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simon.
would appreciate more of your thinking re latency etc.
cos i got to thinking more bout what you said re usb4. (good points.)
WHERE ARE THE BOTTLEKNECKS NOW THEN ?
if usb NOW is not the issue, AND obviously the audio interfaces are low latency under 3ms, AND assuming good drivers etc etc.
what latency bottleknecks remain ??
if you listen to the microsoft interview on that link i posted (2020 daw benchmark radio interview ) obviously microsoft is trying very hard with the core OS .
notice the discussion towards the end for example.
so lets assume core latency in the OS has been addressed, what remains ??
charlie fogle makes good points for the use of external MTR's for laying down vocals.
which some biab users apparently use. eg tascam. (with sd's). so what seems to happen is, in order to overcome latency some users send a stereo mix exported out of biab of the bed traks i guess to an mtr sd.
then lay the vocs down on the mtr sd, and then import the vocs back into their main computer daw.
and they then mix everything together.
in essence the mtr is being used as a vocal tracker to overcome any perceived latency useing the sound interface etc.
of course , the reason why a user perceives no latency on an mtr is that it has its own custom engineered OS to run things. as well as custom chip engineering. so its really snappy in operation.
given my first para and your comments on usb4/3 , do they still need to do that ??
ie do their vocs (or anything else ) on an mtr ?
i personally do all my vocs (and other stuff) on my main
daw , after importing the bed traks from biab.
i dont seem to have a problem. i also can use DM.
so what bottleknecks remain on a computer rig re latency ??
well, one thing i can think of is as follows, and i would appreciate your input.
as i posted on a recent biab thread, real time operation in a daw (whatever the daw ) is an illusion. basically i think of gas tanks/data buffers filling in advance of being needed.
i have trouble thinking this might be a problem on todays
computers unless the trak count and/or plug in count is over the top daft.
ie too much to do. obviously ssd's/faster cpu's have helped too. is the use of C++ as a dev tool impacting ??
but then again reaper (i believe is done useing C++.)
is snappy for me/fluid. so is it C++ ?
you know a lot of people always blame the OS.
but then i think of SAWSTUDIO.
imho a brilliant daw. remember that from years ago ??
(what happened to it ??).
saw could run on any junky slow computer and perform admirably.
i tested it , and purposelly tried to run it on junk. it was amazeing.
i reason because it was programmed in ASSEMBLER.
i guess it bypassed a lot of the OS, and the api's ??
so i conclude its not just bout haveing computers that are processing rockets or fast audio interfaces. what else is in play ??
WHERE DO YOU THINK THE BOTTLEKNECKS WILL STILL BE related to initial and round trip latency ??
your thoughts ??
will we finally slay the latency dragon ??
respect.
oldmuso.
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Assembler remains the fastest code, horrible as it is to construct. The greatest breakthrough in latency so far was ASIO drivers, where the sound card bypasses the CPU.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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matt. re asm. yeh i tried asm once. drove me nuts lol. i like compilers that dont lumber the user with big or any run times. just compile to a standalone executable. eg purebasic is one i think. re latency. still the question remains what additional work needs to be done with the overall architectures so people dont need to use a mtr ? obviously if rme can do it within the current OS architectures why cant other manufacturers. ? its a complex issue. look up slate digital new product. apparently i ms latency ? useing custom engineering ? outside my budget tho'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJCNAIoHY6Qsimon. notice the slate comment bout pcie versus usb re the cpu. best. oldmuso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/09/20 06:39 AM.
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If you are using a decent interface, one that is USB 2 or better, and it is designed to run native ASIO, not one of the wrappers, codecs, or proprietary divers common to the cheap interfaces, you should not have a problem with latency. Occasionally, you might have to tweek the latency and buffer settings but not often.
With a modern computer and the right interface, you should not encounter bottlenecks. In fact, you should not be able to physically hear the latency on a decent rig, at all.
I don't use any kind of out board mixers in my setup. My mic is plugged directly into the interface. I happen to run a Saffire Focusrite Firewire. At the time I bought it, it was the fastest interface standard available. Since then, the USB standards have left firewire in the dust. Even so, I don't have noticeable latency and rarely have any sort of issues or glitches no matter how big (or small), how many synths, or how many audio tracks are in the project mix.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Oldmuso thanks for the Sweetwater video. Yes, it’s everything you said. Latency as low as 0.7 milliseconds is amazing.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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guitarhacker. no ive been working the same way as you for ages. useing i5/ssd with low latency asio usb interface. with no problems. done tons of songs this way. but charlie fogle made some interesting points about people useing hardware multitrakkers (MTR's) with biab. as an alternative. in this thread. (see his posts). https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=619445#Post619445so it kind of baffled me as to why arent some people who obviously have a computer , (cos they are running biab), useing same computer to ALSO do the rest of their songs traks eg vocs. AND what else has to be done at the tech level on computers for some people to move back from MTR's. some people just seeem happier laying down vocs etc on MTR's. (thus there is a bacground to this thread due to charlies interesting points) matt. yep plus virtual mic modelling. wow ! but i'm very carefull cos the gear market moves so darn fast. whats hot this year might not be next. its for big studios. lol.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/09/20 10:42 AM.
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guitarhacker. no ive been working the same way as you for ages. useing i5/ssd with low latency asio usb interface. with no problems. done tons of songs this way. but charlie fogle made some interesting points about people useing hardware multitrakkers (MTR's) with biab. as an alternative. in this thread. (see his posts). https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=619445#Post619445so it kind of baffled me as to why arent some people who obviously have a computer , (cos they are running biab), useing same computer to ALSO do the rest of their songs traks eg vocs. AND what else has to be done at the tech level on computers for some people to move back from MTR's. some people just seeem happier laying down vocs etc on MTR's. (thus there is a bacground to this thread due to charlies interesting points) matt. yep plus virtual mic modelling. wow ! but i'm very carefull cos the gear market moves so darn fast. whats hot this year might not be next. its for big studios. lol. When I first started into digital recording, I bought a digital Hardware multitrack machine. Problem was, it didn't do drums particularly well. Kinda sucked actually. That's when I made the transition into computer based DAWs and a good interface. Not wishing to waste any of my gear, I connected the Multitrack to the DAW as a mixer board.... what a freaking mess. Distortion out the ying yang. Overloaded and turning it down didn't help. At some point I got frustrated and disconnected the multitrack mixer and plugged the mic straight in and waaaaaa laaaaaa... pristine, crystal clean, vocals.... never looked back. Sold the MTR on ebay a few days later. I know people who have the most convoluted wiring and signal path setup in their studios.... as for me, the simpler the better.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/13/20 06:00 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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It is a evolution thing. Back in the day I also was using external hardware. When things started to be moved to the PC it was just logical to integrate the hardware with the PC. Then PC's exploded and recording and mixing all went digital. But the external gear still worked at the interface input stages so no need to retire it. Until one day a friend (pro-level player) stopped by and took one look at my step up and told me that mixing board on the front end of my DAW was "coloring my music". He pulled it and I HEARD the difference! It never went back in. After that my closet filled with the old gear and virtually all is now done in the box. Much of the old gear is still in the closet to this day.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Sorry, late to the party here! I'd say the latency bottlenecks are currently in the software realm, whether that's in the OS, the driver, the DAW, or any plugins you're using on your tracks (most likely). Mac OS is still better at handling low-latency audio than Windows, but Windows is still improving. Hardware is not an issue I think. I've never personally used an MTR for recording, and never had any serious issues with latency using a DAW (usually Pro Tools or Logic for me). Then again, I have a Fireface 800 which was a $2k interface in it's day paired to an 8-core Mac, and I know enough to adjust my sample buffer appropriately, use the zero latency mixer that the RME driver has, turn off plugins, and/or freeze tracks before recording, so that the system doesn't add latency from any plugins that are in use. Theoretically if you do your tracking with absolutely ZERO plugins in use, you can get yourself down to zero latency. Plugins slow things down, as they have to wait for a certain amount of data to do anything - an EQ can't boost or cut a frequency if it only has one sample to work with, as it's not a frequency yet. For example, a 20hz sine wave requires 4800 samples at 96khz to complete a cycle, so an EQ plugin trying to boost or cut 20hz is gonna need a buffer of 4800 samples to be able to do it (though I'm certain there are ways around that, maybe calculating the slope of the waveform from a smaller buffer - I'm not a programmer). Yes, USB requires some CPU overhead to process anything incoming, that's why PCIe and Thunderbolt interfaces (and many Firewire ones) have less latency than USB. USB 3 improved that a lot. The bottom line though is what Guitarhacker said: In fact, you should not be able to physically hear the latency on a decent rig, at all. As for "colour", I use analog hardware when I want the colour - that's what my mixer is for, and my ancient Altec and Focusrite preamps. Otherwise my studio setup is relatively simple - 18 inputs and outputs, and a pile of clean preamps. I only have a patch bay for the occasions I want to bus through something else for a particular colour (like the handful of tube preamps I've built).
I work here
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I think the basic difference is you are comparing apples to oranges.
Hardware based digital studios are dedicated computers. They are optimized to perform one function, work with audio. Their audio interface is built-in, their surface controller is built-in, their display is built-in and their effects are built-in. Every component has been selected to work with audio. The hardware devices I've seen rarely require a firmware update, power up quickly and can be ready to playback or record audio in less than a minute. Many times the controls mimic audio equipment users may be familiar with so the learning curve is short
Meanwhile it doesn't matter if a computer is Mac, Linux or Windows based it is still a general purpose computer that require external accessories to perform almost any audio function.
However, the digital studio and computers put together for audio are losing market share to the smart phone. Once again, it seems that convenience is winning the war.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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