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BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK MAC TO BUY ??
i'm asking the question because the new mac announcements are out.
the problem is with mac "refurbs" some are coming with XEON processors which are beasts, and cost between 400 to 800 bucks.
eg.
https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/category/apple-mac-pro/26656

great value imho for any recording studio.
might get one myself for codeing/tinkering/running reaper biab etc. etc.
these refurbs also often have ssd's etc.//lots of ram etc etc.

so what do other people think ? , given a fixed installation recording studio ??
not a mobile one ??
what is the better deal ?
a new machine costing maybe double ?
or a refurb XEON mac beast ? with warranty of course ?
difficult call imho.
you can also get i5/i7 refurbs.

i look forward to peoples comments/views.

best.
oldmuso.


New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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I personally have a fairly heavily upgraded 2009 Mac Pro:

8-core 2.93ghz (Xeon X5670 x2, upgraded from stock 2.26ghz E5520 x2)
48gb Ram
Geforce GTX 960 4gb
512gb SSD (on Sata 3 card)
2tb HDD
USB 3.1 card

Mine is flashed so OSX recognizes it as a 2010-2012 model so I can run High Sierra (can run Mojave too if I want) rather than the "officially supported" El Capitan. It's great, and is a total beast (and even better when/if I get a pair of X5690's).

They are a great deal for what they are; however, I would only recommend them for tinkerers, and I would not recommend anything older than the 2009 model (even the 8-core 2008 model, it's not worth it).

Even with my 8-core beast, I still run into the odd thing that chugs along on it that is faster on my 2012 Macbook Pro - presumably there are new instruction sets in the newer i7 chip that the Xeon doesn't have.

But don't take my opinion necessarily - I'm one of those people who hates to update anything - still have High Sierra running Pro Tools 12 and Logic 10.4.8 and I'll keep them running until I actually find a good reason to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade everything.


Also, I found it very amusing that the link you posted had some G5 Power Macs for over $500 - the local craigslist has them pop up here for under a hundred, and still nobody wants them!

Last edited by Simon - PG Music; 11/13/20 09:11 AM.

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simon.
yeh no oldies//power macs.
lovely rig you got. nice ram etc.
i picked up awhile back also another refurb (win) laptop with, get this , a sata port on the outside.
believe it or not i never get win 10 problems.
i guess cos i keep studio stuff off the net.

trouble is this trend to cut down on numbers of ports these days ,really bugs me. and other musos.
whereas the refurbs often have many more ports.
saw one other day , refurb, load of usb 3/sspeed ports.

if one thinks bout it , for less than 1800 bucks NOW
a studio could have a win xeon beast AND a MAC xeon beast.
if one goes the refurb route. so all b ases covered.
i buy cars the same way. save 15k by going the low mileage
route

i will say one thing.
if tomorrow apple brought out a 10 ghz mac mini for 900
bucks i would be all over it like i love ice cream lol.
i'm hoping now apple is going with its own custom processors
we get past these boring low ghz processors.
its like we are on a never ending plateau processor speed wise. its the darn laws of semiconductor physics of course.

best to you.
old muso.

ps just this afternoon i was talking to a heavy tech guy who, turns out is a drummer. told him bout biab and what he could do with it. he loved the idea. he is ALSO into refurbs.
he is gonna visit the pg site and suss the product out.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/13/20 10:37 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
simon.
yeh no oldies//power macs.
lovely rig you got. nice ram etc.
i picked up awhile back also another refurb (win) laptop with, get this , a sata port on the outside.
believe it or not i never get win 10 problems.
i guess cos i keep studio stuff off the net.

trouble is this trend to cut down on numbers of ports these days ,really bugs me. and other musos.
whereas the refurbs often have many more ports.
saw one other day , refurb, load of usb 3/sspeed ports.

if one thinks bout it , for less than 1800 bucks NOW
a studio could have a win xeon beast AND a MAC xeon beast.
if one goes the refurb route. so all b ases covered.
i buy cars the same way. save 15k by going the low mileage
route

i will say one thing.
if tomorrow apple brought out a 10 ghz mac mini for 900
bucks i would be all over it like i love ice cream lol.
i'm hoping now apple is going with its own custom processors
we get past these boring low ghz processors.
its like we are on a never ending plateau processor speed wise. its the darn laws of semiconductor physics of course.

best to you.
old muso.

ps just this afternoon i was talking to a heavy tech guy who, turns out is a drummer. told him bout biab and what he could do with it. he loved the idea. he is ALSO into refurbs.
he is gonna visit the pg site and suss the product out.


Esata, great thing to have back then when USB3 wasn't around! Bit of a pain sometimes though. And yeah, it's best to keep Windows machines off the internet.

Great thing about refurbs is they're tested before they get to your door.

The new M1 Mac Mini is in the 3ghz range (3.2ghz I think). I don't think we'll see 10ghz processors anytime soon as we still need to overcome transistor speed limitations as there can be a few billion transistors in a CPU - instead we'll see the gains from improving efficiency and increasing parallelism (core count). This is why a 2019 Macbook Pro with a 2.6ghz i7 benchmarks nearly 6x as fast as a 2010 Macbook Pro with a 2.66ghz i7.


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I have an iMac Pro and the new iMac. If running BIAB, the 2020 iMac is a beast.

The M1 Mini should be great once BIAB is compatible. My only issue with it is that the current models are limited to 2TB onboard storage. BIAB isn’t the issue here but some of my other apps need 4TB for my workflow.


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simon.
YOU SAID "Great thing about refurbs is they're tested before they get to your door."
THATS WHY I LOVE THEM ! AND NO MADWARE JUNK LOL.

i'm curious about your own gonzo refurb macs.
reason i'm asking , is, i tried a macbook awhile back at the store.
(but maybe the store had it set up wrong.)
clicked on the gband icon , and i waited and waited etc.
so i was rather surprised. i was expecting quik snappy response.

so, on your gonzo refurb macs, once you clik on say the logic or gband icon, how long before the traks display ??

reason i'm asking is i really cant crit win right now.
and believe you me i used to roar years back lol.
i clik on icon , and bam , there are my traks , no waiting around.
all is snappy. "bam".
includeing biab generation.
i lay out chords/load a style/clik generate and "bam", playback very snappy. no probs. thus i can work fast.
in fact my system is so snappy i can be playing a style back , and going, "nah" not what i want and load another style, and it generates without me clicking the generate button again !! WELL DONE PG !!

cos i'm not lazy. i like to audition quickly style after style with my set song chord arrangement.
for example what i'm doing right now is a song is finished. vocs done etc etc in daw.
bed traks from biab done. xferred to daw, over dubs done in daw etc.
now i'm going back to biab and auditioning each and every style (its a rock song but i'm auditioning even sambas /jazz/country and every other style) to see what other "neat sounds" i can use from biab/rb in this rock song.

for example awhile back i heard biab "bells". "great". like it.
so i xferred the bells out of biab into the rock song.
this is why i love biab. HIDDEN NUGGETS. now i dunno , maybe others will think the song is junk.
but we will see. might replace the bells with real church bells. but it all helps.

youve got a great mac set up there with ssd's etc simon. so i'm curious.

i'm thinking of going to a dual system set up.
2 xeon refurbs loaded with ssd's.
one win , and one mac. just for giggles.
my beautifull wife , i told her bout your RME, and god bless her sher said "i'll buy it for you for xmas".
but i realloy dont need a new interface.
i might get one in new year for giggles.
but i dont like to spend a lot in case it goes on the "fritz".
(you sussed mme lol. i like to get down n dirty with tech. lol.)

i think frankly, and ive noticed this with friends systems is one reason they have win problems, is they are useing the one pc for everything. ie its used for songs and also on the net,
then the kids might pop on it doing something etc etc. so its getting used for lots of stuff and thus gets "gunked up". and of course nobody bothers to do any maintenance.
my systems are maintained.

i'm curious to hear from other mac users also whether mini or on upwards in the range.
maybe you are operating a high end new mac. how quik to load logic or gband or biab or other audio software ?

on my win laptop i have latency right now reported of 6ms.
i can get it lower if i want , but i dont bother. i have DM of course this system is only used for song creation. nothing else.

thus simon i'm not sure win is that bad these days.

did you notice in the other thread (see you tube) slate digital have got latency down to less than 1ms in an audio interface ?.
so this is protools native territory whereby big studios typically used those avid real time interfaces.

also every new budget interface i see coming out these days claims ultra low latency.

mike.
yes the imac is nice.
but i'm "cheap" lol.
i'm sincerely hoping now that apple is useing their own arm processors processing power goes up and prices come down.
apple are missing huge revenue markets imho.

other mac users.
please tell me if you are useing any of the new interfaces
from ssl, motu, and others.

best.
muso.


New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
simon.
YOU SAID "Great thing about refurbs is they're tested before they get to your door."
THATS WHY I LOVE THEM ! AND NO MADWARE JUNK LOL.

i'm curious about your own gonzo refurb macs.
reason i'm asking , is, i tried a macbook awhile back at the store.
(but maybe the store had it set up wrong.)
clicked on the gband icon , and i waited and waited etc.
so i was rather surprised. i was expecting quik snappy response.

so, on your gonzo refurb macs, once you clik on say the logic or gband icon, how long before the traks display ??


My 2012 MBP Retina 15" is about 9 seconds to open Logic to my default template (1 audio track with no plugins). It's a hair faster than my monster Mac Pro I think, but not by much. Might have fewer plugins on the MBP I think.

Both machines are ~6 seconds to open BIAB.

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

youve got a great mac set up there with ssd's etc simon. so i'm curious.

i'm thinking of going to a dual system set up.
2 xeon refurbs loaded with ssd's.
one win , and one mac. just for giggles.
my beautifull wife , i told her bout your RME, and god bless her sher said "i'll buy it for you for xmas".
but i realloy dont need a new interface.
i might get one in new year for giggles.
but i dont like to spend a lot in case it goes on the "fritz".
(you sussed mme lol. i like to get down n dirty with tech. lol.)


I'll have to do a loopback test on the RME, see how much round trip latency I have on my 16-year-old interface on an 11-year-old computer. I did that using the built-in audio on my 2012 MBP and got 7.4ms actual round trip latency at a 64-sample buffer (for a reported 4.9ms from Logic).

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

i think frankly, and ive noticed this with friends systems is one reason they have win problems, is they are useing the one pc for everything. ie its used for songs and also on the net,
then the kids might pop on it doing something etc etc. so its getting used for lots of stuff and thus gets "gunked up". and of course nobody bothers to do any maintenance.
my systems are maintained.


My Mac Pro is used for my day-to-day as well as audio stuff. Still pretty quick. And Mac doesn't get "gunked up" nearly as quick as Windows does.

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

i'm curious to hear from other mac users also whether mini or on upwards in the range.
maybe you are operating a high end new mac. how quik to load logic or gband or biab or other audio software ?

on my win laptop i have latency right now reported of 6ms.
i can get it lower if i want , but i dont bother. i have DM of course this system is only used for song creation. nothing else.

thus simon i'm not sure win is that bad these days.

did you notice in the other thread (see you tube) slate digital have got latency down to less than 1ms in an audio interface ?.
so this is protools native territory whereby big studios typically used those avid real time interfaces.

also every new budget interface i see coming out these days claims ultra low latency.


I used to work in a studio that had a full Pro Tools HD rig with a bunch of the old 192 interfaces, 32 channels worth. Hardware latency was very minimal - the issue was when you're using a plugin that causes latency while tracking (reverb, for example) which is why we had outboard reverb even if we only used it to track.

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

mike.
yes the imac is nice.
but i'm "cheap" lol.
i'm sincerely hoping now that apple is useing their own arm processors processing power goes up and prices come down.
apple are missing huge revenue markets imho.


The ARM Mac Mini is the same price the previous bottom end Mac Mini i3 was. It benchmarks nearly double the i3 though.


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simon.
thank you for those stats. (and the mac mini info.)
very kind of you.
i'll give you my worst case stats timings , from a complex rock song i'm doing right now.
(i'm win 10/i5 cpu at 2.6ghz, and ssd, a refurb. i'm ultrapak. system boots from cold bout 9 secs or less.
very snappy system.)

all stats/timings are after clicking on the respective music apps icon on the desktop.
i did all tests just now. current today.
1. boot into biab - 5 secs. (my songs typical gen time all rt's 5/6 secs also. but sometimes less.)
if midi of course much faster. instantaneous in stylepicker auditioning styles.
(very snappy auditioining RT styles with example songs.)
2. boot into realband - bout 7 secs.
(note RB audio test reports i can do 191 traks. please read my RB wishlist entry re request to pg to exapand this usefull test.)
3. boot into reaper. believe it or not. no matter how complex the song. bout 3 secs.
all traks waveforms displayed. very very fast.
(if you have time sometime , tell me how long reaper takes to load on your macs.)
some notes. i just tested on a complex song in reaper.
a. lots of clips/traks. bout 26 audio traks. all snappy. no
lag.
b. more plug ins than i normally use. bout 20 low cpu useage plug ins over 26 traks.
(combo of pg low useage dx and reaper low useage js plug ins. plus a couple of higher useage guitar amp plug ins.)
all snappy. no lag.
c. note reason reaper is fast is waveforms are stored in special files.
d. note reaper has pdc. reaper reports latency of 6 ms. i could get it lower. but dont bother. i have DM on steinberg ur interface.
4. clicking on win apps icons in desktop. nearly instantaneous eg control panel, this pc etc etc.

best.
muso.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/17/20 02:26 PM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Reaper loads in about 4 seconds. I don't have Realband (Mac) so I can't test how quick that opens of course. My monster Mac is still running a SATA-III SSD, not yet an NVME. That would improve things more.


My RME on my Mac has a round trip latency of 3.1ms at 192k and 3.6ms at 96k, measured with Logic and with the RTL Utility. My MOTU on Windows by comparison has about 7ms at 96k, lowest I could get it was 5.5ms at 44.1k.

Interestingly, in Pro Tools I measured a round trip latency of 16 samples - that's 0.16ms at 96k. I made sure I had latency compensation disabled, but I think it was still correcting it somehow.


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The answer: Neither.

The basic 8 core iMac is under $3,900 in the Refurb Store. There is nothing about BIAB tat will make it breathe hard.

That said, the new Mini won’t be a bad choice but not quite the bargain it seems upfront.

A maxed out M1 Mini is $1,699. This is with 16GB RAM (Integrated) and 2TB SSD. Integrated RAM cannot really be compared to what you’re used to.

A Magic Mouse 2 adds $99 or Magic trackpad II is $149. Magic Keyboard: $99 or $149 with numeric key pad

AppleCare+ adds $99.

Then you need a monitor. 4Ks run $400–700 or so. 5K is $1,300 (same screen as 27” iMac) — $1,600. 6K is $5,000–$7,000

I recently bought a 2020 iMac for my wife. With RAM from OWC, it set me back around $3,000 for one to meets her needs. Again, BIAB runs easily but not my choice for high end audio or AV.

The reason to consider a Mac Pro 7.1 is because you are doing high end AV — and then it’s the perfect machine. About $12,000 gets you a 16 Core in the Refurb Store with 4TB storage, a Vega Pro II PU and the Afterburner.

By “high end AV”, I mean beyond the capabilities of my 18 Core iMac Pro. Not many users need a 7.1 MP but AV pros are the customer. The 7.1 competes with Maya rendering stations running Win 10 costing up to $150,000.

That’s what’s available now. High end Apple Silicon machines are coming that will blow everything above out of the water.


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simon.
nice performance figs.
btw if i was to get a refurb mac, which is the earliest year to
run logic pro ? on mac version 10 os ?
hopefully i wouldnt have to go too far back.
i'm just trying to keep an open mind on mac.
a friend of mine just got a whaling deal on hp desktop.
700 buks tax in , includes the new slotted ssd.
very fast i5/9400.

mike.
wow those prices are way above my pay grade.
so no mouse or kbd with mini ?

re "neither".
so are you saying folks should wait right now ?

best.
muso.
ps anyone know anythiong good bout NI komplete usb interface ? just trying to keep open minded.
within my puny budget lol.
NI comes with a slew of muso stuff.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/19/20 03:59 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Yeah, the Mac Mini is only a good deal if all you need is the cheapest version and nothing else. They've never included any accessories with them right from day one, nearly 16 years ago I think. They were originally marketed for people wanting to upgrade, who already had keyboards/mice/monitors etc.

For running the latest version of Logic (10.6), it requires Catalina, so you'd have to look at a ~2012 Mac give or take. If you're willing to use an older version of Logic, you can go back further.

My opinion on tech is, unless you need the bleeding edge, wait. Just like how you like refurbs, you save a lot of money by not buying the latest and greatest hardware.

NI hardware is generally very good quality. Sound quality might not be as high as others, but they're typically reliable and sturdy.


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simon.
thanks for the info.
logic pro IS nice.
the other prob of course is, and i found this out the hard
way running big studio gear once is - the more gear, the more to go wrong lol. darn console cards going on the fritz,
and tape machine problems and tape shedding etc etc.
cost of 2 inch tape etc.
i dont miss it.

thats why i simplified. i found i was doing
more maintenance than creating songs.
and i'm happier now with a leaner approach.

i just like the mini cos of its small footprint.

heres what i dont understand.
i just dont know what is in apples mind simon.
if i can buy a hp desktop i5/9400 (v good rateing on
cpubenchmark.net) with the new nvme slotted ssd, and another drive for 700 bucks. why cant apple do the same. ??
my friend is really happy with the new hp desktop.
very fast. only neg is the madware. so gotta get rid of that
of course.

where i come from an old saying is "buy apple computers used,
and with the money you save , buy apple shares" !
some people have got rich buying apple shares donkeys years ago. very very rich in fact.

i'm looking forward to see what biab 2021 brings.
how bout a version for the 35 buck raspberry pi computer.
they have sold millions of units.
think of the marketing opportunity.

i'm looking at all the new audio interfaces right now.
NI/maudio 192 air/ssl2+/motu M.2/4 etc etc.

you ever try the harrison mixbus software ?
apparently its on very cheap right now.
(the harrison consoles (hardware) are wonderfull).


every happiness/respect
muso.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/20/20 11:50 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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I'm a gear snob, but certainly you won't find me with huge rooms full of gear anymore - plugins have come a long way, but you're still not gonna separate me from physical knobs anytime soon. I use a bit of tape here and there, but more for effect than anything else.

Yeah, best thing about the Mini is the size. I'm not a fan of how the M1 Mini takes any chance of upgrading away again though - all RAM and storage are soldered to the logic board (2012 Mini was the last to allow upgrades to both Ram and storage - 2014 Mini had soldered ram and SATA storage, 2018 Mini had socketed Ram again but soldered storage). Guess that's the tradeoff you take today.

Apple doesn't do the same as HP because they've intentionally segregated their market. People who want "just a Mac" can buy a Mini or Macbook/Air/Pro 13". People who want a nice screen and low desktop footprint can buy an iMac. People who want an upgradable beast can buy the Pro. If they offered a "Pro Lite" like many have suggested over the years, it would cut into at least a percentage of the Pro sales - that said, I personally think the difference would come out in the wash.

I was actually looking at my small collection of Raspberry Pi's last night and thought "dang, we're gonna be compiling for ARM Mac's at some point - BB could totally run on a Pi!" Absolutely not saying it's gonna happen ever, but it was an interesting thought for sure.

Buy whichever interface fits your workflow. Sound quality differences on them these days is negligible for most people. Buy a big brand name so you have less driver issues.

Never tried Mixbus or Harrison consoles myself, but heard good things.

Last edited by Simon - PG Music; 11/20/20 12:31 PM.

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simon.
1.mac mini soldered ram ? are you kidding me ? lol
how to win friends. what marketing guy made THAT decision.
jeesh.
if apple were smart they would flood the market with cheap mac minis, and win lots of friends.
there are two ways to sell i learnt in marketing 101.
low margin mass market, or high margin not many sold.
i guess theyve chosen the latter.

2.Bring on the PI. and steak n kidney with beer. lol.
they just upgraded the PI processor.
reaper and traction waveform run on it.
add in biab. WOW , potent combo.

best.
muso.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/20/20 02:30 PM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
simon.
1.mac mini soldered ram ? are you kidding me ? lol
how to win friends. what marketing guy made THAT decision.
jeesh.
if apple were smart they would flood the market with cheap mac minis, and win lots of friends.
there are two ways to sell i learnt in marketing 101.
low margin mass market, or high margin not many sold.
i guess theyve chosen the latter.


That's always been the Apple approach, at least since OSX started. High dollar low sales.

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

2.Bring on the PI. and steak n kidney with beer. lol.
they just upgraded the PI processor.
reaper and traction waveform run on it.
add in biab. WOW , potent combo.


I'd love to see that! Probably will never happen, but it'd be pretty great imo.


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simon.
and where is canadian industry in the tech race ?
it seems nowhere.
i lament the fact that canada spends billions on university education etc, but graduates have no jobs at graduation because most tech is manufactured in other countries.
any high tech retail or music store will confirm that.
the billions wasted on the education system astounds me.
it would be better spent makeing canada a leader in high tech
manufacturing imho.
what the hey do researchers at canadian universities do ? it seems they produce nothing of import.

very sad imho.

thus canadas deficit ballons as it imports all tech.
mics/telecomms/computers etc etc. imported.
it seems that the industry ministry in ottawa is asleep at the switch.
(well everything shuts down in ottawa after 5 pm anyway lol.)
what do these people and the national research council in ottawa do simon ?
dont they see the need for made in canada tech solutions ?
to create canadian industry and jobs for grads ?

pg is one of the few canadian companies in tech. and i support them for that reason.

for example in BC there are lots of brilliant tech people.
why isnt BC forgeing forward to lead in tech ?

simon. i, like every other musician, hunger for higher levels of computer architectures.
an end to slow boot ups, latency, bsods, boring low ghz processors , marketing games . etc etc.
i guess one reason i buy refurbs is as rebellion against (to quote the brilliant jack black in school of rock) "THE MAN". lol.

all people want is powerfull / inexpensive/no trouble computers to make songs with.

best
muso.
ps talking of brilliant little products , check out this 30 buck isk pearl mic on this female singer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTI1NKbMdIk


Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/25/20 03:23 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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The entry cost for a new high performance mac can just about stop the heart.
My 2013 Macbook Pro 15 quad core i7 16gb RAM 1Tb ssd was about $4k if I remember correctly when I bought it new in 2013.

But I've had it for almost 8 years and it can still run BIAB win in Parallels and Logic without any problems.
I expect it to go for at least a couple more years before its ready for a new life.
I run 2 large high resolution monitors with it. I rarely take it out of the house anymore.
To me 10 years on a great performing low headache machine is money well spent.


Personally, I'm going to wait for the dust to settle a little on the new processors. Then I'll either purchase a new mac mini (i own plenty of monitors) or a macbook pro, pretty much maxed out.

I'm very satisfied buying Apple Products brand new. I feel fortunate I can do so. That being said, I see no problem buying used gear as long as it doesn't have spinning disk drives. I think we're done with those.
If only PG Music would stop sending me one every year.


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mrgeeze.
i refuse to submit to any companys pricing demands.
for example my wife just got a wonderfull motorola new phone for a couple of hundred buks. she didnt need to spend 1k.
she loves it. 64 mp camera included if i remember.

better than spending crazy on tech, particularly with rampant obsolescence.
the mac mini is cute. but lack of upgradeability is putting me off.

frankly mrgeeze i think we need a new computer platform to compete with PC and MAC.
competition is badly needed, so prices come down for us consumers.
ive been hoping for something to come out of left field like a 10ghz system for 800 buks. still dreaming. lol.

i'm not spending large , when i can buy cheaply all sorts of refurbished machines that are processing beasts.
lots of them. take a look for yourself.
just google "year" your interested in plus word "refurb" plus "xeon or i7 processor" plus "ssd" plus "amount of ram you want". and youll see lots of deals on macs.

ive found repeatedly refurbs have caused me no problems compared to new.
i can buy (for the price of a mac mini), for 1600 buks or less a refurb xeon pc beast AND a refurb mac xeon beast.
so i'm torn. even tho the mini is cute.
(xeon is intels top processor.) so all recording software bases are covered.
simon imho has the right ideas with his macs.
(see up thread.)

what i'm watching for right now are deals on newer xeon, i7, and i9 refurb beasts.
the i9 , being new is tough to find in refurbs of course. have to wait a bit for off lease deals.

best.
muso.
ps arent the pg usb 3 drives they send us ssd now ?
my ultrapak drive is very fast. no complaints.
i even use the spare storage as "quicky" song backups,
together with my other multiple backup strategies.
i use the old drives for even further backups to other apps.


New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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justanoldmuso, that's why I still have a 5-year-old iPhone that initially cost me $50 (in addition to my 8-year-old and 11-year-old Macs). If it works, why break it?

I would love for the Raspberry Pi to become that third platform - the Pi 4 hardware is powerful enough for daily driving, just add a small SSD for speed and you're good. Maybe make an 8-core version to compete a bit closer to the new 8-core Mac Mini.

Fastest they've ever been able to make a CPU go is a bit over 8ghz (overclocking with liquid nitrogen cooling I think) - fastest stock cpu is still under 5ghz, so we're not gonna see 10ghz soon. That's why 32-core Threadripper's exist.

And no, currently the PG hard drives are still spinning hard drives to keep prices down, otherwise UltraPAKs and Audiophile editions would cost a chunk more. Band-in-a-Box can certainly take advantage of the increased performance from an SSD, but most people (myself included) don't notice the difference in practice. Heck, my current BIAB UltraPAK drive that I use for testing here still uses a USB 2.0 connection! No speed complaints from me, I can still load BIAB in under 10 seconds. System is a quad i7 with 16gb ram, so that helps.


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simon.
1.well the ultrapak drive fooled me lol.
its very fast. so i thought it might be ssd.
some ssd's are now down below 50 buks.
so i'm surprised ssd's arent used.
2. read back up thread a bit bout my comments on BC
province/canada tech. where is it ? cept for pg ?
i thought some 10ghz solution might come out of BC.
lots of hi tech engrs in BC. lots of smart researchers
in bc.
best
muso.
ps apparently lots of avid users use hp z workstations.
so thats why they are good used refurb deals.


New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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simon.
you got me thinking.
something wild lol.
could i dual boot (seperate partition) win and mac os's on a beast like this ??
so i can also run logic pro x as well as all my favorite win multitrak software plus biab of course.
costs 700 buks.
https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/hp-z440-workstation-xeon-e5-1620v3-3-5ghz-4-cores-16gb-ram-512gb-ssd-quadro-k2200-4gb-win10-pro-refurbished/14348023

ps. page down for detailed specs.
would appreciate your input.
best.
muso.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/28/20 05:29 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
simon.
you got me thinking.
something wild lol.
could i dual boot (seperate partition) win and mac os's on a beast like this ??
so i can also run logic pro x as well as all my favorite win multitrak software plus biab of course.
costs 700 buks.
https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/hp-z440-workstation-xeon-e5-1620v3-3-5ghz-4-cores-16gb-ram-512gb-ssd-quadro-k2200-4gb-win10-pro-refurbished/14348023

ps. page down for detailed specs.
would appreciate your input.
best.
muso.



It's certainly powerful enough, but as it is not a Mac computer it cannot (officially) run Mac OS. We can not comment on whether you can load Mac OS on it or not.


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simon.
thanks for your thoughts.
refurbs are cheap enough that i'll prolly just end up with a seperate mac refurb to run mac os.
it keeps things simple.
staples and other reputable companies have lots of powerfull beast refurbs.

so i'll end up with 2 refurb beasts (each xeon or i7).
one for win (reaper/rb/biab) and one for mac os. (logic etc).
and just xfer traks tween both systems.
i'm going thru a major rethink right now as to studio gear as to future plans.
what has really surprised me bout mac in my research is the time it takes mac apps to load. more than a few secs it seems.

one thing i WILL say. some uber tech development team that created a new uber hyper fast slimmed down audio only OS (prolly useing assembler code) that ran all win and mac studio apps could earn a fortune.
imagine a new os that booted into desktop in just a couple of secs.
its time for a new disruptive low footprint os designeed to just run studio/audio apps.
maybe i'll win lotto 649, and put a team together lol.

as a matter of interest , how long does your raspberry pi take to boot to desktop screen from cold ?
and how long to boot into an app from desktop screen ?

merry xmas to you and all pg staff.

all best to you.
i.am.a.silly.old.muso.tech.nerd. lol.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/01/20 05:37 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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The Canadian company iZ Technology makes the +++ Radar Studio +++ which many professionals consider to be the most reliable and stable recording platform available.

+++ Digitech +++ is a wholly owned subsidiary of Harmon but continues to be a Canadian operation.

So there are at least a few well known Canadian companies with technological chops. However, I believe Canadian achievements do not get the recognition they deserve.


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As someone who owns a new 18 Core iMac Pro (replaced my 14 Core) and a 2020 iMac 10 core, the answer is simple: It depends on what else you do.

Either will run BIAB easily with low overhead. If that's all I did, the 2020 iMac — easy decision.

But that's not all I do. The 2020 takes forever to do certain AV rendering. Neither can it run a pair of 5K side monitors… and it has only one TB3 bus with only 2 ports… That's why my wife has the new 2020 and I paid $6,000 more for a loaded iMP from the Refurb Store.

I bought the 2020 first in the hopes that I could use it for my other work and compared it with my 14 Core iMP — if so, I would have bought another. My immediate need was to upgrade the internal storage to 4TB so the 14 Core was going anyway. The Refurb Store had an 18 Core w/ 4TB onboard for not much more than the 14 so I pulled the trigger. I really didn't expect it to be much faster but it is noticeably so — well, not BIAB but that's ok, that runs fast enough.


No one needs a Mac Pro 7.1 just to run BIAB. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice. A 7.1 would have set me back another $8K or so after I bought another 5K monitor. Not made of money.


BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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Mike.
merry xmas to you.
those prices are way above my pay grade. lol.
actually its not so much biab, but i want to see what i can do with logic pro , and reaper on a cheap refurb xeon mac. (maybe biab later.)
now as reaper has new flashy video features which have captured the interest of video/film/tv users apparently.
i cant keep up with all the new stuff frankly.
heres kenny goioa (a grammy guy) showing vid features in reaper 6.
this guy really knows his stuff. a pro. way better than i'll ever be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n0V_KnXbRA
looks pretty nifty.
check these feature vids out. loads of new stuff. page down.
videos on doing video are bottom right plus new features.
https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php

things are moveing so fast in reaper land i cant keep up.
best.
muso.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/12/20 02:57 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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I'm like Simon and run an old 2009 Mac Pro that's been upgraded, though I stopped at the hex-core Xeons, plus I've got an RX580 8Gb in the mix.

As an audio workstation, it can handle pretty much anything I care to throw at it, including orchestral mixes in LPX (10.5.4 in my case) etc etc. It also works pretty well as an video box, and can run DaVinci Resolve 17 at FHD with some effects, though it starts to show its age with 4k video or if you start using video effects too heavily.

Plus the other caveat is that it has pretty much reached its end of life with Mojave (10.14.6) so as Apple continues to make the world look like an iPad, and developers who want part of that market are forced to adapt, this box will get left behind. Eventually, probably in the next year or so, many of the leading developer will likely drop back compatibility for Mojave and start requiring Big Sur. Then you will have the choice of staying with what you have, or moving on.

Personally, I'm going to hang on as long as I can. Not only am I cheap, but the future looks like M1-land if you are tied to an Apple (and I do have some stuff that is Apple-specific), and they will only get better and faster and bigger, and then some of the other pieces will hit the second-hand market and then we'll be good to go. Until then, I'll make do with my mid-2012 MBP and the old Mac Pro



.. mark.
(BiaB 2020 Mac; macOS 10.14.6; MacPro 5,1 56Gb 2xHex-Xeon RX580)
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

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