|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073 |
In this day and age of even great singers undergoing pitch manipulation I found this article a good read. I have a decent ear for pitch but apparently not keen enough after reading this. We have three pitch editors (all included free with packages) including Melodyne and Logic Pro X’s editor but I’ve never used one on a vocal - due to my lack of pitch acuity I suppose  I do find them helpful to change a RT note here and there mostly to improve segues into vocals. But I can’t help but wonder what my perspective would be, if say, I was sensitive to +10 / -10 cents. In the spirit of full disclosure I’ll state that from some videos I’ve watched I feel that the soul of a vocal can be sucked out via some examples I’ve seen over the years. Your thoughts are appreciated. Interesting discussion here Bud
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,102
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,102 |
I have very good 'ears' for intonation. This comes from long practice on the sax. The sax is not in tune with itself, each note requires a little more or less pressure on the reed to play it in tune. No two saxes, even the same make and model have the same intonation 'signature' and changing temperature changes the tuning of the horn.
This means my ear is always 'on the job'.
Does that mean I always play/sing in tune? Definitely not.
Sometimes a little sharp adds brightness and a little flat adds tension.
Example: When Otis Redding on "I've Been Loving You Too Long" sings the lyrics "You Walked Out" he hits the word Out flat and gradually pulls it up towards in tune. This adds the pain to the song. Auto-tune would be a great disservice there.
Sometimes the tuning should be more like 'just intonation' with another instrument or voice to blend better. In the equal temperament system, that would be considered out of tune.
Whether your vibrato is mostly above pitch, below pitch or centered around pitch is another decision to make in the context of the song you are playing, and the relation of that note to the rest of the song.
In the end, IMO the question should not be whether the note I'm playing should be in tune or not, but how my manipulation of that note influences the emotion I am trying to express while playing.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073 |
Bob, that makes a lot of sense. We’ve always loved the sax and thought it to be much like the human voice. Janice bends notes around so much singing that she might cause an editor to crash
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326 |
Yeah.... my sense of intonation is a curse. I can hear things out of tune that others can't.
There was a show on TV Saturday night honoring Mac Davis as a writer and I swear that every singer in the place was either sharp or flat from the band. I don't know which was more of an affront to my ears.... the sharp ones or the flat ones. Of course also in consideration, many of those singers on the show were stars 30 years ago and probably haven't sang much in the last decade or so...... cutting slack where it's probably due.
The cool thing about melodyne is that you don't have top rely on your ability to hear things that are off. It will show you the slightest deviation from the mean. I can look ahead and see things coming that I know are going to need fixing.
Used correctly, melodyne can actually help you become a better singer because it shows you what you're actually doing. Holding back, forcing, drifting.... etc.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302 |
Perfect intonation often removes feel if you are only talking that +/- 10 cents Notes spoke of. However, when you get into Britney Spears levels of tone deafness, it is a must-have.
Musically, I will never forget what Victor Wooten once said at a clinic. "You are never more than a fret away from being on the right note. You can always slide your hand up or down and make it look intentional."
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,867
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,867 |
Oh, 432 again.
I’ve worked in the studio doing mixes of my work with many great engineers. They consistently do not believe me at first when I identify notes that are out. They claim no one can distinguish pitch differences less than six cents. I can, and I’ve proven it to them.
Having said that, I rarely adjust a pitch of my own playing. As mentioned above, that can suck the life out of a performance. I play two instruments known for being very ‘out’ with themselves, flugelhorn and soprano sax (Notes is right). My general approach is to only adjust a note if it is at the end of a phrase and makes the start of the next phrase sound wrong.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,523
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,523 |
I am pretty sensitive to pitch. I am a horrible vocalist. Because of that I have tried to adjust things in Melodyne for example. Sometimes it helps but more often it causes more problems than it solves.
With such ready access to electronics that can read frequency values very accurately, perhaps more people are aware of things being off pitch.
Intonation is consistently problematic with guitars and I assume is a problem in all string instruments. It can be solved for the most part but that only normally happens in high quality guitars. My Tom Anderson guitars play pretty true all the way up the neck but they are pretty pricey.
I find a lot of pitch issues in real tracks across the range of instruments I have listen too.
Minor pitch issues plus or minus 10 cents don't bother me in vocals. They are readily apparent in brass and woodwinds to me. Also guitars. Lower frequency notes on bass guitar are hard for me to distinguish. Perhaps that is a result of some hearing loss....not sure.
On time and on pitch...more than a little important.
I have never listen to anything Janice has done that stood out as off pitch. She is a skilled vocalist with a very pleasant voice. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...lol
Cheers,
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
I used to think I could sing until I got Melodyne and saw a visual representation of how close to the notes I wasn't. Very eye-opening.
Having said that.. I do sing. It has been my experience that some genres are more forgiving to a poor vocalist than others. I can't sing any James Taylor song, no matter how I transpose it... but my efforts on some rock and blues (if I get the key centered on my range) are passable to my ears.
And as Matt said, I think we tend to judge passing notes less critically than certain critical notes, such as the first note in a passage.
The possibility of sucking the life out of a performance with pitch correction is a real possibility... but it's equally possible (and I think quite common) to ruin a vocal by singing off pitch. I know people who pride themselves on never using pitch correction... but.. .I've heard them sing and IMO if they used a little help the performance would be less painful.
We tend to judge ourselves on the best we can do, but others tend to judge us on the worst they've seen/heard us do. Considering the fact that the same person might sing great on one day but badly on another day muddies the water in discussions like this.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 10/05/20 07:01 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302 |
And at the crux of this topic is that even if you can hear pitch so purely that you can tell that +/- 10 cents, that doesn't necessarily mean you can sing better to overcome it. I am flat about 20 cents on any held note, but the passing tones to get to the flat part are pretty good.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,073 |
I've been experimenting since my original post with Logic Pro X's Flex Pitch. I can readily hear a +/- 10 cent change in a note when modifying it with the editor. And if I play a note with a 5 cent change against the original I can hear the beats or "wavering"...guess that's why I've never had an issue tuning a guitar. However, when I play a modified note vs original in the context of a full mix I cannot hear the difference. I suppose some of that is due to having one of the oldest set of ears on the forum Bud
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,620
Posts735,177
Members38,517
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean