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RealBand
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 429
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 429 |
I find that this feature is so powerful and useful in RB, but there appears to be very little information in the manual to help me use it in this application. The reference section is quite in-depth for most other features, but surprisingly silent on the generation of loops.
I tried introducing a guitar arpeggio that I already had and decided I needed to know a lot more about using them in RB.
The first problem I came across was the difficulty of working with the loops. For example:
1. RB assumes that all the ACID loops are stored in a directory structure rooted at the RealTracks folder of BB. This can be a nightmare to work with since I don't wish to copy my loops over to this structure.
2. Having copied my selection of loops into the RealTracks loop folder, I find there is no meaningful way of auditioning the loops prior using them on a track. Well, not in RB anyway. When I tried to get help by pressing the Help button, I was taken to the BIAB help for this feature. This did have a way of auditioning but it had to be on a specific BIAB track. I resorted to auditioning in Ableton to select suitable loops prior to copying these to the RealTracks loop folder. Mind you, having done that it was worth the messing about.
Now this might be entirely my fault because I have RTFM properly, but I have tried.
Any help would be great.
Thanks
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,129
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Band-in-a-Box and RealBand expects ANY audio file inside the bb/RealTracks/Loops folder to contain metadata like tempo, root key signature and beat information. The programs do not look for, or expect to find audio file meta data anywhere else.
One benefit of handling audio file metadata this way is the programs do not waste cpu resources looking for audio file metadata anytime an audio file is outside the loops folder. As much as people import and export audio consistently adding the look for metadata step could significantly impact program operation speed.
Another benefit of handling audio file metadata this way is RealBand users can create a loop from any selected audio inside the program. That is a HUGE feature not many programs can offer. Side note: Sony created the idea of audio files that contain meta data. In an Acidized audio file the metadata is stored inside the audio file. I believe PG Music sidesteps patent issues by creating two files, one that contains the normal audio data and a second file that contains the metadata. By designating a specific location for loops RealBand can be designed to first look for metadata inside the audio file and if metadata is not found then look for an external metadata file that is associated with the audio file.
I use the loop browser inside Cakewalk by BandLab to preview loops I suspect I may use in a PG Music song project. I created a folder named "temp" inside the loops folder and copy any loops I want into the temp folder. Every now and then I clean out the temp folder.
The Cakewalk by BandLab loop browser can navigate to any location on my hard drive but it has a very confusing way to navigate. So, I have found it is better to have a specific location to store loops.
It would be great in Cakewalk by BandLab to be able to designate a primary and secondary loop storage location. It would be nice if RealBand had primary and secondary loop storage locations but it does not. On one hand I think a loop browser would be a nice feature to add to RealBand but on the other hand there are already a lot of content "pickers".
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
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as for auditioning, maybe just generate a couple bars; should go quick and then CTRL+Z to undo and try another.
If you only do a couple bars it should go pretty quick and you'll get an idea what it sounds like.
Sorry, best idea I got given your description, as I don't use loops much.
.. well except RTs and RDs, if you want to be technical .. they could be considered intelligent 'loops' (by a very rough definition of loops being audio chunks aligned in a sequence over time/tempo, and yes, they can be pretty random chunks, but can also repeat).
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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RealBand
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 429
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2016
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Thank you Jim for outlining your process of auditioning and explaining the reasoning for the loops folder stored BIAB.
The process adopted by PG Music is really no different from many other software products. Ableton do exactly the same and for the same reasons. But they have a system allows navigation to ANY folder (in the form of a convenient browser)and can maintain multiple paths that are updated in the background and that would work in the same way for RB. What is so unremarkable about the RB approach though is not that you can only navigate to the loops folder in BB but the lack of ability to audition the loops from within RB itself when you get to the loop you want to try. But if I use the loops feature in BIAB then I CAN do just that. So BIAB can do it easily!
Rhrv says that he doesn't use the loops feature anyway but I'm sure he would if it was easier to use and there was some decent reference to it from the RB manual. RB is the only software I know that can really work well with loops given just a simple straightforward set of chords.
I really rely on this forum a lot to help me with this sort of stuff. I love RB but I do feel it is quite a neglected piece of software with regard to reference material and capability when compared to its sister product BIAB.
Tell me where in the RB manual it explains what you just mentioned to me about the auxiliary files that are created when you ACIDIZE some bars of WAV? I discovered those files myself by trial and error when I was attempting to use official ACID loops in RB. I couldn't understand how RB knew the details about the key and tempo of a WAV file when I looked at its reference.
For that matter, tell me where it covers any detail about the two features in the Render menu with regard to ACIDization? I found that information in this forum from knowledgeable members like yourself.
Now, as I always say on here, I may be me missing this information myself, I'm not the best at finding some of these details, and I don't want to be criticising unfairly. So if I am doing that then I apologise in advance and I've got my knife and fork ready to eat my slice of humble pie.
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2011
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No Jonel you're correct.
My post is based on an educated guess which means I maybe right, wrong or somewhere in between. Both Acidized loops and UserTracks use embedded metadata. The capability to use Acidized loops was introduced into PG Music products at the same time UserTracks were introduced (2014). When you create a UserTracks the metadata is contained in the SGU file and (optional) options text file that supports the audio file. In my tests no loops outside the loops folder are scanned for metadata.
I agree it would be nice to preview an Acidized loop prior to importing.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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RealBand
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1. RB assumes that all the ACID loops are stored in a directory structure rooted at the RealTracks folder of BB. This can be a nightmare to work with since I don't wish to copy my loops over to this structure. I remember doing all that in RealBand years ago.
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RealBand
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Joined: Jun 2005
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I'm not sure if you understood this point Jonel because it's really good. You do not ACIDIZE anything in Biab or RB. Just save ANY audio file, wav, mp3, whatever in the Loops folder. Biab handles the Adidization part automagically.
Also, many people confuse this as well. RB is not simply another version of Biab. RB used to be Power Tracks. PG managed to somehow graft a lot of Biab features into RB. I certainly can't give you a technical explanation for that but when RB needs those features it simply calls back to Biab for them. They're not really built into RB, they're sort of connected somehow.
And I 100% agree RB could be made so much better if it got some love but all that love has gone to the VST plugin.
Bob
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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RealBand
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Joined: Nov 2016
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Journeyman
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OP
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Bob, I agree, I'm not entirely sure I understand the process in RB. Are you really saying that simply saving a WAV file from RB into the into the BB loops folder will AcidIze it? Acidization always requires the tempo and root note of WAV, whether this is stored in a BB auxiliary file or within the WAV (in the case of Sony loops). I know that the two Render options in RB allow this data implicitly for one and manually for the other.
But my point was really about the paucity of reference material for this topic in the RB manual. The BIAB manual does go quite a bit further and provides some demos as well. In fact Acidization options in RB were only ever brought to my attention in this forum, quite probably by your good self.
If the loops folder used by RB allows files saved there to be automatically Acidized, I can assume that the tempo and root details are taken from the key and tempo of the RB project from which that WAV file was derived. But where in the PG Music reference material, BIAB or RB, could I find that information? I only discovered these little files when I was desperately trying to find out how RB could populate the loop form with key and tempo information when I knew that that particular wav file did NOT have any Acidization properties. I then realised that RB didn't use these properties and didn't care (same as Ableton)
I have a wide range of loops, many of these are commercially produced clips but they do not have any Root key or original tempo specified on the file name and their file properties indicate that they do not contain this information inside the clip itself. How does RB handle such a file when I have simply copied it to the BB loops folder?
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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