We agree on the point that bluegrass melodies (and similar feels like reels) are typically written using 8th notes, not 16th notes (as BIAB does if you don’t choose edit-expand). This is because the tradition is to write the melodies in cut-time (2/2, also known as Alla breve). In Cut-time, each beat where you tap your foot is actually notated as a half note, to make it easier to read. It makes the notation easier to read, but it would be not advisable to implement that in an accompaniment program where you need to mix n match parts from different styles, because you'd be matching a quarter note with a half note. For example, chikin pickin guitar or other country styles are never notated like that in 8th notes, it's always 16ths, so you it would be awkward adding other parts to your 8th note based bluegrass style.
In my analysis, using 8th notes in bluegrass is called cut-time and 2/2 time signature, though they don’t write the 2/2. That has been done since the 1600s and the original name for it is alla breve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve It doesn't affect how the music is played, it just affects the appearance of the notation.
What BIAB needs is a mode to display the notation in cut time 2/2, and then you’d see 8th notes. In cut time each beat represents a half note. We did add notation modes like that for 6/8 9/8 and 12/8 but haven’t done cut time mode yet. That mode would be useful for styles like bluegrass, reels or sambas where you want the notation in cut-time (as if the tempo was doubled). Hopefully we can add that before the end of the year.
>That book is the only one I've ever seen that notates bluegrass/fiddle tunes/traditional music in 16ths. All of the others notate the styles in 8ths.
Both of those provide the functionality you are asking for. So that, for example, this statement.... "You can't take a piece of bluegrass sheet music music and enter it into BIAB as it is written in most so called bluegrass styles without using a work around" can be appended with .... unless you use an 8th note bluegrass Real style like _BGBAND8.sty or MIDI style like Ozark.sty. The melodies are notated in 8th notes, the tempos are high like 270 etc.
And by the way, when you listen to one of these styles, are you really tapping your foot (or counting them in) at tempo 270? I don't, it's 135 for me.
_BGBAND8 works alright with the tracks on halftime it will reduce the chord duration by half, generate, then expand the chord duration x2. So that's basically doing what I was doing in Reaper. If users from the bluegrass communities could record some UserTracks instruments 8th notes, tempo ranges from 160-220+.
Here's the current Bluegrass RealTracks Ev16 Tempo 100-140 (Ev8 200-280).
Code:
Name Instrument Type Feel Tempo* Genre # N/A Set Stereo Chart Artist TS Holds Simpler Available Direct Input Available
<None> Note: list is filtered by bluegrass 230 Mn
Guitar, Resonator, Rhythm Folk8thsRandy Ev 085 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 85 Folk,Country,Bluegrass 2645 263 Mn N Randy Kohrs 129
Mandolin, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Sw 085 Mandolin Rhythm Sw 85 Bluegrass,Country 1699 153 Mn Glen Duncan 208
Banjo, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Sw 085 Banjo (106) Rhythm Sw 85 Bluegrass,Country 1698 153 Mn Glen Duncan 207
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 598 33 St PG Artist Y 64
Guitar, Acoustic, Soloist Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic Guitar (26) Soloist Ev 100 Country 597 33 St N PG Artist Y 64
Mandolin, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 100 Country 599 33 St PG Artist Y 130
Bass, Acoustic Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 592 33 Mn Dow Tomlin Y 73 s
Mandolin Soloist Bluegrass Ev 100 Mandolin Soloist Ev 100 Country 820 62 St N Andy Leftwich Y 130
Mandolin Soloist Bluegrass Ev 100 (Bluesy) Mandolin Soloist Ev 100 Country 821 62 St N Andy Leftwich 130
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Rhythm - Simple) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 590 33 St Scott Vestal 120 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Rhythm) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 589 33 St Scott Vestal Y 120 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Soloist) Banjo (106) Soloist Ev 100 Country 591 33 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 593 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Chops) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 594 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Shuffles) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 595 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Soloist Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Fiddle Soloist Ev 100 Country 596 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Guitar, Resonator, Background CountryWaltzRandy Sw 110 Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Sw 110 Bluegrass,Country 2646 263 Mn N Randy Kohrs 129
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 431 11 St PG Artist Y 64
Guitar, Acoustic, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic Guitar (26) Soloist Ev 130 Country 435 12 St N PG Artist Y 64
Mandolin, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 130 Country 432 11 St PG Artist Y 130
Mandolin, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Mandolin Soloist Ev 130 Country 436 12 St N Andy Leftwich Y 130
Bass, Acoustic, Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 427 11 Mn Dow Tomlin Y 81 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Ev 130 (Rhythm) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 426 11 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Banjo, Bluegrass Ev 130 (Soloist) Banjo (106) Soloist Ev 130 Country 433 12 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 428 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 (Chops) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 429 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 (Shuffles) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 430 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Fiddle Soloist Ev 130 Country 434 12 St N Andy Leftwich Y 75
Guitar, Resonator, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Ev 140 Country 1297 121 Mn N Glen Duncan 129,129
Guitar, Resonator, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 (Outside) Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Ev 140 Country 1300 121 Mn N Glen Duncan 129,129
Guitar, Acoustic, Fingerpicking BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1108 96 Mn Gt Pat McGrath 100
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1109 96 Mn Gt Pat McGrath 100
Bass, Acoustic, BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1106 96 Mn N Byron House 117
Fiddle, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Fiddle Background Ev 140 Country 1107 96 Mn N Stuart Duncan 123 s
Fiddle, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 (Outside) Fiddle Background Ev 140 Country 1144 96 Mn N Stuart Duncan 123,123 s
Banjo, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1105 96 Mn Glen Duncan 128
Mandolin, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1110 96 Mn Jason Roller 130 s
> I have 18 3" binders all filled with tabs and songs I have collected over my 50+ years, both Flatpick Guitar and Banjo. I have the entire Banjo News Letter collection dating back to 1973 full of tablatures and the entire Frets Magazine collection. All of the songs are written in 4/4 time using 8th notes per measure, not 16th notes. Now no one is going to tell me that for the past 50 years I have been involved in bluegrass that all these teachers and all these books are wrong and PG Music is right.
Are you sure they weren’t using the cut-time signature mark (a C with a vertical line through it, indicating 2/2 time, with four 8th notes per beat), rather than just a C (indicating 4/4 time)?
Many of the bluegrass sheet music and instruction books I look at use 8th notes, but clearly label the time signature as “cut-time” which is 2/2. The cut time signature is a C with a vertical line through it. That doubles the displayed note values turning 16ths into 8ths and 8ths into quarter notes etc., so that it is easier to read. In that time signature, there are 4 eighth notes per beat and 2 beats per bar. But that isn’t 4/4 time, and if you want to write it in 4/4 time signature (as done in BIAB and most other styles of music) you need to use 16ths notes.
Using either time signature, the typical tempo of bluegrass is about 130 bpm, and not 260. If you don’t believe me, try counting in a bluegrass tune with your band at tempo 260 and see what happens!
For example, the Real Bluegrass Book https://www.amazon.com/Real-Bluegrass-Bo...C310&sr=8-7 ( click "Look Inside" and scroll down to a tune like Alabama Jubilee and notice the cut-time 2/2 indicator) If someone walked up to you and asked you to play some 16ths notes banjo riffs for him, would you answer that bluegrass banjo players would only rarely play 16ths notes, and typically play 8th notes, as seen in bluegrass music books?
As mentioned, we plan on coming up with a cut-time display mode before the end of the year, so that any notation could be displayed with 8th notes instead of 16ths, but that will just affect notation display and not affect the tempos or sound of the music.
Peter, I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion. While I’ll never be using the bluegrass styles, the same concept is involved for my preferred genre, samba. You helped me understand your thinking some years ago and I appreciate that. I think it was less clear in that case whether ‘most’ used cut time; I recall you asked me for examples because it wasn’t always obvious. I’ve also seen examples where the original was notated in cut time but fake book or pop versions write it in common time.
What really helped me was the addition of time base changes to RealDrums a few years back. I requested it. Now I can make anything work and I don’t consider that too difficult or time consuming. But whatever converter you might come up with for the bluegrass styles, please keep samba in mind as well. It could save a few minutes of experimenting. Thank you again.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Matt, Good point and yes, samba has that same issue (where the same speed of samba can be thought of as a tempo of 90 or 180 depending on the context. A converter and a cut-time display mode to show 8th notes instead of 16ths) would help out there.
As an aside, my drummer for many years was Joel Rosenblatt. Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power and is now doing New York City work (including Hamilton). He was very gracious with me as I counted off samba tunes in 4/4 because I had composed them in BIAB! But he helped me to understand how I should be doing it.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
btw) if you want any style that is done at a tempo of say 120, to work at double tempo (240), you change the timebase of the tracks at the top to half-time, and then it works.
for example, _YEEHAW.sty is a tempo 130 bluegrass style,
to change timebase of a song or a style...... and if you instead want it to work at a tempo of 260 so it shows eighth notes, you use the radio buttons at the top and set each track of the song to "half-time" and then it will play fine as 8th notes at 260. Then you can choose File-StyleMaker- save song as style and you'll get a style that will always play like that. For example, save it as _YEEHAW8.sty
If you prefer to just work in the stylemaker to begin with.... to change a style .... You can also edit the style like that (menu-file-stylemaker-edit Ctrl-Shift-F9) to open the stylemaker. 1. for RealTracks, RealDrums and MIDI SuperTracks...press MISC and MORE and then change the timebase of each track to HALF TIME, and save-as the style with a new name like _YEEHAW8 and then that style will always play at double tempo. 2. For MIDI tracks in the style, use the menu item Style-Expand Style (to 8th notes).
>As an aside, my drummer for many years was Joel Rosenblatt. Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power and is now doing New York City work (including Hamilton). He was very gracious with me as I counted off samba tunes in 4/4 because I had composed them in BIAB! But he helped me to understand how I should be doing it.
It looks like the dance studios refer to the samba tempos based on 16th notes and would call that 100.
https://arthurmurraystudios.com/latin-dance-tempos/ "there are two main styles of Samba: International and American. In the American style, it is performed at 104 beats per minute for pros and amateurs. The International Samba is performed slower, at 96 to 100 beats per minute."
On my 2006 CD I have a Samba composition at 113. Romero Lubambo put down the original tracks at 110 but we decided to speed it a bit when we got to the studio to add the rest of the band. That’s probably the fastest samba I play regularly. But my book has tunes from 90 to over 120, and then 180 to mid 200s. Most of the ones in the upper range are because I wrote or transcribed them on BIAB before I started changing to cut time.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Peter: It's all over the place with no standardized notation. Many of the books don't even have notation, just tablature. Some have 4/4 time with no cut-time or common time symbol, some have 2/4 time with a cut-time symbol, some have 4/4 time with common time symbol.
Earl Scruggs definitive book on Bluegrass Banjo has them as 2/4 time with the cut-time symbol but that seems to be the exception in my collection. Janet Davis's excellent book on Melodic Bluegrass Banjo from Mel Bay is all 8th based notes with 4/4 time signatures. All 12 volumes on flatpick guitar from Flatpick Guitar Magazine are all showing as 8th based notes using 4/4 time. Steve Kaufman's 406 page book on American Fiddle Tunes from Mel Bay has over 300 songs all notated in 4/4 time with 8th notes.
I understand where you are coming from and the BIAB way of notating does not bother me at all since I have quite a few years (50+) under my belt playing banjo, guitar and bass.
Interesting note that PG Music's old program, Master Flatpick Guitar Solo's, which I bought decades ago, has some of their songs, in notation mode, showing as 8th based notes with no cut-time symbol and some has 16th based notes also with no cut-time symbol.
All that being said, the new cut-time display mode will be a welcome addition to this already fantastic program I have been using since the days of floppy disks.
Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power
Really? What years? As closely as I have followed TOP I don't remember him ever playing with them. I know Spyro Gyra and that he's played with Blood Sweat and Tears for like 10 years now.
Last edited by eddie1261; 07/26/2009:05 AM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023? 2. Send it to us.
>All that being said, the new cut-time display mode will be a welcome addition to this already fantastic program I have been using since the days of floppy disks.
Whoever posted the jpg of the BIAB Bluegrass, do you still have that file? I'd love to get it and play with it some. To say I am unfamiliar with the genre would be like saying Ft Knox is a little bank in Kentucky.
Here is why I am at a loss to grasp this whole conversation. In one breath, I hear "We need BIAB to write in 1/8th notes." And in the next breath "Bluegrass players don't read music or play charts." If that is the case, you must be playing by ear. So how does your ear know if the music is written in 1/8th or 1/16th notes? And why does it matter as far as printing music out? I am interested in this discussion but lost as to what the origins and logic are.
The example I referred to above I viewed and it says it was in 70 bpm. What happens if you make it 140 bpm?
The disclaimer here is that I have never used BIAB, always RB, and never written anything that wasn't 110-140bpm groove kind of music that didn't require that fast chicken-pickin' kind of thing that Bluegrass is.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023? 2. Send it to us.
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