Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
So this is just amazing and I am sure some of the other Synths are too! As I get time I will check into them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5-ksmyh5H4&feature=youtu.be
However where is the help video for getting the midi output of this into the BIAB melody track? I have 3 uses for this in my Jazz jams Club. If all this can do is play guitar on a keyboard that would be a major disappointment.

Also I am thinking I might create a working start of this "making BIAB Midi Notation sound real course" on my Jazz Jams Club website once I get this video. I will do it as I get my act together :-) I won't create the sample comparison database however. I am far too overloaded to pull that off.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/23/20 04:55 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Right, I think that since Dare to Compare was made over a decade ago, the number (and quality) of softsynths has exploded. The number of hardware synths is more, too, but by a far less degree. With so many available, it would be overwhelming for PG Music to demo them all. So that’s why I think a practical way to do it is as follows:

PG Music creates three or so BIAB song files, one each in a couple of genres like country, pop, and jazz. The styles used should be available to all, from the Pro version of BIAB.

PG Music creates a new version of the Dare to Compare Web page with MP3 audio of whatever synths they offer or sell, playing these song files.

PG Music makes the MGU song files available to us.

We prepare audio files using our choice of synth. We follow their guidelines about maximum volume and sample rate etc.

We send these audio files to PG Music with info about what created them, a link to the vendor, and any out-of-the ordinary instructions needed to use it.

PG Music adds this info to their web page.

A separate but linked web page to follow would be a video showing installation in BIAB of a few of the more common synths. This would include coverage of VST3, Kontakt Player, DXi, patch maps. Etc.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Sounds like a good plan Matt. Part of the reason I could not do the database I mentioned is I am not much of a web programmer. I put together a VPS site once. Much of that is forgotten. My database is at home. I ship the page up to the web server. A full time pro data based web programmer would probably find my idea easy and not only that make it real slick as the existing one is. But your ideas merge well such that the best of both could most likely be done.

Also I have a suspicion any BIAB track can be turned into a midi melody track. So the course should include how to do this. If could be an appendix. I have use for this. One track for melody and 1 or 2 tracks for fills but a different midi instrument. The first 4 tracks are for a standard drums, bass, piano & guitar backing real tracks. Our objective of a jam is to replace the first 4 out with live players and the melody track as well. However the fill midi tracks often will be kept and if this is done the guitar real track would be kept as a click. Anyway, I can't see myself going out and spending money until I have this full course complete and this is the stinger for PG Music. A product is not of much value if you do not know how to use it.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/23/20 08:40 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 474
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 474
Oh, I want those horns! I'm not a keyboard player, though. At least not in real time. Is there a way to get those controllers and articulations in with BIAB? Do the MIDI sounds come preprogrammed with, say, vibrato on the end of the longer notes, etc.? How can one get this stuff using step entry methods? Like select a note and choose a crescendo for that one note, etc.? Can I step enter edit the notes of the MIDI file in the Inignus software, and then import the MIDI file into BIAB or Real Band?


Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2024 (1109)
64 bit application
RealBand 2024 (1)
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Intel Core i7 4800MQ @ 2.70GHz
Haswell 22nm Technology
16.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 798MHz (11-11-11-28)
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Originally Posted By: Funkifized
Oh, I want those horns! I'm not a keyboard player, though. At least not in real time. Is there a way to get those controllers and articulations in with BIAB? Do the MIDI sounds come preprogrammed with, say, vibrato on the end of the longer notes, etc.? How can one get this stuff using step entry methods? Like select a note and choose a crescendo for that one note, etc.? Can I step enter edit the notes of the MIDI file in the Inignus software, and then import the MIDI file into BIAB or Real Band?


The (BIAB, Notation, editable notation mode, right click on a note, Edit Note, velocity of the note) adjustment is the general area where a lot of the BIAB midi melody descriptions would likely be entered (vibrato, slide up to the note from the prior note, slide down to the note from the prior note, bend up/down rather than slide, pick angle, slap, etc). Maybe BIAB would know what Synth is installed and somehow allow one to tweak the notes here (maybe a button to take you to a whole new way to update the midi sounds the synth can handle).

Personally I am not a big fan of loosing the old tried and true methods of representing notes. I barely use Guitar tabs (just a tiny bit in MuseScore and just for exercises). I have spent most of my musical hours (like 99.9%) with sheet music in front of me and 85% of the time I do not look at my guitar fingers.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/23/20 09:59 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I just discovered two problems.

#1: I had standardized all BIAB files to MGU extension on the file. I changed one file to a midi super track 2653 to give a much better organ sounding melody and it forces it to SGU. This has forced me to change the file name on my system so I can call it.

#2: But later an even bigger killer problem occurred. It later changed it to not play the written melody at all.

So I have had to return an old BIAB file copy which has extension MGU and the tiny sounding guitar. For now our Jazz Jams Club members will continue to play melody. It was a few years ago I learned of all this. Maybe in a few years I can revisit this.


Last edited by bowlesj; 06/23/20 11:53 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,333
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,333
Well, at the beginning I was with you. The questions you were asking made sense to me and we were on the same page. But this thread has taken a turn and lost me.... Not sure what is being talked about?

And by the way, A MST will not play your melody! Nor will BIAB midi drive that VSTi Guitar to play your melody. That's not how this works! crazy


Last edited by MusicStudent; 06/23/20 12:51 PM.

Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Updating the website is not in the slightest difficult. I've been writing websites since 1994 when there were very few.

But you're making mistakes in terminology that makes me (and perhaps others) worry that you aren't quite there yet.

The (BIAB, Notation, editable notation mode, right click on a note, Edit Note, velocity of the note) adjustment is the general area where a lot of the BIAB midi melody descriptions would likely be entered (vibrato, slide up to the note from the prior note, slide down to the note from the prior note, bend up/down rather than slide, pick angle, slap, etc).

That's correct.

Maybe BIAB would know what Synth is installed and somehow allow one to tweak the notes here (maybe a button to take you to a whole new way to update the midi sounds the synth can handle).

BIAB does know what synth is loaded but no program is going to adapt to it; it's quite the other way - the software libraries or hardware synths need to play what's given them (and they don't sometimes, depends on what you buy). MIDI has no sound. MIDI is just instructions to a synth.

#1: I had standardized all BIAB files to MGU extension on the file. I changed one file to a midi super track 2653 to give a much better organ sounding melody and it forces it to SGU. This has forced me to change the file name on my system so I can call it.

Well, no. SGU is the extension BIAB uses for a song without a melody or soloist track. MGU means the song does have something on the melody or soloist track.

#2: But later an even bigger killer problem occurred. It later changed it to not play the written melody at all.

That sounds like you put your melody on a track other than the melody or soloist track, and the song regenerated it as it should. Start a separate thread on that problem and we'll figure it out. The problem might be from this statement:

Also I have a suspicion any BIAB track can be turned into a midi melody track.


Unless you freeze the track immediately, it will regenerate. And if the style thinks there is a RealTrack there, you must alter the style to use MIDI on that track.




BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Updating the website is not in the slightest difficult.
I agree. I think that is what I said. I said I was not that great a website programmer but a person who does it day in and day out won't find making it a database a problem. For them easy.

BIAB does know what synth is loaded
Yes, I assume that because of the dare to compare page.


but no program is going to adapt to it
yes, my understanding is BIAB sends the midi instructions to the synth. Here is where I might be wrong. My understanding is BIAB can send no more than GM or GM2 midi instructions to the synth and these synth's need more in order to get that great realistic sound. But that begs the question "how did it feed proper melody instructions to those synths in the dare to compare web page". I think your Comment Matt that a few videos are needed is the solution to all this (videos tied together in proper prerequisite sequence by the course outline).

Well, no. SGU is the extension BIAB uses for a song without a melody or soloist track. MGU means the song does have something on the melody or soloist track.
I guess I need to explain a little better. I call BIAB from two programs I wrote. A program written in PHP and Javascript and also in Microsoft access VBA (visual basic for applications). It actually works out to 4 databases I have the BIAB file on (don't ask - there is a very logical reason for it that has to do with a long history). I am guessing one reason BIAB keeps changing the extension is so they can scan the tracks for categories or the styles for categories. Okays so this will not change so I decided to put at least 1 melody note on all my BIAB song files to force them to consistently be .MGU. However if trying to get the Melody Midi track to sound like real instruments is going to lead to the file extension constantly changing on me I have to develop code smart enough to deal with that automatically.

So I had the BIAB melody track set to Midi Instrument Patch "27 Jazz Electric Guitar". I set it to this midi supertrack.
Quote:
Organ, Rhythm Funk Ev 100
This funky rhythm organ plays a mixture of held notes, melodies, and bluesy riffs that complement a variety of funk styles. It works best with instruments that play a steady rhythm since it is very syncopated. Full notation is included so you can see exactly what is being played in your arrangement.
Tempo range: 85-125

I highlighted the part that might be the problem. That red sentence makes it sound like it is replacing my midi melody notes with a new set of midi melody notes but it took away the M in .MGU so I have no idea what it did. I am analysing the 3 midi options (Midi Instrument, Midi Super Track, Custom Midi Style). So these are different categories of midi instructions I take it. Changing the instrument does not clobber my notes. Maybe the other categories replace my notes (wiping out a lot of work and thus if this is true I should get a warming!). I am working with a BIAB song file copy. I will experiment. The experiment confirmed this. The organ track replaced my notes. I guess I don't use that one...lol. So I decided to save my working copy. It changed it to .SGU. Maybe this means "Solo". Okay so I tried the 3rd midi option "Custom Midi Style". This also clobbered my midi melody notes (no warning). However this time it did not change the file extension. It seems to have found a track from a midi style and dropped it in my melody track. Its a guitar rhythm. Clearly this is not what I want to do. They need a drop down for "Better Sounding Midi Melody Notes" and you get a list of soft synths to choose from just like the dare and compare web page. So then maybe it would be a good idea to tell the user the various ways you can go back to your notation and spice the notes up a bit with the edit note stuff that this synth can accept (that new button I was suggesting in the edit note dialog box).


Also I have a suspicion any BIAB track can be turned into a midi melody track.
Unless you freeze the track immediately, it will regenerate. And if the style thinks there is a RealTrack there, you must alter the style to use MIDI on that track.

I was trying to get the link to Jim Fogle's #603053 post on page two but I can't get it to work. I left the question below about his diagram.

Quote:
I noticed that the Melody track and the Thru track are the only two that have the top plugin set to "Coyote WT" and "SampleTank 2.x". I am making a guess that these are synthesizer software and also guessing that another track could be set for midi if it has these two in its top plugin. Is that correct? Also if they are synthesizer software how can two be allowed? This area is so full of questions.


So I think you (Matt) partly answered the question I asked Jim. To change a track to be midi I have to change the style.


I liked the PG-Music web page that said "midi instructions are like the sheet music instruction and the synth is like the human that plays the music". Simple concept but there are a boat load of numbers and number categories involved :-) My understanding is everything beyond GM and GM2 is the wild west of lack of standards across synths.

So here is my problem. I must discipline myself to let go of this. I have become very distracted (from playing music and from some Jazz Jam Clubs shared recording projects we have on the go and from house repair projects that need to get done) by this very interesting topic of trying to get the BIAB melody track being able to produce the proper midi instructions to drive various synths that produce great instrument sounds (Did I get the terminology correct). This distraction is taking a lot longer than I thought it would (more than I can afford). When PG-Music has a well thought out course of learning tied directly to their BIAB melody track (and making other tracks Midi melody tracks) I will try again (hopefully I will have time). For now I have to get my guitar finger clauses back :-) Its also not fair on the users (you guys). I am very good at learning a difficult topic like this if I have the proper videos and web pages to read in the proper sequence (a course). Don't get me wrong. Experiments work to :-) The problem is they take a lot longer and you have to make sure your BIAB file is backed up :-)

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/23/20 05:40 PM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Related directly to this thread's topic I woke this morning with a time and money saving idea. I entered it in my MS-Access reminder database. It is a habit I have that I find very useful. I normally write these to myself in the 2nd (You) person but I copied it here in the 1st (I) person so it does not sound like I am telling people what to do. It gives PG-Music an Idea how the BIAB melody can be used. Also some may not have heard of AnthemScore.
========
Subject:
Here is the cheapest fastest way I can capture my playing at a jam and get it into midi melody in BIAB so I can use it for future solos or even writing a song.

Cheapest (No need for a midi guitar and expensive midi equipment).
Fastest (No need to go through the very slow process of fixing bad timing in the BIAB notation).

Method:
  • Remember, after the jam I have my solo on a separate track in .wav format.
  • Use AnthemScore to both analyse the full mix of the song and also your track's .wav file.
  • With either or both of these files use (AnthemScore's default spectrogram with notes) to figure our the notes of your solo and punch them directly into BIAB.
  • You can punch this into the melody track (if to be used for a song) or the solo track (if to be used for future solos as a lick-riff-motif idea).
  • Maybe you punch it into both and even use it at a live jam. In this case maybe a different instrument is used and you select a great soft/hard synth to play it. Maybe the soft synth can be changed in the Bar Settings dialog box????

Other uses for AnthemScore and punching notation directly into BIAB.
  • Capture other riffs from great artist records to be used at the jam. In this case at the jam use a BIAB click track along with the riff on the BIAB solo track.
  • A very difficult melody no one can play. Maybe the guy who initiated the jam could play it but he did not show up. BIAB plays the melody with a good synth for mimicking his instrument.
  • Sending members the shared recording backing tracks with melody before you have a chance to learn to play the melody. This could be from a BIAB file you picked up on the web which already has the melody.

========
One last comment about this. There might be faster ways to get the notation updated in BIAB using a keyboard but I am still pretty ambitions as a guitar player and this takes a lot of time. I don't really want to get too distracted from this goal of playing as well as I can. I know how to punch notes into BIAB pretty fast. The great majority of what I punch in is very simple. Having said that if the method of getting the notes into the BIAB melody track does not take a lot of (money, time to learn and BIAB bad timing correction time) I am all ears :-)





Last edited by bowlesj; 06/24/20 02:12 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Okay here is my course outline page for making the BIAB Midi Melody and Solo tracks sound real. It started very rough. It is improving on the fly. It provides a central condensed location for the material such that I can quickly get back to material I need to review without trying to find it scattered about randomly in a giant forum thread on the topic. The objective is to eventually get it slick enough that I can use it and also later I can present it to the members of my Jazz Jams Club such that just maybe it will get some of them to buy BIAB which in turn will hopefully get them to be more likely to come out and participate in our jams. Maybe by that time the PG Music people will be thinking to themselves "We can easily out do John so lets make it happen". I am all for the very very best taking over :-) There is a saying that some great players can't teach worth a dam. In this case I suspect PG Music would be great teachers. In the mean time I will off and on look at it and improve it. I am open to any improvements in wording, sort order, prerequisite insertions, new videos, etc. Please remember our jam group has to use BIAB because the number of choruses often changes a few seconds before a song starts and I am already in a rush to get the next song going. BIAB works well.

Each time something comes in to improve it, I will make the changes and I will add a post to this thread with the link to the course outline.

Thanks,
John

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/24/20 08:19 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Just creating an entry in the Course outline: Getting the BIAB midi (melody and solo tracks) to sound real..

Using the process shown by the arrows in the attached picture I first tried putting CoyoteWT in.
That aborted and locked up the sound file.
Luckily I had followed my habit of creating a temp version of my song file for that experiment.
I used windows to close that abort down and brought in another working copy of the song file.
This time I tried something I figured would not cause a problem as shown in the attached picture.
I applied it but I hear no sound change.
I finally noticed the help button.
It is clearly worth clicking that button and reading the help.
Hopefully that explains why I hear no sound change.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
VST_Plugin_Help_Button.png (252.77 KB, 241 downloads)
Last edited by bowlesj; 06/25/20 08:39 PM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I have just created a section in bold red at the bottom of the Course outline: Getting the BIAB midi (melody and solo tracks) to sound real which is dedicated to the type of stuff I feel should be available in a database driven Dare To Compare page. I suppose I should study Matt's practical suggestions at this point. Maybe someone at PG Music should be in the loop.

Anyway, as much as I am having a lot of fun I have to let it go for a while as I am under increasing pressure to get some Jazz Jams Club recording done. At this point the course outline should at least give a rough point A to point B learning process. As I learn more I will keep improving it and making additional pre-requisite sequence adjustments to it. I have already made my Jazz Jams Club members aware of it. I would say 40% of them have BIAB but most are not that advanced. It may help them at least be aware of the potential BIAB has.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/26/20 03:18 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I just did a complete review, reorganize and improvement to the lower section of the Course outline: Getting the BIAB midi (melody and solo tracks) to sound real. It is much easier to read and includes a better button breakout for the Dare-To-Compare Page. A special 3 way button for Midi Melody entry is now included. To go directly to these improvements click the link and ctrl+F string search for "28th". From there to the very end has been improved.

I am pretty sure I am finished that section now. After I get my two Jazz Jams Club recordings complete I hopefully can start the course myself...lol. That will most likely lead to improvements in the upper section of the course and these could go for a while.


John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
John,

Thanks for the tremendous effort. I'm sure the course will be extremely helpful to many new users. It's great how you're trying to help new users!

Once again, thank you!


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
John. It was explained way back in this thread, the problem is how you input the melody into Biab's melody track.

You referred to AnthemScore. That is a so-called audio to midi converter and so far all of those suck pretty bad. There have been threads about audio to midi converters here for years. People test them out and they're not very good. I looked it up and watched a vid of it. The demo song was very basic guitar and for that it picked up the notes pretty good. There is no mention in what I read or heard that it picks up any articulations, modulations etc. If the part is simple enough I can this saves you the time involved in entering the notes and that's ok but it doesn't help with make a solo line sound real. It's giving you just the notes. To make midi sound real you need all the articulations and other things I'll describe below.

I'll give you an example of the problem with midi in Biab. Someone enters in or, in this case imports a track created by AnthemScore onto the melody track and sets up a trumpet to play it. With no articulations etc, what you hear is a straight, solid, unwavering tone that sounds like a trumpet for a split second or two but then sounds incredibly fake because no human plays a trumpet like that. No amount of you tweaking Biab is going to change that and changing synths won't change that either.

Say you picked up $2,500 brass synth that I can't remember the name of now. It sounds incredible but it has been explained at least 10 times in this thread already, that incredible synth is only going to play what Biab feeds it. That synth is capable of playing back all kinds of horn things like falls, doits, lipping techniques, all kinds of stuff. But if that information is not written into the midi file by the use of CC numbers, pitch bends etc, all the synth plays is the basic notes with zero embellishments and it would sound totally fake.

And you would be back here saying I bought this $2,500 synth and it still sounds like crap! Why can't Biab fix this? It's because Biab has nothing whatever to do with that. And it doesn't matter which synth because they're all the same when it comes to this. They all play what Biab gives it, nothing more, nothing less. There is no "automatic" adding of human articulations and realism after the fact.

A midi file is like a computer program, it tells the deaf and dumb synth what to play and that's all it does. It really is no different than you looking at your guitar sitting in it's stand and you ask it "why can't you play me something?"

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Thanks Jim, I am glad you feel it will be useful. For me it is a fun change from the same old routine :-)

Hi Bob,

over all I find BIAB Editable Notation mode very fast for inputting melody compared to musescore. It's unfortunate problem is not being able to input triplets in a latin tune (triplets against 16ths). If PG Music could borrow the technique that MuseScore uses verbatim getting it to print and play properly it would serve all my needs. I suspect it is a programming challenge.

I have used AnthemScore twice with the spectrogram and once trying use its notation capture.

AnthemScore SpectroGram:
I find it sucks in its shortcut keys but I am starting to catch on to tricks for this. What I find is you start to learn to read the beat in the spectrogram such that you can count while it is running and if you are looking for a chord is is very good at helping with this (or single notes for that matter).

AnthemScore Notation Capture:
I vaguely remember trying to play a melody on guitar and record it in .wav and see how AnthemScore wrote the music and it was terrible in that the inaccuracies in the notation created more problems than it was worth. So the solution was to use the spectrogram and learn to see the beat within the spectrogram and enter it correctly into BIAB. Your eye, ear and mind automatically know after a while what beats the notes are suppose to be on (just like old fassion transcribing). This is the trick.


Quote:
I'll give you a basic example of the problem with midi in Biab. Someone step enters a melody track and sets up a trumpet to play it. What you hear is a straight, solid, unwavering tone that sounds like a trumpet for a split second or two but then sounds incredibly fake because no human plays a trumpet like that. No amount of you tweaking Biab is going to change that and changing synths won't change that either.


That makes sense. I think BIAB sounds better on fast tunes where the player has less time to do anything with each note and that is in fact the only time I would ever use it at a jam (fast hard tunes if the song initiator did not show up - it happens - I hate wasting practice). Bottom line is I can not use a daw, mp3 or .wav file at a jam. BIAB is the only option. I explained that in this post. We have had 23 or so people come out to the jams using BIAB and every one enjoyed it. BIAB in no way shape or form causes you to loose your ability to have fun and put emotion into your music. I feel sorry for those who limit themselves here. Sneaking in a midi backup part won't ruin the jam. This leads to the next paragraph.

BIAB needs is a midi snap-to feature for printing sheet music of a song. So the player plays their instrument and BIAB creates midi that accurately reflects the human inaccuracies but it is not to be used for sight reading (which is primarily what I am after since I normally don't have BIAB play melodies). Then if the user wants to print it for sight reading they indicate what they want the inaccuracies to snap to. It could be 1/8ths, 1/16ths, 1/4s, whatever. So it cleans the human inaccuracies so it prints something that other musicians can sight read and add their own personal inaccuracies to. Vibratos would be left alone. Bends would be left alone. Volume changes would be left alone. I am sure I have heard of software that does this (maybe triple play's software).

I have about 30 songs I wrote in my early 20s. I put the music to paper as well as recording them. I quit guitar for 22 years (never touched it, never listened to music). To go back to those songs I would find it far to slow to figure out what I did by lifting the recordings. I just go to the music and in a very short period of time I can play them again. Litterly hundreds of times faster than record lifting.

Here is the question. With all the complaints I am hearing about BIAB playing midi or anything playing midi why bother with Midi at all? You may as well just record to .wav which is the ultimate sound capture. Anthemscore can create notes from a .wav but it does note have a snap-to feature. When you play the music back in AnthemScore from the spectrogram it sounds just like the record.

I just watched the BIAB recording midi video.. Can it record guitar slides, guitar bends, etc. How do they look in notation. I generally read read song melodies exact on the first melody then after the solos I change the melody around (jazz it up). Its good sight reading practice and improvising practice. But notating midi again is for recording hard melodies just in case the jam initiator can't attend.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/26/20 08:14 PM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
That's the problem John. No music program or DAW can add anything to what you enter. All you can enter into Biab's notation is the notes. Yes, you can add some velocity by drawing curves with your mouse in the piano roll and that helps a little. You can draw in a fade at the end of some notes so they don't just cut off for example. But to do that for an entire 16 bar complex solo melody line? Man, you could be a week doing that.

I think a far better way would be to find complete midi files online that contain the melody that someone else already took the time to play live using a good midi controller. A controller has the sensors to capture your playing including velocity, modulation and all the other things that make a midi line sound real. If you want a sax playing the melody there are files where the sax player used a wind controller that plays like a sax and the DAW records all the nuances the controller puts out and that's what's in the midi file.

The problem is you may not be able to find commercial midi files of the songs you need and if you do find them you may have to pay for them. That could be worth it because they're usually not terribly expensive. They can be something like $6 or $7 each and they usually discount them if you buy 5 or 10 at a time. Many times you can find free ones too. But free is free and you get what you pay for. Some are pretty good, some not.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
bowlesj Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I basically get what you and everyone else is saying Bob. It is not exactly the most complex thing to understand. What I write below should make if very clear that I indeed understand everyone but additionally help you understand my stance as well (touch wood).

The melody of a song is not the only enjoyable part of a song but lets focus only on melody at the moment. It can be broken down into a continuum. I give you the continuum below. Some are happy at #1. I am happy at #4. You and others in the thread are happy at #6. Some are not happy until they get to #8. I don't understand how people can be happy at #1 but I accept that they are indeed happy there and I do not put myself on a pedestal and say there is something wrong with them. You don't understand how I can be happy at #4. You need to understand that I am indeed happy at the lower levels but at the same time I am maybe a touch happier at the higher levels and am totally in joy if I can play at level #8 but I roll with the punches better than most from the sounds of it.

  • 1: Talking. No Melody. (rap music or the marketing name "Hip Hop" that some in jazz give it.)
  • 2: Melody with boring note selection and tiny and monotone.
  • 3: Melody with great note selection but still tiny and monotone.
  • 4: Melody with great notes and great tone played on a midi that actually sounds like a great guitar but played monotone.
  • 5: Melody with great notes and great tone played on a midi that actually sounds like a great guitar but played with varying volume adjustments to show emotion.
  • 6: Melody with great notes and great tone played on a midi that actually sounds like a great guitar but played with varying volume adjustments to show emotion and added techniques to make it sound interesting.
  • 7: Melody with great notes and great tone played on a midi that actually sounds like a great guitar but played with varying volume adjustments to show emotion and added techniques to make it sound interesting plus the player draws respect because they show they can sight read and improvise (play the notes exact and later improvise them).
  • 8: Melody with great notes and great tone played on a midi that actually sounds like a great guitar but played with varying volume adjustments to show emotion and added techniques to make it sound interesting plus the player draws even more respect because they show they can right read and improvise (play the notes exact and later improvise them and they can put in extremely difficult improvising to).

Because I am happy at #4 this allows me to enter record lift notation into BIAB rather than Musescore such that I can have it played by BIAB at a jam if no one is there that can play it (to busy playing something else or it is just too difficult to play). These BIAB midi sub melodies or filler melodies are not the main attraction of the show (our live playing is). We hide the fact that one member of our group (BIAB Midi fill in melody) has no emotion. But this is not to say that this fill in melody can not make a good contribution at level #4. Our live playing takes the overall performance up to a level 7 and even at times a level 8. In the end the participants at our jams have a heck of a lot of fun. Many don't have the time to come out but they stay on the list hoping they eventually will.

The other use of putting filler melody in BIAB is just to have a place to record it so it is not forgotten. Better in BIAB than in Musescore so we can at least use it at a jam.

Now if I can use a midi guitar to take the BIAB midi melody to #6 at times (with bends, trills, volume adjust, octaves, slides, etc) I will indeed do so. I will be a bit happier at that level but I will still enter midi melodies in BIAB using BIAB notation if I have trouble playing them. I don't burn the house down just because it isn't perfectly clean. If the continuum didn't work hopefully the analogy did.

I might see if I can rent hardware midi and midi guitar after I finish the course. I am more likely to be able to add interesting techniques on guitar than on keyboard. I also need to see if I can find software that can do midi snap-to so the midi notation is sight readable. In other words if it was suppose to look like a triplet swing I won't want to see it written as a 64th note. I will create a BIAB wish list for this.

Last edited by bowlesj; 06/27/20 03:48 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,799
John, the ‘snap to ‘ feature you are looking for is called quantization.

Some DAWs like Cakewalk by Bandlab (formerly SONAR) do use the term Snap but it refers to track alignment.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,394
Posts732,484
Members38,441
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
zagrajbarke, Ernest J, Izzy, BenChaz, Csofi
38,440 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 195
Al-David 124
DC Ron 112
dcuny 87
rsdean 82
Today's Birthdays
CeeDee, SethMould
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5