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+1 for sure - would save so much rendering multiple takes and splitting them up in a DAW

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+1 (think I've +1'd this idea at least 5 times!)

Today I regenerated a track about 15 times trying to get a cymbal crash in one place but not in another. Annoying (but still easier than exporting the whole thing!)

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Originally Posted By: Mike02392
+1 (think I've +1'd this idea at least 5 times!)

Today I regenerated a track about 15 times trying to get a cymbal crash in one place but not in another. Annoying (but still easier than exporting the whole thing!)


If one treats a RealTrack as if it is a live studio recording rather than a software program with unlimited regenerations of audio and apply techniques that have been used since the earliest days of multi track recording, 'freezing' part of a RealTrack is easy, fast and much more efficient than multiple regenerations of a random process. The BIAB Algorithm has total control of a regeneration, not the user. This makes it a completely random process since the algorithm has no way of knowing what particular audio the user wants to save.

Freezing a RealTrack in the BIAB Mixer on a Legacy Channel is a single track action, The BIAB Audio Editor Window has all of the DAW functions necessary to complete the steps quickly and with the same ease as using an external DAW. There is no need to render and export an audio track for editing in a DAW to preserve a specific piece of audio. Editing an audio file in BIAB is no more of a work around technique than doing it in a DAW. They function the same. If you encounter a recorded piece of audio from a RealTrack you want to preserve with a 'freeze', regeneration is not what you should do.

So, what should you do? BIAB has a feature that actuates an advanced freeze process that freezes and saves the audio exactly as it is at that particular moment. That action also automatically names that saved track and changes the color of the track giving a greater notice of the freeze than the snowflake of a normal freeze does. The action also transforms the track from a virtual track containing no actual audio into a WAV/WMA audio file that can be moved for editing in the Audio Editor Window. It is available with a few mouse clicks. It preserves the audio for editing and then placement anywhere it's desired to be on your Chord Chart for as many times as one wishes. It's possible to save a track then regenerate the track after a save multiple times creating several tracks for use to comp into a completely unique and custom track.

As users, we don't know the intricacies to how the BIAB algorithms search, select and compile the audio of a RealTrack. We don't know if it always chooses entire phrases or if it selects part of a chord from one area and the ending of the chord from another. If the latter is the case, 15 regenerations may be the beginning of hundreds more regenerations before that same audio is randomly generated again.

JohnJohnJohn nails the solution. It's creating a User Performance Track that contains the audio desired to be frozen and is a straightforward process. It's commonly understood that a User Track is a live performance but that is only one purpose and a single way it can be used. There are many different possible ways to create and use User Tracks, including creating one from a RealTrack performance that has specific audio desired to be used in a song project.


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: Mike02392
+1 (think I've +1'd this idea at least 5 times!)

Today I regenerated a track about 15 times trying to get a cymbal crash in one place but not in another. Annoying (but still easier than exporting the whole thing!)


If one treats a RealTrack as if it is a live studio recording rather than a software program with unlimited regenerations of audio and apply techniques that have been used since the earliest days of multi track recording, 'freezing' part of a RealTrack is easy, fast and much more efficient than multiple regenerations of a random process. The BIAB Algorithm has total control of a regeneration, not the user. This makes it a completely random process since the algorithm has no way of knowing what particular audio the user wants to save.

Freezing a RealTrack in the BIAB Mixer on a Legacy Channel is a single track action, The BIAB Audio Editor Window has all of the DAW functions necessary to complete the steps quickly and with the same ease as using an external DAW. There is no need to render and export an audio track for editing in a DAW to preserve a specific piece of audio. Editing an audio file in BIAB is no more of a work around technique than doing it in a DAW. They function the same. If you encounter a recorded piece of audio from a RealTrack you want to preserve with a 'freeze', regeneration is not what you should do.

So, what should you do? BIAB has a feature that actuates an advanced freeze process that freezes and saves the audio exactly as it is at that particular moment. That action also automatically names that saved track and changes the color of the track giving a greater notice of the freeze than the snowflake of a normal freeze does. The action also transforms the track from a virtual track containing no actual audio into a WAV/WMA audio file that can be moved for editing in the Audio Editor Window. It is available with a few mouse clicks. It preserves the audio for editing and then placement anywhere it's desired to be on your Chord Chart for as many times as one wishes. It's possible to save a track then regenerate the track after a save multiple times creating several tracks for use to comp into a completely unique and custom track.

As users, we don't know the intricacies to how the BIAB algorithms search, select and compile the audio of a RealTrack. We don't know if it always chooses entire phrases or if it selects part of a chord from one area and the ending of the chord from another. If the latter is the case, 15 regenerations may be the beginning of hundreds more regenerations before that same audio is randomly generated again.

JohnJohnJohn nails the solution. It's creating a User Performance Track that contains the audio desired to be frozen and is a straightforward process. It's commonly understood that a User Track is a live performance but that is only one purpose and a single way it can be used. There are many different possible ways to create and use User Tracks, including creating one from a RealTrack performance that has specific audio desired to be used in a song project.


Thanks for such a comprehensive response! I've read it a few times, have checked JohnJohnJohn's post, and have read the section in the manual on usertracks, but unfortunately I don't understand what you're saying frown I'm sure it's my fault... is there a step-by-step guide or tutorial I could have a look at that might help me understand?

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Originally Posted By: Mike02392
Thanks for such a comprehensive response! I've read it a few times, have checked JohnJohnJohn's post, and have read the section in the manual on usertracks, but unfortunately I don't understand what you're saying frown I'm sure it's my fault... is there a step-by-step guide or tutorial I could have a look at that might help me understand?


I'm not sure why the long and difficult to follow explanation from Charlie...

In the end, I think he is just saying "+1".

I think JohnJohnJohn's solution is exactly what we are all asking, for... the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance.


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Originally Posted By: zedd
Originally Posted By: Mike02392
Thanks for such a comprehensive response! I've read it a few times, have checked JohnJohnJohn's post, and have read the section in the manual on usertracks, but unfortunately I don't understand what you're saying frown I'm sure it's my fault... is there a step-by-step guide or tutorial I could have a look at that might help me understand?


I'm not sure why the long and difficult to follow explanation from Charlie...

In the end, I think he is just saying "+1".

I think JohnJohnJohn's solution is exactly what we are all asking, for... the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance.


It's not your fault, Mike. I left out the solution name and the step-by-step instructions.

Yes, I do give the wish list request a +1 - Even though "the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance." can already be done in BIAB although not in the specific order that it's requested.

The tutorial/step-by-step instructions is to convert the track to a Performance Track and used the saved audio file to merge with a regenerated performance.

The Steps:

Right Click on the Track and select Save as Performance Track.

When you do this, BIAB does a lot of things automatically including saving an exact copy of the track, naming it which 'freezes' the performance. It renames the track, changes the entire track color and transform the track from a virtual track to an actual physical audio file in either WAV or WMA that you choose.

Important step: Make a copy of the saved audio file.

This Freezes and saves the audio file for further use in the song. The original saved audio file will be erased in a later step to return the Performance Track back to a normal track.

To isolate the desired bars for use in your project and regenerate a new performance to merge with the isolated and frozen audio; Import the saved copy of the WAV/WMA file from the project folder into the BIAB Mixer's Audio Channel. Using the default import settings of the Import Audio Command should properly sync the audio track and the Performance Track so when you press Play, the two tracks will play doubled which confirms the saved audio is an 'exact' copy and the two tracks are properly synced in time.

Right Click on the Performance Track and select Erase Performance Track and select Yes when prompted. The Track will revert back to a normal track. (You will be prompted to click Yes to Erase the Performance Track. Select Yes. The original file that was saved when you selected Save as a Performance Track will be erased but the audio file copy you made will remain.)

Regenerate the track creating a new performance.

Use F5 in the Bar Settings to Mute and Unmute the two tracks to play the sections you saved making a composition between the two tracks that plays the isolated bars with the regenerated track.


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Yes, I do give the wish list request a +1 - Even though "the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance." can already be done in BIAB although not in the specific order that it's requested.

It is cool to find a work-around and thanks for the detailed explanation. However, it is a bit complicated and limited when a click and freeze bar feature would be simple for everyone to use and extremely powerful with no complexity!

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When we say freeze part are we freezing say bar 5-8 of a certain track so when we hit Gen it will generate all other bars ?
or can we freeze the whole track and ( I actually remember now where this is Bar to Bar Regeneration)
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
I suppose you could just freeze the whole track/s then when you select the Regenerate Selected Bar/s button it will pop a window up with:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This will un-freeze the selected section of selected track/s and re-generate with a new section.
Enter start bar[13 ] end bar[16] (will get automatically if selected)
Select Track/s
[ ] All Tracks Selected Bars
[ ] RealBass 684: Bass, Electric, PopHalfNotesSync Ev 120
[ ] RealDrums-RockHardEven8^1-HiHat,Ride
[●] RealPiano 522: Guitar, Acoustic, Fingerpicking Ev 120
[ ] RealGuitar 1119: Guitar, 12-String Acoustic, Strumming Ev
[●] RealStrings 408: Guitar, Resonator, Background Allis Ev 1

OK Cancel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they are going to have issues generating up 7 new track sections maybe they can call on bbw4 and get the data from that then overwrite the bar/s with the new data ?

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Here's a link to a video I made that is unedited from start to finish including the extra time where I walked away from my computer during a audio render. Rendering is much longer than normal due to the video being recorded.. Didn't edit to ensure the video and audio remained synced.

Dropbox Link to BIAB APT Freeze and Regenerate a section of Soloing


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 08/22/20 01:49 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
When we say freeze part are we freezing say bar 5-8 of a certain track so when we hit Gen it will generate all other bars ?
or can we freeze the whole track and ( I actually remember now where this is Bar to Bar Regeneration)


Yes... the ability to freeze particular bars. That other thread is where it was discussed in more detail. I was wondering where that went!

I imagine that there would be editing activation buttons for each individual track, so that when checked you could determine which bars of a track should be frozen. That way you could freeze certain bars on all tracks OR just one particular track, depending on which tracks are activated for custom freezing.

Then, whenever the song is regenerated, the frozen content will remain frozen and untouched, and can later be added to with the newly regenerated performances.


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Here's a link to a video I made that is unedited from start to finish including the extra time where I walked away from my computer during a audio render. Rendering is much longer than normal due to the video being recorded.. Didn't edit to ensure the video and audio remained synced.

Dropbox Link to BIAB APT Freeze and Regenerate a section of Soloing


Thanks for the video demo!! So you take a few steps to convert a track to audio and then mix and match bars from each track to comp a final track. Does it only work for two tracks or can you have several tracks to comp from? It seems rather complicated to me and I doubt I would remember all of these steps each time.

A much better way would be to select bars, freeze them and regenerate. Then, if I like some of the new bars I would freeze them and regenerate. I could continue an unlimited number of times simply repeating the same simple procedure until my entire track is like I want it.


BUT, assuming we may never get such a feature that actually works, my suggested work-around is as follows,

1) get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, etc. and then SAVE IT!
2) export all tracks as WAVs to mix in your DAW
3) next replace all tracks with the one RealTrack that you wish to use to comp a final track
4) regenerate and save all generated tracks out as WAVs (repeat 2,3 & 4 for additional tracks)
5) import all tracks into your DAW and do your comping there


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<<Thanks for the video demo!! >>

You're welcome.

<< So you take a few steps to convert a track to audio and then mix and match bars from each track to comp a final track. Does it only work for two tracks or can you have several tracks to comp from?>>

You can have as many tracks as you want. If you want to edit a single RealTrack, for instance, if you had a stray or bad note you wanted to delete, use the Artist Performance Track save selection to save the RealTrack to audio, import that audio onto the Audio Channel and edit the file. It's good to do this in the BIAB Audio Editor because you can set the bars exactly with the BIAB Chord Chart using the Snap To Button. When I edit a RT, after editing, I move the Audio to the track the original RT resided on and replace the original with the edited audio file as an Artist Performance Track.

Alternately, assume you've used all seven BIAB Mixer Channels putting together a RealStyle and several other RealTracks you really like. However, suppose there are more instruments you want to audition and you'd also like to hear how different instruments will sound together. It sounds like this is where you move your project to a DAW and follow the process of your suggested work-around as follows:

1) get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, etc. and then SAVE IT!
2) export all tracks as WAVs to mix in your DAW
3) next replace all tracks with the one RealTrack that you wish to use to comp a final track
4) regenerate and save all generated tracks out as WAVs (repeat 2,3 & 4 for additional tracks)
5) import all tracks into your DAW and do your comping there

Here's a preferable way in my opinion and why it's a better idea to continue on in BIAB rather than opening a DAW.

1) Get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, additional instruments, panning, volume levels, effects and tone controls.
2) Drag the Master to the WAV Quadrant
3) Enter DAW mode to shrink the BIAB Main Page and drag the WAV file to the desktop or folder.
4) Import the WAV file onto the Audio Channel.
5) Move the Audio to the Bass Channel as an Artist Performance Track.

I prefer to do this method rather than move the project to a DAW and it's a better idea because:
. It's faster, it allows you to audition hundreds of other Styles, RealTracks, SuperMidi Tracks, or MIDI tracks playing over the band you created and are satisfied with. All six of the other BIAB Mixer Channels are now available to audition and add new instruments.
. You can use some of BIAB's unique features like changing the key signature and tempo and instantly hear the changes, decide to keep an instrument or track and quickly proceed on.
. Find an instrument track you want to keep for use when you move to your DAW, Right Click and save that track to an Artist Performance Track and the APT also names the audio file. It's ready to move over to a DAW. (An APT Save is approximately 2.5 times faster than an export render. )
. Change your mind, erase the Artist Performance, create a new mix (including chord changes, key change, modulations, tempo change and any other BIAB Chord Chart edit.) and render to WAV.
. Import the new audio file and replace the old Artist Performance Track and continue on with your project.

<<It seems rather complicated to me and I doubt I would remember all of these steps each time. A much better way would be to select bars, freeze them and regenerate. Then, if I like some of the new bars I would freeze them and regenerate. I could continue an unlimited number of times simply repeating the same simple procedure until my entire track is like I want it. >>

Well, this wish list as posted gives you a single regenerated track. The Artist Performance Track does that and a whole lot more. I literally could list a dozen other operations, all done within the BIAB software program with no other outside sources necessary and it will have access to all of BIAB's one of a kind, unduplicatable features, tools and capabilities immediately available. If you create a small chord chart and practice these techniques for an hour, you'll have it down pat and have a much more useful and beneficial process than this wish list request.

Another so far unspoken benefit is that many of these techniques once you've learned them are also applicable to the other more commonly known UserTrack. An Artist Performance Track is just another version of the better known UserTrack.

I hate to be so wordy, but the Artist Performance Track has been a feature of BIAB for six years and there's but a single post about it in the UserTrack and Other Add-ons Forum in all that time. With 32,710 members plus guests, the post only has 415 views and 2 comments. That tells me it's practically unknown but it's clear to me it's the best kept secret in the entire BIAB suite of tools and features. A book could be written about the techniques, processes and benefits I've found using it and applying it to the BIAB Mixer in various ways and I'm sure if others experimented with it, learned how to use it, that as they became familiar, we'd learn that what I know is only the tip of the iceberg to the capabilities of the user APT (Artist Performance Track)


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 08/23/20 08:54 AM.

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I think they will add this feature for 2021 but the easiest way at moment I think is Drag n Drop.
You can edit a RealTrack by moving it to the Audio track and simply cut the section out you don't like and drag new section from any of the 7 MultiRiffs or just build it up from scratch in the Audio track:
See Full Screen Pic


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Charlie, I appreciate your effort at enlightening us but I just don't follow you at all! I suspect this is why there is no conversation about this here...no one else understands it either! smile

For example, in your step 5 you say import the WAV into the bass channel. What happens to the bass track? What if I want to mix individual tracks in my DAW (and I ALWAYS do!) It sounds like a complicated process with serious compromises.

An option to simply freeze bar by bar would be far easier for most folks to use.

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Charlie, I tried your steps and managed to successfully get all 5 completed. And, I ended up with the bass track labeled as Artist Performance track but the only thing audible on that track is the same bass that was there before. I'm not even following what the goal of these steps is. If the goal is to have a combined track of the whole song as audio why not just leave it in the audio track?

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In 725 you had to save the SGU then reopen it to play the performance track that was moved back to the RealTrack slot, I don't know if it's been fixed yet.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=606757#Post606757
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=607037#Post607037

I didn't read all of Charlie's posts but I watched the video, it had a RT in the audio track and and the same track in the RT slot, the sections that were muted in the Audio track were un-muted in the RT, so I would of thought you had to combine render only those two track to a wav file then import that wav file into the Audio track erasing the current audio track, then move the Audio track to the RT slot replacing the RT with the Audio Performance tracks.
So in 725 I had to save and reopen to get it to play.

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So it seems that we're back to where we started. I believe that the O/P's suggestion was to just be able to freeze part of a track, and I presumed without jumping through hoops to achieve that.

A great team has put forward workable solutions, a big effort, and they are appreciated. But I guess we would all benefit if this could be more straightforward.

Another +1, but without the hoops and hurdles and obstacles. An integrated option would be the ideal solution.



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"Another +1, but without the hoops and hurdles and obstacles. An integrated option would be the ideal solution."

(Videotrack, forgive me for stealing your line, could not of said it better)

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Got it. The message is clear. So, another +1 from me too, but without any hoops, hurdles and obstacles. With JohnJohnJohn's comments, in six years, interest in User APT's has resulted in a total of four people out of 32,711 members.

Imagine how many riffs, perfect chord progressions, chord inversions and phrases have been lost over the last six years by up to 32,707 users. Imagine how many more of these will be lost if it's another six years before there's a straightforward, integrated option...

Plus 1 from me too.


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Yeah...

I successfully managed to follow the steps and create an Audio Performance Track... but I couldn't figure out what the benefit was of doing that. I just don't see how this helps the process of preserving parts of a track performance without still ending up with a lot of head scratching and mental calculations and while still having to deal with a COMP issues at some point.

I appreciated learning about the audio performance track, and you spoke so highly of the things that can be done with such a track, so I am very curious about some ways that I could use the feature to my advantage...

But the Mac PDF manual only mentions "Audio Performance Track" once and gives no information about using it and doesn't even name it that in the menus, and the in-application HELP Browser also just has a short paragraph for "Save Track as Performance Track" and only states that it is for sharing a track with friends and doesn't even direct the user how to do it or take you to the menu item connected to it, which is NOT called "Save as Performance Track" and requires prior steps before creating it anyway.

Without your list explaining how to create the Audio Performance Track I wouldn't have been able to do it... so no wonder it is BIAB's best kept secret.

Obviously, like everyone in this thread, I just want the simple option of making a few clicks and saying "OMG... I love the riff the guitar does right there... let me freeze those bars!!" and then to continue working knowing that I have locked and frozen those bars in place for that track.

I hope Pipeline's prediction of 2021 is more than just a Pipe dream.
;-)


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We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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