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Peter,
Will the problem with 8th notes being treated as 16th notes in BIAB in bluegrass styles be fixed in the next update for BIAB?
Thanks
For what it's worth I tried to send this in a PM but it wouldn't go through.
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Bob & Other Bluegrassers: Been trying to get them to address this for years, not only by me but with others, with only a token release of some 8th note based bluegrass styles. They understand by now that a banjo plays 8th notes for the most part. I have been playing for 40+ years and have never seen any banjo, mandolin or guitar player play bluegrass using 16th notes. I have 50+ instruction books and literally around a thousand tabs I have collected over the decades in binders and have only seen less then 1% of them written using 16th based notes, and that was in an old printed instruction book. If they get around to it, and that is a big IF, it would be a welcome change for thousands of bluegrass players who regularly use BIAB. I, for one, have adapted to the 16th note styles and only rarely do I have to resort to using one of the 8th note based styles, but I would like to see them redone in 8th base styles. On 7-25-2020 Peter wrote in the previous posting about this topic: "What BIAB needs is a mode to display the notation in cut time 2/2, and then you’d see 8th notes. In cut time each beat represents a half note. We did add notation modes like that for 6/8 9/8 and 12/8 but haven’t done cut time mode yet. That mode would be useful for styles like bluegrass, reels or sambas where you want the notation in cut-time (as if the tempo was doubled). Hopefully we can add that before the end of the year. " We are still in the month of November so Peter and crew still has a little over a month to hold to his tantalizing prediction that they hopefully can come out with that 'mode' he talked about before the end of the year. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=84391&Number=604839#Post604839
Last edited by jcland; 11/21/20 03:57 AM.
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Following.
I’ve raised this point about sambas, and the need for cut time.
I’m curious, is bluegrass music usually notated in cut or common time?
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Matt:
I went through quite a few of my 500+ tablature collection and each of my 50+ instruction books about 6 months ago and the vast majority of them (90%) were all notated in 4/4 time with (8) 8th notes per measure.
That is the way a banjo player plays the rolls on a banjo and it is the way most flat-pickers and mandolin players play also.
As I noted earlier very rarely will I ever see anything notated using 16th notes and cut time. The vast majority of bluegrass players, with the exception of fiddler players, don't read music but instead rely on tablature and as stated, the vast majority of tabs I have seen on 40+ years are written in 4/4 time with (8) 8th notes per measure.
There are hundreds of BIAB bluegrass songs out there and they don't seem to have a problem with the layout in BIAB. I don't, but I would like to see PGMUSIC follow through on fixing the 'problem' that seems to be evident in the bluegrass world concerning BIAB.
Remember,the easiest way to get a banjo player to stop playing is to show them some sheet music.
jcland
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I thought that only worked with guitarists (duck).
Thanks for the info. To complete my understanding, what is a typical tempo range for bluegrass notated with primarily eighth notes in 4/4? Also, when you play, do you feel it in 4/4 or do you count-off and feel it in your head as cut time? Bob has tried to give me tips on this, and I’m trying to compare the problem to samba music. Thanks.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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What is sheet music  Guitar player's sheet music. 
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Matt: Typical range for a slow bluegrass song would be between 60-70 BPM. Medium would be say around 80-90 BPM. Fast would be 100 to 120 BPM and ludicrous speed is over 120 BPM. That is the way they would play using BIAB and TABLEDIT. At jam sessions they are usually counted off as 1-2-3-4 or 1-2 1-2-3-4 and we feel them in 4/4 time for the most part. Obviously waltz would be 3/4 or even 6/8. Here is a TablEdit version of Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms, a bluegrass standard, written in 4/4 time using 16th notes. Very very rare to find one written like them. If you open it in TablEdit you can see how awful it is to read both the tablature and the notation. It just does not work well. https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/tabs/r/tab-roll-in-my-swee-13734-2840182382010.tefNow here is how the vast majority of songs look written in 4/4 time using 8th notes. This one is New Camptown Races, another standard as played by Scott Vestal, who happens to do many of the banjo parts for BIAB when it comes to bluegrass banjo RealTracks. As you can see, it is written in 4/4 time using 8th notes and is so much easier to read. https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/tabs/n/tab-new-camptown-ra-24547-231447102020.tef
Last edited by jcland; 11/21/20 08:05 AM.
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Ok, thank you. Very clear. And different from a samba.
Ludicrous speed - wasn’t there a Mel Brooks movie with that?
I count off a samba written in 4/4 at a tempo around 100 to 120 as 1 & 2 & 1, 2
so as to emphasize that, however it’s written, it should have been written in cut time where a half note = 120 etc. The feel must be in 2 not 4. The fast underlying rhythm would then be eighth notes.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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I watched a very informative stream last night of Brian Culbertson showing how he assembled "Colors Of Love" in Logic. He stressed that the song plays at 68, but he programmed it at 136 so he could do some timing things with the drum programming. The stream ran 73 minutes but it is a really good watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WkLwOiWFQ8
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Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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I watched a very informative stream last night of Brian Culbertson showing how he assembled "Colors Of Love" in Logic. He stressed that the song plays at 68, but he programmed it at 136 so he could do some timing things with the drum programming. The stream ran 73 minutes but it is a really good watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WkLwOiWFQ8 In BIAB, you don't have to do this kind of thing now that they added timebase options to RealDrums a couple of years ago (my suggestion).
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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You'd have to watch the video to know what he did and why he did it. Someone at the level of Brian Culbertson doesn't use Band in a Box to do tracks. He calls Chris Miskal to play drums, Paul Jackson to play guitar, etc... The video was showing how he built a song from nothing.
Plus I have never used BIAB. Always RB, so I have no idea what BIAB does. I'll take your word for it, but I will also add that I hate the sound of the packaged drums. Plus the fact that the drums are compiled means I can't replace just the kick, just the snare, etc.... It would be great if it wrote those drum tracks on individual tracks. Then if I wanted a different kick I could replace it rather than stack the one I want on top of the one that's there. I really like the sounds in Session Drummer but I have to go to a DAW anyway to use it, so why bother?
Really tiring of the limitations of this software.
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If Bob or JC will please weigh in on this, can I ask why this bothers you so much? What is it that you are doing notation on that it matters? Are you actually reading charts to play bluegrass music? And here's part of the reason I ask that to bluegrass enthusiasts who know the genre far better than I do. I was wandering in Youtubeville today and landed on this video. To my Yankee ears, which have never been exposed to bluegrass outside of what I saw on TV, this is what every bluegrass song ever written sounds like to me. This is the ashes of that band that portrayed The Darlings on the Andy Griffith Show, doing the song they always played. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-xfgKUV0Cw&ab_channel=BluegrassHeavenI can't for the life of me see why something like this would ever need to be charted. It's D to E to A. Over and over. And again. to my ears, every song sounds just like this. Plectrum picking, arpeggiated notes and scales as solos, just over and over. It takes a lot of skill to play that plectrum, but I can't for the life of me see why it's an issue to write this out at all, first of all, then to be concerned with 1/8 vs 1/16. What am I missing that the software (BIAB to you old guard guys, RB to me) is or isn't doing that doesn't measure up? If it writes it in 16th notes, cut it in half when you play it. I mean this stuff isn't exactly writing notation of the solos. Enlighten please.
Last edited by eddie1261; 11/21/20 01:51 PM.
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A couple of things on this Eddie1261:
First of all, it does not bother me at all. I have used BIAB since the time it came on floppy disks and have never had a problem entering a bluegrass, jazz, rock, blues, or any other style that they have provided us, using the spreadsheet style input system. If I did, I would have quit using it decades ago.
Second, if you listen to the Dillards (aka the Darlings on the Andy Griffith show), you are listening to old school bluegrass in it's simplistic style. You need to listen to progressive bluegrass players of today's genre who have studied the art form and know their instruments as well as any professional jazz guitar player. It is totally different when what was recorded back in the 1950's and 1960's.
When you say that every song sounds the same to you, I have the same feeling about what bluegrass sounded like in it's inception days. Today however,Pat Cloud, Bela Fleck, Bill Knoph to name a few, know their instrument as well as a seasoned rock, blues or jazz player since they have spent their entire life studying the instrument that is their profession. They have spent years studying the phrasing of jazz greats like Coltrain, Charlie Parker and Miles Davis just to name a few, and figuring how to transport it over to say banjo and are light years ahead of the earlier bluegrass musicians. I also listen to a lot of blues and if any music form sounds the same it is standard 12 bar blues and dixieland, but that is what makes it blues and dixieland. Music does not have to be complicated to be great.
All that being said, what really bothers me at the end of this conversation is the fact that PGMUSIC talks a lot but in many instances over the past 40+ years, have never followed through on their commitment to rectify certain know problems or customer wishes.
As far as I am personally concerned, I could really care less if they implemented 8th based bluegrass styles. I have long been able to work around them. I'll keep using the program and upgrading because I really feel that it is one of the greatest software programs to ever come out.
Hats off to Peter Gannon and crew.
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With both of the Wooten boys in his band, I never thought of Bela Fleck as being bluegrass. Victor Wooten is like the best bass player in the world and he is as funky as they come. I think of him more as a jazz musician. And Roy, with that crazy instrument he built to play his drums, is in the same bag. The other 2 guys, after listening to 3 each of their songs on youtube, I found to be pretty much that old school thumbprint of what I think bluegrass is. With almost no exposure to it I apparently just don't get it. Every song to me is Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Some are just played faster than others. I couldn't play lead anything on any of them, but I cold walk in and strum the right chords based just on musical knowledge after 65 years of it. Chords can really only logically go a few places as they move along in a progression.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Probably the same reason I could never get into Be Bop jazz. It made no sense to me back when it was hot and even today it makes no sense to me either. It all comes down to how our brains are wired. Coltrain, like Beethoven, Mozart and Fats Waller obviously could hear things musically my brain is just not evolved enough for.
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As Stewart Copeland said "Jazz fans are the best fans in the world. They sit there, and they TAKE it!!"
I never got the "scoobie doobie doobie doobie doo scoodlia be-bop yeah yeah" value of scat and bebop either. Great example was Dizzy's Night in Tunesia. When he was playing melody, great. As soon as he went off into the universe and did the scat solo parts it was as boring as my 3rd wife.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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If Bob or JC will please weigh in on this, can I ask why this bothers you so much? What is it that you are doing notation on that it matters? Are you actually reading charts to play bluegrass music?
Enlighten please.
Eddie, I'll answer your 3rd question first. No, bluegrass musicians don't use charts, sheet music or tab to play music. Your first 2 questions are more involved and the detailed answers can be found in the following threads I started. I started the first one on 03/01/2010. BIAB and its HUGE problem in handling bluegrass/newgrass/jazzgrass/Dawg. 03/01/10 https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62853&page=1I started the second one over a decade later on 06/28/2020. Here we go again, a decade later. 06/28/20https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=608114&page=1It's actually pretty important.
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