PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production How to Get Better Sound Quality from BIAB from Midi Styles

The sound quality of the midi styles coming out of the BIAB (2019) seems really poor to me. The instruments sound muddy and distorted. Tonight I tried an experiment and exported the midi from BIAB and dragged it into my DAW, where it sounded much better, without making any changes in the DAW.

My computer is a relatively new Windows 10 system, fairly high powered. I am using a Scarlett 6i6 interface and sound in every other program sounds fine on my monitor speakers. BIAB is set up to put Audio out through the Scarlett interface.

So I am wondering if there is something I can set in BIAB to get better instrument sound quality? Or do I have to buy something extra? Yes, I know that RealTracks styles exist, but I need to stay in Midi so I can edit later.

I would appreciate any help or at least a direction to investigate.

Thanks
Glenn

PG Music has a "MIDI In a Nutshell" Tutorial that addresses this issues better than I can:

https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_midi2.htm

The important point is that MIDI itself has no sound, so poor MIDI sound quality is a function of the synthesizer it is played through. Chances are that your DAW has a better quality synth than whatever you're playing BIAB through.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Bruce

Welcome.

Yes, MIDI is only instructions and the quality of sound depends completely on the MIDI synth you use. It can be hardware or software. The one built into computers and used by default in Windows is as bad as it gets.

This web page on the PG Music site is outdated by ten years but it will give you a very good start to understanding the possibilities. Go here: https://www.pgmusic.com/dare-to-compare.htm

Hi Glenn and welcome,

I use BiaB MIDI almost exclusively. The GM MIDI sound source that comes with BiaB is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sound quality IMHO. A step up is the included sforzando. It uses the SFZ format. That is the same format as a number of entry level MIDI sound sources like Garritan's and Aria products. These are good sounding instruments, plus some are free.

At the same level are Soundfonts (SF2). There are a number of free SF2s available as well as free VSTis to run them like the

TX16Wx: https://www.tx16wx.com/

The next and biggest step up to great sounding MIDI are expensive programs like Kontakt and SampleTank:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6/

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletank3/

Both have sales occasionally so wait for one if you can or want.

However both have free players that you can use:

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/sampletankcs/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/free-download/

I use the full version of Kontakt. The free Kontakt player is only a player, thus you can not manipulate the sounds other than what GUI allows. Also one must be careful as some sounds are only for the full version, but there are a lot of sounds for the player. The full version will play both. I like Kontakt as there are a ton of third party sounds for it, some are free and some very expensive.

Another great sounding program is EastWest Play:

http://www.soundsonline.com/

This has great sounds but it is also very expensive, more so the the above mentioned programs.

The rule of thumb when it comes to MIDI is the more you spend the better the sound BUT if you have a good working of MIDI CCs, pitch bend, etc, you can get some very good sounds out of SF2s and SFZs. They are not as good as the others that I mentioned but they can be OK.

Good luck.

Mario has given a great overview of software. I’m a composer preparing demos, so for the MIDI melodies in BIAB I don’t want to spend a lot of time and I use a hardware MIDI synth. I have Roland’s best, but any Roland synth uses many of the same basic sounds. The link I gave you included demos for the SD-20. I had one. I’ve since moved up but the SD-20 gives a pretty good sample of what any Roland synth sound like.

I really appreciate the information you all have provided. Some of it I already knew, but some was a revelation...I have been fighting with BIAB for years, giving up on it more than using it, and I obviously should have come to this forum sooner.

The Dare to Compare chart was really helpful...I had no idea that was there.

Mario and others, thank you for the great replies. I do understand that MIDI is just data and something has to "play it." I just need some help navigating the options. I would love to have a quick partial cheap solution (ready yesterday) and then a more expensive well-researched very good solution.

Let me be clearer on what I need. I don't want to tinker with the sounds much. I simply want a decent sounding package for composing and singing against. I just don't want to be distracted by bad sound. I am just writing songs and singing standards and doing some vocal improvisation against chord patterns.

On the cheap quick side, I fussed around some with an app called sforzando from Plogue which is on my system, and I do have an sf2 file from another program, with general MIDI instruments, but I don't know how to put it all together. I remember that these sounds are tolerable, not great, and so if it is simple, I would like to install it, if someone can point me to the way to include this in BIAB. I see now in re-reading your post that Soundfonts and Sforzando are two different approaches. Sigh. I did download and install the TX16Wx product; I think it installed a VST, but again, that looks like it is designed for tinkering and shaping the sounds.

So now for my revelation. I do use the Kontakt player with my DAW, but I have never fully grasped that whole world of products that go into it. Did I understand you correctly that libraries of sounds used in Kontakt can somehow be accessed through BIAB? By some driver or something that sends the MIDI to the Kontakt player? Everything I have ever looked at that goes with Kontakt is some kind of very specialized library, strings or horns for example. Is there a basic set of instruments that comes with the player or full version and actually sounds good? I looked at the Kontakt 6 demo just now; it looks like a bunch of specialized sampled instruments (Hybrid Keys, Analog Dreams, etc)...when I used it in my DAW, it was just with a horn package I bought. I currently have the Kontakt 5 player.

I guess SampleTank is the same issue. When I look at it, there are thousands of specialized instruments. I am not sure how this gives me a simple decent sounding jazz quartet or piano ballad to compose with in BIAB. (I do use VSTs inside of my DAW; I just didn't think BIAB supported VSTs.

So that leads me to hardware. Suppose I want to spend some money to just get fine sounds...something that will hook up easily to BIAB and my Scarlett interface and give me quality sound. Something portable and small, I suppose, easy to travel with. Tell me how to spend my money (sorry, for my manners...Please tell me!).

Thanks for any continued help.

Glenn

Glen what DAW are you using?

Are you doing your MIDI editing in BiaB or your DAW?

If you are looking for a GM sound set that sounds as good as the individual sounds of Kontakt, Sampletank, etc, forget about it. Some of those individual sounds are as large as an entire GM set, memory wise.

Yes you can use Kontakt in BiaB. However I do not use it that way. I take BiaB MIDI and drag and drop it into my DAW Studio One Pro. There is where I add my sounds and do my MIDI editing. This makes more sense to me but others may not agree.

Either way for the best MIDI sounds you will have to learn how to assign each BiaB MIDI track to an individual sound source regardless if you do it in BiaB or your DAW. The same is true if you are using hardware that does not have a GM set.

The TX16Wx can be used as a player only. That is how I use it when on occasion I need a SF2 sound, which for me is when I need a GM drum kit. I rarely need such a kit but if/when I do the TX16Wx is my go to SF2 player. There are others available though.

There are also a large number of free VSTis. Some of them are very good.

Let us know which DAW you are using and we can be more helpful.

{edit} - I forgot to mention that SF2s can be used in Sforzando. It will convert them to SFZ files.

If you decide to use hardware, many here like the Ketron offerings. I don’t know if they are still available. I assume you use a laptop and want to travel with it. This is a decent argument for hardware, because any software sound library is going to require a lot of disk space.

Wow! Matt Finley and Mario D, thanks for an education well beyond my simplistic answer to Tiger's question. I'm on a Mac, where I think the default system general midi synth is better than it is on Windows. But if I want better sounds or the ability to play around with sounds more, I drag and drop midi from BIAB into Logic.

On Windows, I am using Mixcraft, it seems to do everything I want. But I am agnostic and have tried others. On my iPad, I am using Cubasis, which is surprisingly good for playing with loops and developing ideas. I also own a Korg PA4x and sometimes develop ideas playing on the keyboard...my keyboard skills are so so, but I can chord and develop ideas. I was a businessman for 50 years, only recently come back to music. I am 71, a musician since I retired from business. I didn't know you could edit MIDI in BIAB! I only understand the basics of BIAB: load a song, or create chords for a song, pick a style to go with it, swear at the sound of the instruments, sigh a lot. When I want to edit, I go to Mixcraft.
No, not expecting that miracle. Those libraries are for finished production work. I am mostly a hobbyist, singer and wannabe songwriter. Just wanting something better than default GM sound on Windows. I am really looking for the best way to develop song ideas, where the sound I am listening to is not distracting me with its cheesiness. Korg sounds are beautiful, Mixcraft sounds are generally good with the included instruments, Cubasis sounds are decent for what I am using them for, but BIAB sounds are a distraction. BIAB looks like it would be a good platform for developing song ideas if I could be listening to better quality instruments. Also, I am practising singing standards, and want a better sounding band!

I do change the instruments in BIAB, using a dropdown in the Mixer window, when an instrument is particularly bothering me. Tenor sax sounds awful, but no substitute for it in the horns that I could find. Acoustic piano is not great, so I switch to one of the electrics. Sometimes I find something better, but it wastes time and breaks me away from the creative process.

I have to set this aside because I don't understand at all how this integrates into BIAB. How do you tell BIAB to not use the standard Windows MIDI?

Thanks for all the great help!

Right now I travel with an iPad, and soon an iPad Pro. I might go to a laptop if I needed to. As for the Ketron, it almost doesn't seem to be for sale in the channels here in the USA. All the references I see look like they are many years old. I will post separately here to see if anyone can steer me.

What Roland product are you using? I want to there site, trying to see what their current product is, but everything I saw that looked like a midi module (Roland Sound Canvas) was discontinued.

Thanks for the help.

So ... first off, Welcome to the world of PG music and Band in a Box.

This is the thing....as others have said, the sound you get from midi is totally a product of the synth you have and the patches or samples it plays. General midi stuff sounds bad when you have worked with the better samplers. I only use sampled sounds now on the rare occasions I use Midi.

I tend to only use midi for drums, piano, and bass. Those have relatively decent sounding samples.

So in BB, depending on the version you bought, you should have a number of REAL TRACKS for various instruments. I would suggest learning how to use those. I tend to almost exclusively use RT's in my music. Only if I need a custom part that BB will not give me, will I use midi. I also never use midi for things like guitar since it's really hard to get a convincing guitar from midi. RT's are excellent but since I play guitar, I often do my own guitars.


To see what I'm taking about..... click the link below to listen to a few things I am doing using RT's.

Hope this helps.

Hi Glen,

Correct me if I am wrong but you are a novice at this right?

If so here is what I would do. Forget about changing sounds in BiaB as you are working with the same low end GM sounds. Drag and drop the BiaB MIDI tracks to Mixcraft and learn how to assign your Kontakt player to each and every track. For now add a different Kontakt player to each track. Then assign different sounds to each track via the player. It isn't that hard. If you are having difficulties let me know and I will DL the Mixcraft demo and try it myself; or maybe some here who uses Mixcraft can help.

Once you learn how to add the player to each track the same process is used for adding any VSTi. There are a good number of excellent sounding VSTis, some free, some very expensive, and many in between.

After you master that then we can talk about adding your Korg sounds to BiaB MIDI tracks.

Mario makes a good point that you can use BIAB to develop a song, then move it into Mixcraft to enhance the sound.

You asked what I have for a hardware MIDI synth. Many of us have that info in our forum signature (the info below this post). You’ll see mine is a Roland Integra-7.

Computer Knowledge: Expert, Musician: Amateur, BIAB knowledge: Beginner +, DAW Knowledge: Intermediate.
I can do this and did it this afternoon. I looked at the factory instruments, and there is a small selection of instruments, and they do sound better. BUT I want to go back to my original question. I don't want to leave BIAB until the last minute. I want to do the song prototyping development as long as possible in BIAB. Then I will move to the DAW.

Perhaps a different example will make it clearer. Today I was working on practicing singing a song. I had a BIAB version of the song ready with chords, and I found a decent style. But I would have liked the "band" to have better sound! I didn't want to move to move to the DAW, because then I lose the view of the song in Chords and Measure.

So, is there any way to make BIAB sound better? Other than a hardware synth.

Glenn

Coyote Forte is a decent sounding relatively inexpensive software GM MIDI synth. One downside: you have to run the 32-bit version of BIAB. As far as I know, you won't lose anything.

https://www.pgmusic.com/coyotefortedxi.htm

You've already heard the demos on Dare to Compare.

Glenn, this may work for you. Although I do not have to do this as using Pipline's utility I can bring the chords into Studio One Pro I just experimented and found that this works, at least for me.

Get your BiaB song as you want using he included GM. Using the drag and drop bring the tracks into your DAW and assign your sounds to those tracks. Now in your DAW open the BiaB VSTi and load your song into it. Now you can see your chord sheet and it will follow your DAW, thus you can see what measure you are on and what chord is assigned to that measure. The nice thing is that the BiaB VSTi is scalable so you can make it a large as your monitor if you wish. Using this method you can use the better sounds in your DAW, record your vocals in your DAW, while you view the BiaB measure and chords.

Hi, dragging and dropping is nice, but, since BIAB gives you the chords and all, the melody... I also prefer to use band in a box directly.

My setup for playing and practicing is:
*download loopbe, freely available,
*disable vst in band in a box,
*in midi options disable all send messages (patch messages, panning...)
*in preferences-overrides, disable all sends
*assign midi out to loopbe
*start Kontakt, choose loopbe midi in
*pick the correct channels for each instrument.

Then: enjoy the great sounds of Kontakt libraries. If you wish, you can use UVI or other vsts, even synthfont as your preferred synth.

If I want to record, I use no midi out and load Kontakt as a VST using Default synth and loading my patches in Kontakt
If you disable all sends it keeps your setup intact (if you always use the same drum n bass n piano

You can save songs with vst patches if you switch instruments.

Hope this helps you

Mario, tell me how Pipeline works...I don't really know Studio One, but anything that brings chords into a DAW sounds interesting. I had a starter copy of Studio One once, but didn't see a major advantage over Mixcraft.

Yes, interesting, thank you. I really haven't given the BIAB VST a fair trial...since on a track, in my DAW, it has the same GM sounds. Offhand, I wonder if that is any different than simply leaving BIAB up in a window on my second monitor.

This is really interesting...so you are running Kontakt standalone to play back music from within BIAB, and then using Kotakt as a VST within BIAB for recording? None of this with a DAW? (I am trying to get the overall picture clear before diving into the details)

Glenn

Matt, I tried that out this afternoon...spent most of the time figuring out how it worked in BIAB. Much better sound. I really appreciate you nudging me in that direction. I think that takes care of the short term problem, using the 32-bit software.

Matt, with the Integra 7, are you using this in a performance environment, or directly for composition, or integrated with a DAW?

Thanks again for the help.

Glenn

I’m not a keyboard player so I do not use it in performance. I use it in BIAB and a DAW, plus my music notation programs.

I love the convenience of a hardware MIDI synth (except for rendering, which requires playback in real time). But my Roland unit is old, and overkill. If I had to start over, I would go the software route.

Hey Glenn,

I do exactly what you derived.
*Playing? Using Kontakt as standalone by means of loopbe.
*Recording: kontakt as default synth as vst in Biab

It’s the least troublesome way for me, without much hassle. And it works.

There are such nice libraries around the web. I don’t buy the real expensive ones, but some are worth their weight in gold. For acoustic drums the Abbey Road drums must be the most beautiful and flexible ones around. And you can pick an instrument for every drum note, so you have flexible mapping.

Have fun playing.

Mario, I am seeing ads for the whole EastWest library, the Composer Cloud X, for $199/year.



Is this the library you are talking about? I realize you don't own anything when you do this, but do you think this is a good price? It seems so to me.

Glenn

I read that add as $199 is the introductory one year price. The real price is $360 a year.

As I say previously "If so here is what I would do. Forget about changing sounds in BiaB as you are working with the same low end GM sounds. Drag and drop the BiaB MIDI tracks to Mixcraft and learn how to assign your Kontakt player to each and every track. For now add a different Kontakt player to each track. Then assign different sounds to each track via the player. It isn't that hard. If you are having difficulties let me know and I will DL the Mixcraft demo and try it myself; or maybe some here who uses Mixcraft can help."

I would do this prior to purchasing anything else. Once you get this concept down the explore other avenues. Personally for you I think Kontakt is a much better purchase then EastWest; but wait for the full Kontakt to go on sale if you want/need it for some presets. Kontakt has a lot of third party presets available, even for the player. This should satisfy your needs for many years, at least it has mine. Kontakt, a few specialized VSTis, and a number of free VSTis are my main MIDI sound sources. I do have EastWest's Symphonic Choirs that I occasionally use but now Kontakt has some choirs that are as good as if not better now. YMMV

Good to know, I missed that.

I don't want you to think I ignored you. I heard you and I tried it with the Kontakt 5 player. Having a Kontakt player open on each track is very awkward; the windows won't minimize. I have a relatively new system built by a tech guy, solid-state drives, and loading and unloading instruments to try them out got very slow. It worked, but you had to be patient.

Instrument quality was very good on what I loaded, but the factory instrument selection is sparse. No piano for instance, no drum kit with brushes, and for drums it looked like you were supposed to split the track, with each drum part on a separate track. At any rate, standard mapping didn't work.

Perhaps you can DM me the name of those free quality VSTs that you like. I only mentioned EastWest because you mentioned it and I saw the ad.

I am just moving over a project from BIAB with bass, drums, piano, strings and French Horn. I can use the Chris Hein Session Horns package and substitute something for the French Horns, as I don't have any orchestral stuff. I could use some strings;) if you have any ideas.

I am also going to look at migrating to Studio One, when I finish this project and have some time to investigate. There are some high-end features in the Pro version that look appealing.

Thanks for your help.

Glenn

re:Mixcraft

Maybe I misunderstood your concern with respect to Mixcraft and Kontakt or other VSTi GUIs, if so ignore my little "how to:"

Load Kontakt on the track, pick sound/instrument (set other desired parameters as well, channel, port, reverb, ...) then close it for that track if its in your visual road. But Note, that DOES NOT delete or unload Kontakt on that track, it just closes the Kontakt GUI for that track.

If you need to, or want, to see the Kontakt GUI (any VSTi GUI) on a track just right click on the little keyboard Icon on the far left of track screen.

Good Luck
Larry

Larry has shown you how to use Kontakt in Mixcraft. That process is the same as in Studio One. The fastest way to load sounds into Kontakt is to have two drives. One drive to hold you programs like your DAW, Kontakt, etc and the other for the presets/sounds.If Kontakt or any other program that loads presets and the presets are on one drive the process can be slowed down. I have my presets on a HD but I'm saving for a SSD. My programs are on a SSD. Also how much ram do you have? Programs like Kontakt can require a lot of ram.



I don't know what comes with the player as far as sounds. I'm sure it is just a sampling of what is available in the full version. You can split the drum track into individual tracks but you will need a Kontakt on each track, so lets just forget about that for now. My full version of Kontakt drums does use the standard GM drum mapping so I would expect the player to have the same.



Here are some free VSTis. Just google free VSTi to find more"
https://techraver.com/free-drum-vst-plugins/

https://thehomerecordings.com/free-orchestral-vst/

https://soundtips.net/piano-vst/

Note that I do not have any experience with many of these VSTis




Why change DAWs if you are happy with Mixcraft?

Just my 50 cents here...

There is an older Kontakt library that is little known, but has a very decent sound and contains all the bread and butter sounds you need. Vir2.com has the vi.one.

It is an older library, but still, a hefty 21 gb of samples. Pianos, basses are very good, the drums are really good. In comparison to the Kontakt factory library or JABB3 from Garritan, it is way better.

If you like trumpets and saxophones, vi.one has got some nice samples right there.

Following this discussion, I realized why I chose to play guitar and piano with band in a box, using only the midi bass and drums. I only pick styles with acoustic bass and brush drums, or I tweaked styles and made my own.

This way I can “jukebox” a whole song folder (standards, modern jazz...) without once having to change instruments. I can play a whole evening without any hassle or loading or unloading samples. Is nice! This way I have fun playing, like with a band. wasn’t that the whole purpose of Band in a Box?

Have fun playing.

Larry, thanks, I did know that and shouldn't have complained, or just complained more clearly . I was having trouble getting the Kontakt tracks to play. I could play from my Midi keyboard to the Kontakt instrument on any track, but when I pressed Play, for the track or the piece, it wasn't playing the MIDI track...just silence. So I was leaving the Kontakt windows open, going back and forth, trying things...

The problem was solved by setting the Kontakt player to "Omni", rather than a particular channel. I am not sure where in Mixcraft it specifies the channel/port it is sending info to the Kontakt player. It apparently isn't using the Port A/Channel 1 that seems to be the Kontakt default. (The input channel for MIDI devices is right there on the track, and I have that set to All.)

At some point, I will have to figure out how Mixcraft uses channels/ports to talk to the Player, but for right now I have put that aside in favour of actually working on music. Let me know if you know anything about that setting.

Thanks again!
Glenn

Hi Glen,

A couple of things, one, as Dzjang indicated the vi.one is a good sounding set and I think it is included in one of the lists I sent. How it sounds when compared to other sound sets is a personal thing.

If Kontakt works in Omni but not in Port A/Channel 1 then your MIDI keyboard controller is not set to channel 1. Check your keyboard manual, set the output to channel 1, and all will be fine.

After loading Kontakt on the track, keys pressed on the keyboard played in Kontakt, so I think the midi keyboard is not the problem. It was when I played a clip of midi notes from the DAW (an imported clip) that nothing sounded in Kontakt.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Glenn

Then make sure that your DAW's MIDI track output is set to channel one. For any MIDI VSTi to sound, either from a keyboard or a MIDI track, the channels must match.

You probably should watch this video all the way through

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zFecOaD4CU

Forget that he's using Ableton - MIDI is MIDI and a DAW is (usually) a DAW well that's essentially true. Usually just things like controls in different places and GUI's laid out differently (e.g., US cars with controls on left versus the backwards British cars with controls on right because they drive on wrong side of the "track" again to all my FIVE EYES friends )

Larry

Hi Glenn,

Welcome to the forum and to Band-in-a-Box. There are two midi sounds you may want to consider. First is the TTS-1 virtual sound module from Cakewalk by BandLab and second is the Timbres Of Heaven virtual instruments. Both have the advantages of sounding good and are available for free.

The TTS-1 is 100percent general midi compatible so whatever midi instrument Band-in-a-Box selects the sound module will playback. The sound module can playback up to 16 instruments at the same time. The instruments sound about as good, or a little better, than the Coyote Forte instruments. TTS-1 was one of the sound modules used in the PG Music comparison. +++ HERE +++ is a recommendation from PG Music's leader, Peter Gannon. The downsides are only the 64 bit TTS-1 is available and you must install the free Windows DAW, Cakewalk by BandLab. Another plus is you also receive the Studio Instruments VST suite of strings, electric piano, electric bass and drums.

+++ Timbres Of Heaven +++ is a gm compatible Soundfont. The Soundfont is a large (about 256 MB) set of instrument patches that can be loaded and played in any Soundfont sound module including Sforzando and Synthfont. The Soundfont was developed by Don Allen to provide high quality playback of midi Karaoke and gaming files.

Thanks for this it might be just what I need. At US$99 it seems a fair price. I’m halfway through the download. This should keep me busy in confinement.

Thanks and keep well all

Tony

Tony, let us know how you like it. I am very interested, but don't want to get distracted while trying to finish a project right now. Would appreciate your thoughts after using it a bit.

Glenn

Well, there are many people looking for better ways to handle MIDI instruments. Kontakt is fairly expensive. Kontakt Player is free but it is very much more restrictive and often good Kontakt Libraries cannot be used with Kontakt Player or are more expensive than the full Kontakt version.

A couple of weeks ago I mentioned some free libraries for Sforzando that were ok but really require a little More understanding to work effectively. (Look up VSCO2 They have some ok free SFZ libraries that can be used in Sforzando)

Ok so back to VI.ONE. It took a little while for me to get it installed and registered (had I followed the instructions it would have been seconds). There are an unbelievable amount of different Sounds available. Some are really good. I decided to change a MIDI song that I did years ago using TTS1 to use Kontakt and the VI.ONE libraries. Some bits were better others maybe not so but I still need to do more playing.

Am I disappointed I spent the US$99 absolutely not. This is giving me a heap of new choices.

There you go, long winded but that is what I found going through the process. (Being basically confined to my unit has given me even more time than usual).


Keep well all

Tony

Tony, I appreciate you taking the time to let us know your initial reaction. I will try to follow the instructions .

I also have more time on my hands than usual!

Glenn

Anyone Interested,

I am writing this note for myself, as well as for anyone else interested. I now understand why Kontakt sometimes didn't play BIAB midi files exported into my DAW.

When BIAB exports a MIDI file from a project (a multitrack .MID file), each track is set to a different channel. For example, Piano on channel 3, Bass on channel 2, etc.

This is specified for each note; Each note in each track of the Midi file has a channel specified in properties. I should have realized this, but I kept looking for a setting in the DAW. Now I know I have to look at the properties of the notes for each track of the midi file, and see what Channel they are on. Once I do that, I set the correct channel in Kontakt and everything works fine.

This is why the Omni setting in Kontakt worked, because it was looking on all channels.

Thanks to everyone who gave input on this problem.

Glenn

Welcome to MIDI!

Pros: Very flexible!
Cons: Very Flexible!

Jim, thank you for the welcome and the information. I decided to start by looking at Timbres of Heaven. I downloaded it, and I tried dragging it into Szforando, which seems to be included with BIAB. It says to drag a file in and I did that, but this is a huge file, and it seems to want me to reset it for each instrument...

Anyway, you can see I am confused. Can someone help me understand how to load a Soundfont like Timbres of Heaven into BIAB once, or once per song, and then just pick the instruments. I tried fooling with the default synth, but that didn't seem to do what I want either. I just want to set up this Soundfont inside BIAB so I can easily try out and set the various instruments.

Thanks for any help with this.

Glenn

Glen, maybe one of this will help:

https://hiphopmakers.com/best-free-soundfont-players-vst-plugin

On the rare occasion I use a soundfont I use the free TX16Wx. Note that I only use it in my DAW but it should work in BiaB. But other players may better meet your needs.

Possible solution: BIAB includes Real Band. Make your track. Arranged how you want it. Save it as a midi.

Open the midi in Real Band. Set up RB so it uses a quality sound font. One of the best out there is Timbres Of Heaven. Freely distributed through our midi forum. Created by one of our engineer members.

Open the CHORDS window. BINGO!

Harpmeister, thanks for the idea. I have literally only looked once at Real Band...I didn't "get it" and so forgot about it. But that was many years ago. I am going to have to take a look at it, as you described above.

Thanks again,

Glenn

Hi, I have the same problem as Glenn, I've been researching how to have better midi sound in biab for some time.
I have the free version of the kontakt and I hesitate to buy the full version because I see that it does not come with too many instruments, would I have to buy or search for banks of instruments later? I use biab for jazz standards.

I also appreciate the sampletank, it seems easier and brings more instruments from the factory.

I am very confused now and I have downloaded sounds of heaven but I don't know how it installs and how I can choose it in biab.

Any help in this regard will be welcome

Kontakt does come with a full library. I choose Kontakt as there are many third party presets either to purchase or for free. Sampletank is also a good MIDI sound source. I think that you would be happy with either program.

[quote=Tolailama
I am very confused now and I have downloaded sounds of heaven but I don't know how it installs and how I can choose it in biab.

Any help in this regard will be welcome [/quote]

Timbres Of Heaven is a soundfont (SF2) and you will need a soundfont player. There are a number of them, some free and some not free. I use the free TX16Wx sampler when I occasionally use SF2s. https://www.tx16wx.com/

Here is a list of some other SF2 players:
http://www.synthfont.com/Downloads.html

I do not use any of the above in BiaB. I use them in a DAW. You can have more control and tracks in a DAW. If you are using a PC then you have RealBand and that is an excellent place to start. Many here use it as their only DAW.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Thanks Mario, I have used the vstsynthfont64 that comes in biab and I have managed to load the sounds of heaven, in addition to the library that is included. This improves the above and is an important first step for me.

Now I'm going to keep looking and testing sf2 and testing for a while.

It is easy to use vstsynthfont64 and does not require complicated settings. Kontakt player is too complicated for me, I don't know how to make the midi instruments play by default, I'm sure I'll try again later and ask experts like you in this forum, thank you very much.

There are a number of SF2s available so be sure to check them out. Also there are SF2 editors out there so you can create your own SF2 presets:

https://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Other-AUDIO-Tools/Viena.shtml

Also any non GM VSTi like Kontakt and Sampletank will not set your sounds by default. You have to assign a patch (sound) to each BiaB track. It sounds like that and the SF2 editor should wait until you have a firm understanding of implementing things like them, but I might be wrong.

Good luck and have fun.

thanks Mario, that information is important

I'm looking through the garritan jazz & bigband 3 library and I was wondering the same, if that library is gm and it would assign me the default instruments or would I have to assign them on each midi track just like in kontakt or sampletank

Could someone using this product tell me about that? I couldn't find this answer in the garritan web ....I would be very grateful

What would be really great is to be able to point tracks to a midi channel in BIAB and have this extended to plugins. That way one could use Kontakt or similar as designed rather than having to implement the same VST multiple times. This is the way most good applications work. Even stuff such as AmpleSound guitars do not need the full application loaded. They share parts thus saving a lot of memory and makes things more efficient.

My thoughts

Tony

What Tony and Mario said...

I send BIAB to loopbe midi out and have Kontakt running as a standalone with loopbe as midi input. Works fine for all the different channels. I totally dismiss GM or patch, volume or panning. In the preferences, I uncheck all the “send midi” options in “overrides” as well as in Midi options.

As far as JABB3 goes: drums are not totally GM, especially the brushes aren’t. And the sounds are no longer convincing to my ear... outdated software, samples. There is much better material out there. Doesn’t respond to GM bank or patch changes either.

I recently bought the V3sound Sonority XXL. I contacted the company cause the Brush drums are not completely GM. They made me a custom version with “correct” brush layout for the same price as a regular one and the sounds, though not comparable to more expensive Kontakt libraries, are surprisingly good. Far better than any actual keyboard below 1000$, including the PSR keyboards. It is GM and responds to all GM commands.

This is an excellent thread, and I've picked up quite a few tips here including experimenting with Kontakt and some of their free libraries and instruments, which I set up fairly easily yesterday, and does some nice things. At the risk of making this thread too sprawling, here are some tidbits on what I've tried to far that which has worked for me. Note that I'm working primarily in BIAB at this point, and not exporting into DAW's and all that fancy stuff (yet). I'll start with SoundFonts.

SoundFonts - These can produce pretty decent sounds and many are available for free but the technology is old and decent players are in limited supply.

#A few sources that I've used for SoundFonts which I've liked:

*Don Allen's Soundfonts (Timbres of Heaven)
http://midkar.com/soundfonts/index.html

*Essential Keys - Free SoundFonts - John Nebauer is the site owner
https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
- The Yamaha C5 Salamander is pretty impressive

*Another source
http://soundfonts.darkesword.com/

*GoldMidiSF2 - Some free ones, payment required for some of the better/bigger packages.
https://www.goldmidisf2.com/megapro-studio-soundfonts/
- The mega packages and Pro versions sound pretty impressive but are not free
- Some decent packages of free SoundFonts
- They offer a very large collection of a few GB of SoundFonts which you can request but they require a donation for it
- Site is in Italian but my browser let me read it in English (YMMV)


#SoundFont Players

There seems to be a lack of decent VST-based SoundFont players, at least ones that are current and supported. The ones that I've found most useful and which work in BIAB 2020 (and I have only tried a few) are:

*Sforzando (Included with BIAB)
*VSTSynthFont64
*Phenome

In each case there are limitations and gotchas:

*Sforzando (Included with BIAB)
- Requires conversion to Aria format to use
- Aria conversion is very easy - just drag and drop your SF2 or SFZ
- Conversion has worked very well for the many soundfonts that I've tried, but managing multiple sets with large collections becomes quite tedious and complex.

*VSTSynthFont64
- Worked with most SoundFonts that I tried
- Interface is a bit bland and not easy to navigate
- Saving your customized SoundFont settings with BIAB projects is a bit cumbersome

*Phenome v1.7
- Requires JBridge since it is only available as a 32 bit VST
- Only works reliable (for me) if I use the option to split the GUI out using the JBridge advanced settings
- Has a fantastic feature set and numerous controls that are not present in the two above.
- Figuring out how to select a SoundFont, working with long names is tricky, and saving your settings such as the Reverb, attack, etc.) and with your project is tricky - still working that out.
- When it works, it can produce quite impressive results.

If you want more info about how I've set up and got some of these working in BIAB, I'll be glad to provide more info. Again, keep in mind that I'm on the novice end in BIAB, so if you're really serious about getting the most out of your setup, I would go with the tips and advice already provided on the more sophisticated setups. That will serve you better if you goal is to create high quality projects.

DZjang, I am a beginner but I agree with you; there are incredible kontakt sounds! But they are terribly expensive too! I do not know how many factory instruments has included kontakt 6 has and the quality.

EdZ314,oau !this Megapro studio sounds its really cool !!I think it would be perfect for biab,at least for a time.. and at an affordable price..
I'm thinking of buying it ... do you have that Library?? what is your opinion??

When it comes to expensive Kontakt instruments I can understand why the cost. By the time samples are made and set correctly then put into Kontakt and scripts written. Most good Kontakt libraries have many articulations that need to be set correctly. That all takes incredible resources.

However, if you have a need it can be fun to create your own instruments.

For example, I needed a flute for a part and didn’t have a suitable one. I downloaded a free sample of a nice flute and spread it across the key range I wanted. Added a flexible start point for the sample to get breath or not based on velocity. Added vibrato based on note length also a note release taken from the end of the sample. It sounds good for my use. Total cost zero dollars. Time to set it up about 15 minutes not including finding the sample (but I know where to find some now).

Years ago I set up my Telecaster in Dimension Pro mainly as an exercise in learn SFZ. I was ok but I would like it better. I pulled the samples (not complete) into Kontakt. Then as a scripting exercise setup a simulated round robin (that way it sounds like many more samples, pressing the same note multiple times results in different samples being played). Set up some effects. Is it any good. Well for some stuff I like it more than bought guitars (AmpleSound or Kontakt) I own. But it does not have all the articulations of the pro made stuff.

There are ways to get what you want if you are prepared to put the effort in. A real good example of that is Pipeline who sees a need then creates something to fill the need. From my perspective Pipeline gets more joy out of the fixes made than actually using them. It is satisfying to fill a need.

My opinion Tony.

The Kontakt 6 library is quite good, the MegaPro not so, I think. I had a collection of soundfonts from that company and it is largely the same stuff as you find in Ed Z’s post.

There is the Vi.One from Vir2 instruments, that is quite capable. Good sounds and fx, not too expensive.

Recently I downloaded the bandlab/cakewalk free DAW. If you use a virtual midi cable like loopbe, as BIAB output and loopbe as the cakewalk input, you have access to the sounds inside cakewalk. They are pretty good. Not Kontakt 6, maybe, but decent.

In Kontakt 6 you have all the good bread and butter sounds, it doesn’t respond to GM patch changes, though. And the drum kits. There is a brush kit but you have to go inside kontakt and move some samples around to get it to work properly.

I reviewed some soundfonts...

For drums if you are using Cakewalk you might try creating a drum map to map GM to the Kontakt drum kit. That should do the conversion for you. You can have a drum come in on one note and go out on another. That way once it’s set up it is an easy matter to point to it. See a Mike Enjo videos
https://youtu.be/usnsji1iMTM

https://youtu.be/sIquUl-7NfE

Tony

@Teunis: great idea, thx

@Tolailama - Regaarding the MegaPro Studio SoundFonts, I don't have enough experience with them yet to give a detailed recommendation. What I can say is that some of the SoundFonts are decent, and others, very "MIDI" sounding - artificial, tinny. My experience has been that with the cheap/free SoundFont collections (or VST's, etc.) it's usually a mixed bag - there's nothing in that price range that's going to provide good sounds for Guitar and Strings and Trumpets for example, but you might get one of them. So what I'm doing is picking and choosing the best sounds from each set.

So the best advice I can give is to listen to any samples that are available of the SoundFonts with a very critical ear and know that they have selected some of the best, and if possible try a free or smaller, cheaper package before going with a big purchase and see how you like it first, and don't be afraid to be picky - a lot of these SoundFonts sound OK at first but when you actually use them and listen to them repeatedly, you'll start to hear the flaws.

I fully agree with what others have posted - you will definitely have better sounds with the premium products like Native Instruments and the like, so before you lock yourself in, find out what you can be satisfied with. In general, cutting corners and sacrificing quality for $$ by buying cheap stuff needs to be carefully considered. I've regretted it a few times in my own experience. With the free stuff you're only spending time and effort.

@Dzjang - That's a pretty great video.

I was looking for something like that which would compare various soundfont packages, and could not find anything like it, but that was couple months ago before you created it. I notice you have some other videos which look pretty cool too. Thanks!

This is a great thread, really useful and constructive.

It is true what you say, I am meditating a lot and I have already made a decision about it. I will not spend money on things that will give me satisfaction in the short term. I think that the decision kontakt would be more accurate, maybe not right now but as you progress in this it will be of better use and with more possibilities.
I do not undo the sf2, some really very good but I think that as time goes by they will stay on the road.