same GM sounds. Offhand, I wonder if that is any different than simply leaving BIAB up in a window on my second monitor.

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Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.

This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245

The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option

Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!

Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!

For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.

Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.

Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

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