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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2019
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Background - I've been using BIAB for a couple years now, started with BIAB 2018 and upgraded, now on BIAB 2020 Build 722. It's been quite a smooth ride, with crashes and hangs here and there when I do certain things, and other odd idiosyncrasies, but I just ignore them unless they are egregious or block my work. I've just recently started encountering a consistent stuttering happening while using external MIDI input to play along with a song, or while recording from MIDI, but even sometimes just playing back a song which has some VST-based instruments.
I'm well aware of the many factors which can cause such a problem from the sound drivers all the way up to the VST instrument that I'm using which is outside of BIAB control, and I've done a lot of reading on this forum, so I know a few places to look and things to try, but before I start on a massive campaign to get to the bottom of this, I just wanted to toss it out there and see if anyone had any quick tips on what are the most likely candidates. I'm posting a list below, but I'd be very interested to see if anyone would use a different order, or there's something major that I've left out.
General outline of issue:
> Stuttering after playing for a few minutes, or a few repeats, very intermittent.
> Only occurs on certain songs, but may be due to choice of VST instrument plugins.
> Occurs more often when I play a lot of very fast, polyphonic notes in the MIDI thru
> Occurs more often when using resource intensive VST's like Native Instruments, or especially IK Multimedia Plugins, although I'm only using mostly free stuff so far.
Strategy:
> Try playing back the same song with different VST instruments (like the ones included in BIAB) on the Melody track.
> Try playing back the same song with the MIDI keyboard disconnected
> Try a restart of the PC and close out everythig except BIAB
> Try changing the tempo to a lower value - does it still stutter?
Items to check/reconfigure:
> Change buffer/latency on ASIO drivers (currently using ASIO4All)
> Possibly change audio drivers - I had the best success with ASIO so far
> Change sound card (currently using a USB attached sound card - some generic one)
Background:
> PC is an older Lenovo laptop - AMD A6-5200 2 GHZ - Quad Core, 8 GB RAM, Windows 10
> Upgraded internal HDD to SSD
> BIAB Runs from external SSD drive over USB 3.0
> PC does not show significant strain when stuttering occurs - CPU, disk, memory look within normal limits
Any tips/advice specific to this scenario would be appreciated. No need to repeat whats already been posted on this sort of thing, but if you have a recommended link, please throw it in.
I'm well versed in PC technology, so no limits there, but on MIDI/Audio tech, I'm mediocre, but learning. I do plan to post my results after I finish my investigation, whether successful or not.
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Hi. Very thorough problem statement. I wish all looked like yours. I'm a retired comp. sci. prof as well as a pro player.
Couple of reactions to start: My first deal with your questions. But if you want a BIAB tip, skip to the bottom.
In your first group, I would expect the problem would worsen with option #3, resource intensive VSTs. Also somewhat from your first option, after repeats, if you have limited RAM. I would have thought 8 GB was enough, though, unless the VSTs are sucking it up and you have other things running (one of your tests is to restart with only BIAB running; good idea).
MIDI normally presents almost no load to a system, especially the CPU, unless it's a huge VST playing it. And I've never heard of MIDI input causing problems except for a MIDI wind controller or some such that can overwhelm the input; if you have one of those, tell us because you can filter it.
About your computer, try running the free utility, Geekbench 5 and report your single-core score. I'm a bit puzzled by your CPU being only 2 GHz but it's a quad core. So I'm guessing this is around six years old? And run the free DPC Latency Checker, which will read 1000 ms too high but still works in Windows 10. Instructions on the site. This will make sure there are no other errant drivers.
About drivers, ASIO4ALL is not an ASIO driver. It is an MME driver made to substitute for ASIO, but it does not bypass the CPU as ASIO does so there is little point. If your sound card has an ASIO driver, absolutely try that, then adjust your ASIO buffers a bit slower by degree. Which 'generic' sound card is it? That might prove to be the better solution here, but let's hear what you have.
I like the idea of installing the program on the internal SSD (that's what I do) and running the RealTracks and RealDrums (that take up most of the space) from the external drive. You said your external drive is an SSD too - great - so you must have transferred everything from the PG Music-supplied drive?
BIAB things to try:
Does your song tempo match fairly closely to the style tempo and/or RealTracks recommended tempo range?
You've concentrated on MIDI questions, but does an offending song have RealTracks on it as well? If so, if you remove them, does it fix the problem? There are adjustments we can recommend if so. And you could also try Song Settings by Ctrl+N and check the box for This Song Has Playback Problems.
When all else fails, do Options, Return to Factory Settings, Most.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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My thoughts are that it's related to the "generic" soundcard and ASIO4ALL.
What exactly is the name of this generic card? In helping people through the years in the cakewalk forums, most of the stuttering issues were directly related to the sound card brand, the driver it used, and the settings for buffers and latency.
Stutters are often the result of the card not being able to process the data in real time and get it to the speakers on time. Other audio issues are also included in this same scenario.
If your card is some off brand, I'd suggest replacing it with a Focusrite or even a Presonus or M-Audio that meets your needs and runs NATIVE ASIO vs the A4A wrapper. I think that would be a viable solution. I don't know of many folks and none offhand that use a good brand name interface, ASIO, and have issues with pops, clicks, crops, and stutters.
The crazy thing is that an off brand car like yours can often seemingly work well for a period of time and then just start doing what yours is doing. Often, it was running right on the edge the whole time and then something happens in the software, maybe an update, or something else and it's enough to divert processing power to something else and the sound card suffers as a result. This generally doesn't occur with dedicated interfaces.
Of course.... I might be totally off base on this but I kinda think this is the problem you are experiencing and how it can be solved.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2019
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OP
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Thanks Matt, Herb - that's some great input. I'm going to try out a couple things this week and I'll report back with some more details that you requested.
Briefly - I have two soundcards in my PC - one is built in with an AMD Radeon HD8400 chipset (no longer supported) and the other is a cheapo Sabrent USB, but oddly enough I like the sound of the cheap one better. I did spend a bit of time yesterday looking for a sound card that had Native ASIO drivers, but they are pretty specialized and a bit pricey relative to my PC investment. I'm also considering trying out VoiceMeeter, since it was pointed out that can funnel audio through a virtual ASIO driver and do other fancy stuff, but I'll probably hold off on that until I've tweaked and further explored what I can do with my current setup.
For those who are of a strong Windows technical persuasion, I may do a deep dive into Perfmon and possibly some tracing to capture some of the metrics like the DPC latency, along with the suggested tools.
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OK. I'm more strongly leaning toward a better sound card (and only one) after reading your response. But let us know how the diagnostic tools work out.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Expert
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Expert
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does your hard disc 'thrash' when the stutter occurs? for some unknown reason i get hard disc activity sometimes that can cause the problem. and yes i have scannned for viruses! see if the disc activity light flashes when your pc is stuttering.
just a suggestion
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thrashing is a specific hard drive phenomenon when your free space falls too low. I don’t think it occurs on an SSD but that’s an interesting point to research.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I presume windows 10 pro? If on a laptop you might face too many USB drivers addressing the same controller chip.
You can remove old unused devices with USBdeview. Don't remove the mouse etc though!
Switch off powermanagement in all USB hubs (device manager) and DISABLE windows update with a tool to keep windows from switching it on again.
I bought an expensive 4 controller USB PCIe Sonnet card. Never regretted it: audio interface and external USB drives have their own controller chip, although USB 2.0 is supposed to handle audio OK up to some 30 channels at 96kHz.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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maybe i don't mean thrashing as such, but windows runs lots of things in the background that show up as hard disc activity. sometimes my virus scanner kicks in. flashing disc light rather than causing a stutter means things run a little slow and whilst the sound is ok, the cursor movement becomes jerky.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You mentioned Asio4all.., I know you tried upping the buffer. Did you try all the way to the right for testing?
One other thing that I do not believe was mentioned. Lenovo has a very persistent "thermal" feature, that would suppress your CPU (throttling), sometimes by A LOT! You might consider locating that in startup and disable it, at least for testing purposes. Windows 10 has it's own thermal protection, so it should not be critical. The process is called "Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution" in startup services..
What I found, that even if you set your power plan in Win to "performance", wonderful Lenovo app will still bite into your CPU.
P.S. I do think that getting an ASIO card would be the better solution. If you are on budget, there are plenty of inexpensive / used options available that should be more than enough for BIAB (and other audio adventures)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2019
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OP
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OK - I finally managed to carve out enough time to try out most of the suggestions, which were excellent. Here's what I've come up with:
> System info: Windows 10 Version 1903 (build 18362.900). Lenovo G505.
> Tried with MGU file with only MIDI tracks, no realtracks and a Kontakt or IK Multimedia guitar instrument on Melody track, playing back a pretty busy recorded MIDI session.
> Dropouts in sound and pauses in playback are somewhat intermittent with the Kontakt guitar, and just about constant with the IK Multimedia Steel String guitar.
> Same behavior with either sound card - the built in AMD HD8400 and the generic Sabrent USB Audio card (it has no model #).
> Ran the DPC checker - it shows around 1000 microsecond latency (yellow range) most of the time, and will very rarely spike up to around 3000 (red).
> Tried ASIO4All Buffers maxed - no improvement.
> BIAB and the instruments are running from SSD drives - one in the PC and one external over a USB 3.0 interface.
> Ran a Windows perfmon with 1 second resolution and noted times when the audio cut out or playback paused, and captured CPU, System, Disk, Memory counters, and some other stuff. There are no clear smoking guns that correlate with the dropouts - there are some CPU spikes (up to 100%), some spikes in disk reads/writes, but they don't actually line up with the times of the events. Perhaps there is a buffer involved so that makes the perf counters lag or lead the event? The disk performance was solid - near 0% idle time, memory dropped to around 300 MB free, but never went below. CPU performance was analyzed in detail (C states, Context Switches, etc.), but nothing really jumped out at me, with the exception of "Exception Dispatches/Sec" which was significantly higher on the IK Multimedia playback vs. Kontakt. I might have missed something, but I'm pretty well versed in Perfmon.
> Regarding the Power Saving suggestion, I've tried turning off all of the Power Saving features (I know the Power Profiles) and running off AC, but no real change there. I checked the Processor Performance counters to look for high C2 states and %MHz reductions but did not see anything significant. Again, a deeper dive could be possible here, but probably not worth it. I looked for "Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution" but I don't see it on my system.
> I tried to run Geekbench 5 on my system - it installed but crashes immediately when launched. It's surprising because my system is pretty stable and that sort of crashing rarely happens with any applications.
I think the bottom line is that the drivers/sound card hardware are barely up to the task for some of the Kontakt instruments, and definitely not able to handle IK Multimedia Guitar, which I what I took the consensus on the responses.
**Note: I don't experience the same issues when using the IK Instruments Standalone player (just using the on-screen piano), so BIAB and its overhead may be a factor, or perhaps the VST is more demanding.
I'll post here if I find another sound card that works.
Thanks very much for the thorough and detailed recommendations. If anyone wants more detail feel free to message me, or post here if you feel it is appropriate.
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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> Ran the DPC checker - it shows around 1000 microsecond latency (yellow range) most of the time, and will very rarely spike up to around 3000 (red).
That's not normal. 1000 is normal, spikes that high do affect digital audio and need to be fixed. Perhaps there is a buffer involved so that makes the perf counters lag or lead the event?
Yes, there is a slight delay, but not even a second in my experience.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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What happens if you render the tracks to audio. That is, take the VSTi completely out of the equation. If using a DAW it should be simple enough to freeze the tracks.
Are you using EQ and or Compression. I found using Ozone can cause some delay and add to load issues. I’ve always been in the habit of freezing tracks I think won’t need much more work. This is from the old days when having a heap of VSTs and VSTi’s running caused the systems to barf.
Just a thought.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Tony - Forgive me if I am not following. It sounds like you are suggesting converting the entire song without the melody track and converting to audio, then try recording MIDI with the VST instrument on top of that? You can PM me if you like to keep this thread from getting too cluttered.
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I strongly advise you to keep the discussion here, so others can learn, and the info can be found in the future. When someone sends me a PM, I much prefer to answer it in the thread that is already started. Others with a different or better answer can chime in, too.
Tony is right, programs that do heavy processing (and Ozone is one of the heaviest) do add delay that might be represented in Performance Monitor.
But I'm not sure how Ozone is being used in his example and would like to hear more detail before commenting more.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
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Try copying the file AsstSettings.ini from the 'C:\bb\Documentation\Bandstand Technical Notes' folder to the main bb folder, and see if that makes any difference as far as the stuttering with VSTi plugin goes. If it does not help or make any difference, you should remove the file before you forget about it.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Tony - Forgive me if I am not following. It sounds like you are suggesting converting the entire song without the melody track and converting to audio, then try recording MIDI with the VST instrument on top of that? You can PM me if you like to keep this thread from getting too cluttered. I usually export the song and add the VSTs in a DAW leaving BIAB with less to do. In a DAW it is easy run one instance of Kontakt or SampleTank and point individual tracks to instruments in the VST thereby greatly reducing the work the PC has to do. I don’t know if you can or how to do similar in BIAB. Each new instance of say Kontakt places a load on your PC. Having one instance and using the Multi saves a heap. I go even further if I have a lot going on and as I said freeze the tracks I’m happy with which converts them to audio thereby no longer using the VST this really reduces the load. It is easy to unfreeze and bring the MIDI back for further editing if need be, This is most likely different to what you’re doing but I would try this if nothing else to eliminate BIAB as an issue, Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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