Hi, Lately I have gotten interested in getting the BIAB midi melody to sound like a real instrument. I did a search and found this 10 year old thread.. Someone suggested some things in one of my very old posts as well. Rather than use this very old info I thought I would ask what is the latest and greatest on this topic. Specific questions include, quality (can it trick those who are not told it is midi), cost, software or hardware, what does PG music recommend and sell and does everyone agree this is the best. It makes sense that PG Music would get behind the better methods. I read that PG Music use to sell the Ketron SD2 synth. Lastly is there any way to get this realistic sound out to the BIAB export to a wav file. That is my biggest interest as I want to better inspire members of my Jazz Jams Club to get involved and even buy BIAB which makes getting involved easier. It kind of started when I recently got a very anti BIAB drummer friend using .wav exports of BIAB backing tracks. I now have hope...lol. He may even buy BIAB some day :-) Another use is to have BIAB do melody during a live jam when the melody person does not show and I (and no one else attending) is capable of doing the melody.
1-Forget about General MIDI (GM) sound sources. The best sounds come from non-GM synths. I use Kontakt as there are a number of good third party sounds for it as well as NI's Kontakt sounds. I use the full version of Kontakt but you may get buy with the free Player version. There are many sounds available for the free version but you must read the requirements carefully as some will only run on the full version.
2-Your options are not limited to soft synths like Kontakt. Many hard synths (keyboards) have excellent sounds also.
3-You will need to learn about the instrument you are emulating and how to get those nuances by using MIDI controllers (CCs). Don't let that scare you. One it is not that hard to learn and two many soft synths already have the nuances programmed in and ready to use via key switches, knobs, or sliders. Most are assignable to hardware controls, which leads me to:
4-Buy a MIDI keyboard controller, especially if you are using soft synths. It doesn't have to be an expensive one but I would strongly suggest you get one with pitch bend, a mod wheel, 8 sliders, and 8 knobs. The sliders, knobs, and mod wheel are assignable so you can match soft synth controls to the hardware MIDI keyboard controller controls. It's super easy to do now-a-days.
5-You are not limited if you don't have a MIDI keyboard controller. You can manually input everything but that is tedious, time consuming, and I find not as realistic if done while playing with sliders and knobs.
6-I would strongly suggest you do this in a DAW and not in BiaB. A DAW has many options including sound on sound recording. Many times I will record the notes of a song then using sound on sound recording adding the nuances via sliders and knobs. DAWs have their own terminology for sound on sound but all of the good ones have it.
I hope this helps and if I can help feel free to ask.
Good luck.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I dig Mario’s post, I am heavily into Kontakt linraries.
Nevertheless, for the price, Ketron’s SD2 was pretty damn good. now Thomann sells those V3sound triangle shaped Sonority XXL-types. I just had to get one. Not Kontakt quality, maybe, but more than a step up from the Ketron SD2 or SD1000.
@Mario, BIAB should do more to provide quality sounds or accomodate good GM sound libraries. The workarounds you and I are used to are not really user friendly, certainly not for who starts out with BIAB.
@John: Jazz Jam Clubs? Sounds really cool, I looked it up, what a nice concept.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Thanks Guys, you have me on an exciting new learning curve :-) After I read MarioD's comment about midi controllers I found myself watching this "BEFORE YOU BUY A MIDI CONTROLLER..." video.. Also using plugins with BIAB. I think realistically it will be a while before I can get myself up to speed on this stuff like you guys are. I have two shared recordings I am working on for the Jazz Jams Club I run (need two brush up on playing those songs). This is the direct link to the Jazz Jams Club. It explains why we are doing shared recordings and I think it will be a permanent added part of our activities. I also have a bunch of old house repairs going on (currently replacing two sink/faucets).
So once I have the midi melody tricking people into thinking it is my guitar playing :-) will that sound get exported to .wav from BIAB (or from a DAW)?
In addition to the last post question here is a unique one.
My understanding is high quality midi is programmed to sound like a specific instrument so is there software that can take the .wav recording of a specific guitar or any instrument and map that into a midi sample (if that is the correct term) that can be used to closely recreate that sound in midi later?
A high quality midi instrument sound module typically has special controls that help a keyboard player emulate the playing of a skilled musician.
For example a violin instrument might select from multiple samples based on the note velocity entered. A violin instrument may use a round robin method to select a sample from a pool of eligible samples so the same sample does not get repeated too often. In general the larger the sample pool is for the sound module the more likely it will be that the sound module can emulate the sound you desire. Some sound modules automatically make these choices while others give the keyboard player absolute control over everything.
A sound module might use modeling to create sound. This can be in addition to or instead of using samples.
Many sound libraries highlight articulations. I consider articulations as modifiers or enhancements. For example a violin is normally bowed but can also be plucked or muted. In this example plucked and muted are considered articulations that are selected by the keyboard player entering a note outside the normal range of the instrument.
All this control comes at a cost though. A keyboard player may not be able to access all the articulation keys while playing live. Some sound modules work better in DAWs while others excel in live settings but sound bland in a DAW.
Thanks Jim, Very interesting. It sounds like the BIAB edit note menu needs a method to modify the midi sounds (pluck the note, bow it, muffle it). I guess there are realistic limits that one must accept.
Another forum I visit has a discussion where a very accomplished guitar player wanted to use a guitar inspired midi controller to input midi data. The thought was since he is such a good musician on the guitar and is a rank beginner at using a keyboard, that using the guitar midi controller would be more productive than using a keyboard and aid in developing expressive midi guitar tracks.
It hasn't worked out as the guitar player expected. Chord and melody fingering on a guitar fingerboard differs significantly from the keyboard focused input fingering design of the VST. Midi data and keyboards have discrete elements while guitars have extra elements like hammer ons, hammer offs, slides, slaps and other forms of torture overlapping playing methods that are not specifically addressed in midi. Long story short he found it easier and quicker to peck at a midi keyboard than begin with a midi guitar controller and then edit.
I've downloaded +++ Amplesound's Martin Lite II +++ which is a free acoustic guitar sound library. I'm using it to learn how to work with a guitar sound module. If I let a Band-in-a-Box midi style with guitar strum it sounds amazingly realistic. If I use the strum patterns included in the guitar sound module, it sounds amazingly realistic. If I create strum patterns from scratch it sounds bad, bad, bad! I've got a lot to learn.
In my case fancy techniques on the instrument such as slides, hammer on, pull off, bowing, etc are of no importance. That is for the people coming out to jam to have fun doing. My use is simple melodies or complex melodies entered in BIAB and having them sound like a real instrument than a midi. It is to get us by when a real person is not there to do the part. The jam must always go on so in live jams it is when the melody player does not show. In shared recordings it is for when the melody player does not have his track done yet. That is about it. It sounds like the free plug ins for BIAB are all I really need since a DAW can't be used to enter notes.
Mario: "Forget about General MIDI (GM) sound sources. The best sounds come from non-GM synths."
I do not fully agree. I find Halion and Sonic are quite capable GM synths at 20+GB of sounds, especially as "all in one solution" for the price point. All drumsets are adjustable-per-drum and many many other features. Both items come in one package and are usually 1/2 off at least once a year.
Handpicking, there are always SF2 items which are either free or "cheap enough" some of them might not be as tweakable as Kontakt instruments but there are some very decent and realistic ones.
Do not get me wrong, I like Kontakt and it's amazing instruments, but I feel that some titles are way overpriced and unfortunately no GM.
Bottom line,
Kontakt by itself comes with pretty weak "factory" library. To get it right to "realistic specs", you have to hunt for sales/upgrades and by the end of the day, it will cost quite a lot, but you can achieve the "better" sound quality.
Halion / Sonic on the other hand "As Is" But the included library is very solid. Nice selection of traditional instruments. Plus GM. Very reasonable when on sale.
And of course #3 Compile VST's / SF2s etc. from various companies to make something more personal.
Another forum I visit has a discussion where a very accomplished guitar player wanted to use a guitar inspired midi controller to input midi data...
Originally Posted By: bowlesj
In my case fancy techniques on the instrument such as slides, hammer on, pull off, bowing, etc are of no importance. That is for the people coming out to jam to have fun doing...
Jim and John, you are highlighting very interesting points.
Since recording this song 11 years ago as a Band in a Box demo, I have been asked about how to achieve that cleanliness and precision in the accordion notes on the MIDI keyboard controlled by my Godin xtSA. One of the most important aspects when using a synth guitar is the adjustment of the different sensitivity values both in the instrument and in the MIDI interface, but clean and clear notes also rely on the technique and personal playing way.
A good synth guitar system with good tracking and parameters tuning is capable of tracing even the smallest performance subtleties, but as John mentions there are certain common techniques for "normal" guitar that may not be recommended for transcribing MIDI data from a guitar synth, such as tapping and fast legatos, since this implies minimal contact with the string that does not transmit the necessary force so that the hexaphonic microphone can track the notes accurately.
For this reason, when I record with a synth guitar, I emphasize playing the notes as cleanly as possible, especially in quick phrases. This reduces cleanup and subsequent editing of MIDI data to very little.
For my song I used a Godin xtSA connected to a Roland GI-20 (synth guitar MIDI interface) to a Roland RS-5 with the french accordion sound. I've used that rig ever since, with the later addition of Roland GR-55 and Boss GP-10. A few years later I used the GI-20 for the MIDI transcription of my samba / fusion RealTracks for Biab, it was a very satisfying musical experience. As a keyboard player, I use the MIDI guitar very little to transcribe melodies but to achieve other sonic textures with sounds from VSTi and sampler stuff.
For thoroughly authentic piano and organ sounds you might want to check out physical instrument simulations such as -> Pianoteq
Pianoteq ... I am really not impressed, the piano's sound canned, a little distorted. Too much cheap sounding reverb. OK when solo maybe but for mixing (MIDI or not) instrument stuff i used the Toontrack EZkeys Vintage piano quite often in the past.
@Rustyspoon is right, some GM stuff sounds quite good, in the past i used Hypersonic, and now HalionSonic which is 64 bit even. The free SE version is also quite good. Plus that the pianos sound quite better than Pianoteq.
Mario: "Forget about General MIDI (GM) sound sources. The best sounds come from non-GM synths."
I do not fully agree. I find Halion and Sonic are quite capable GM synths at 20+GB of sounds, especially as "all in one solution" for the price point. All drumsets are adjustable-per-drum and many many other features. Both items come in one package and are usually 1/2 off at least once a year.
I was unaware how powerful Halion and Sonic are. With over 20 gigs of sound it probably is the best GM on the market. So I will retract my "Forget about General MIDI (GM) sound sources" and say "forget about most GM sound sources".
......................
Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Bottom line,
Kontakt by itself comes with pretty weak "factory" library. To get it right to "realistic specs", you have to hunt for sales/upgrades and by the end of the day, it will cost quite a lot, but you can achieve the "better" sound quality. .......................
I agree that the Kontakt factory library is very week and very dated. I also agree that the NI's sounds for Kontakt are over priced and that you have to wait for a sale to purchase them. But there are a plethora of excellent third party sounds ranging from free to very expensive. I have a large library of them that I have collected over the years. Kontakt is my go to sound source for most of my sounds.
Peace and stay safe.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
[ But there are a plethora of excellent third party sounds ranging from free to very expensive. I have a large library of them that I have collected over the years. Kontakt is my go to sound source for most of my sounds.
Peace and stay safe.
Here are a few at the top of my list which have all found a place in my music. I generally wait for a sale. So Mario, what are a couple at the top of your list?
For this reason, when I record with a synth guitar, I emphasize playing the notes as cleanly as possible, especially in quick phrases. This reduces cleanup and subsequent editing of MIDI data to very little.
Thanks Carlos and nice playing.
Regarding your comment "This reduces cleanup and subsequent editing of MIDI data to very little." above, this is the issue. The notation I put in the melody track is either an original song melody or simple record lift melodies. I use AnthemScore to assist with record lifting. I figure out the timing of the notes and enter them directly in BIAB. This is faster and cheaper than trying to play it, run it through extra expensive equipment, adjust it. This is all front end stuff (getting the notes in). My question has nothing to do with front end. It has to do with making the melody track such that it does not turn people new to BIAB off. I think PG-Music needs to have an over view course web page for absolute beginners on this topic "making the melody track such that it does not turn people new to BIAB off". The beginner steps through the course topics in prerequisite sequence after they get the overview. If they think they know a topic they (don't drill down into the details but instead skip to the next topic). So as an example entering melodies could be a topic with two sub topics (manual notation entry and midi instrument playing entry). When I first got BIAB in 2012 I would process that topic but now I would skip that topic.
My question has nothing to do with front end. It has to do with making the melody track such that it does not turn people new to BIAB off. I think PG-Music needs to have an over view course web page for absolute beginners on this topic "making the melody track such that it does not turn people new to BIAB off". The beginner steps through the course topics in prerequisite sequence after they get the overview.
The answer to your question is two fold 1) how you create the midi (This I assume is what you are calling "front end") and 2) what you use to turn the midi into audio.
Therefore you can not ignore the front end as it is a huge contributing factor to the realism of the sound output. It appears you are creating you midi directly from staff notation entry. One of the first responses advised that this was not optimum,
Quote:
4-Buy a MIDI keyboard controller
Midi creation (front end) has to be "played" to reach the level of realism we are expecting when we chose the high end synths for playback. That is what Carlos and others are telling you. Also why the MidiSupertracks of BIAB are the choice and why BIAB is not the only tool you need. Took me a long time to appreciate this fact.
And finally, regarding the "latest and greatest methods", I can tell you that none of this has changed in the past 20 years. There is little to nothing new in BIAB or industry technology to change this fundamental premise regarding midi.
For thoroughly authentic piano and organ sounds you might want to check out physical instrument simulations such as -> Pianoteq
Pianoteq ... I am really not impressed, the piano's sound canned, a little distorted. Too much cheap sounding reverb. OK when solo maybe but for mixing (MIDI or not) instrument stuff i used the Toontrack EZkeys Vintage piano quite often in the past.
@Rustyspoon is right, some GM stuff sounds quite good, in the past i used Hypersonic, and now HalionSonic which is 64 bit even. The free SE version is also quite good. Plus that the pianos sound quite better than Pianoteq.
This is a perfect example of the fact that music is subjective, as we each hear what we hear. Pianoteq is my go to piano sounds! Lots of good to say about EZKeys grands but for me, Pianoteq is the cheery on the top of the cake.
Midi creation (front end) has to be "played" to reach the level of realism we are expecting when we chose the high end synths for playback. That is what Carlos and others are telling you. Also why the MidiSupertracks of BIAB are the choice and why BIAB is not the only tool you need. Took me a long time to appreciate this fact.
So I don't skip that part of the course :-) That's fine :-) We do what we got to do.
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