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#618471 - 10/09/20 03:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Thank you, MovingAir. I completely agree with you in theory.
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#618476 - 10/09/20 04:23 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 314
Simon - PG Music Offline
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Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 314
Originally Posted By: pinglis
I'd upgrade to Audiophile in a heartbeat IF it was 24 bit OR if it was a bit cheaper. I don't need the hard drive, I can download it


Moving to 24-bit would require a larger external hard drive, as 24-bit files are 50% bigger than 16-bit files. Our ~1.5TB of files in an Audiophile edition would end up being ~2.3TB. I'd personally love a 24-bit Audiophile myself.

Downloading is still not on the table yet, given the file size. We've sold thousands of copies of BB 2020 Audiophile, so that would be in the order of petabytes of data transfer for our file servers if we had it downloadable. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a downloadable Audiophile edition happen, for our customers who live in countries where we can't ship to. Perhaps lossless compression could come into play there, but I imagine there would need to be some backend programming done in BB to make that happen.


Originally Posted By: MovingAir
Frankly, I would love to see a 24-bit/96k version of BIAB. 24-bit to make it sound less "flat." 96k to make the stretching have fewer artifacts.
I already use the audiophile version, and even stretching the wav files has plenty of chirping going on.


24-bit 96K would be even bigger! Our 1.5TB would suddenly become ~4.9TB of files! Again, I'd personally love a 24/96 BIAB, but storage and transfer become an even bigger issue that way.


Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
I converted some RealTracks to 48kHz/24bit and they worked fine in the Mac version but not Win.
Yes I think they were recorded at higher than 44.1kHz
Upsampling tracks would certainly work at least the same as long as the program can read them. I think the question being asked is, will they work better for stretching if they were originally recorded at higher bit and/or sampling rates?



I don't know what rates the RealTracks were recorded at, but almost certainly many of them were recorded at 44.1khz. Upsampling a native 44.1khz won't necessarily make it easier to stretch, as technically there's some stretching going on to take 44.1k samples and interpolate them up to 48k or 96k etc, so I can't imagine there would be any sonic benefit in doing that. Now if the native files were at a higher sample rate, that's totally different, but given space requirements I don't personally expect that to happen in the near future. That said, I'm not in the development team so really anything could happen there.
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#618481 - 10/09/20 04:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
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Pipeline Offline
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Toontrack ships a 250gig 48kHz/24bit USB 3.0 drive for Superior Drummer 3.
I think some of the originals may have been recorded @ 44.1kHz/16bit but I asked for 48/24 maybe 10 years ago so I think that would of at least got them to start recording @ a higher rate.
You could put a column for the recorded rates in the RealTrack/RealDrums pickers maybe ?
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#618486 - 10/09/20 05:28 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 08/20/11
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Jim Fogle Offline
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My hope is for the 2021 Band-in-a-Box for Windows manual to be a completely revised manual.
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#618586 - 10/10/20 01:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Simon - PG Music]
Registered: 04/07/16
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MovingAir Offline
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Yes, that would get quite sizable. What about an option to ship BIAB on a 3.5" internal drive that people can install into their computer, rather than a more expensive external drive? I always transfer it onto an internal drive anyway. Then you could put it on a 4TB HDD for the same cost as what you're probably paying now for the 2.5" external drives.

This would also save HOURS of transfer time for someone like myself. Food for thought.


Edited by MovingAir (10/10/20 03:04 PM)

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#618596 - 10/10/20 03:20 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: MovingAir]
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Pipeline Offline
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+1 4TB 3.5" internal drive
Not sure what the shipping weight difference would be ?
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#618656 - 10/11/20 07:18 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: MovingAir]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: MovingAir
Yes, that would get quite sizable. What about an option to ship BIAB on a 3.5" internal drive that people can install into their computer, rather than a more expensive external drive? I always transfer it onto an internal drive anyway. Then you could put it on a 4TB HDD for the same cost as what you're probably paying now for the 2.5" external drives.

This would also save HOURS of transfer time for someone like myself. Food for thought.


This assumes that the user has the capability to install an internal drive, has the power supply to run it, and is not using a laptop.

But I would go with that as an optional purchase.
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#618768 - 10/12/20 02:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 1086
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Online   content
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Registered: 09/21/01
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Loc: UK
PG do a great job but i'd like 2021 to work right straight out of the box. with 2020 we're still getting patches in October.

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#618933 - 10/13/20 09:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 314
Simon - PG Music Offline
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Posts: 314
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
Toontrack ships a 250gig 48kHz/24bit USB 3.0 drive for Superior Drummer 3.


250gb of 24/48k stereo audio translates to around 241 hours of audio, assuming the drive is 100% full and only contains audio files - they actually advertise only 230gb of audio content, so it's more like 221 hours. Band-in-a-Box has 3,100 hours, hence the 2tb drive for 16/44.1k.


Originally Posted By: MovingAir
Yes, that would get quite sizable. What about an option to ship BIAB on a 3.5" internal drive that people can install into their computer, rather than a more expensive external drive? I always transfer it onto an internal drive anyway. Then you could put it on a 4TB HDD for the same cost as what you're probably paying now for the 2.5" external drives.


An internal drive is definitely not happening - can you imagine requiring the average user open up their computer to install a hard drive? Like MarioD mentioned, most of our users are running laptops, so that wouldn't be possible anyway. We could theoretically use a 3.5" external drive, but that would require an external power supply for it.

External 2.5" 4tb drives already cost about the same as a 3.5" 4tb internal anyways, so it wouldn't make much difference in price.


Originally Posted By: Pipeline
+1 4TB 3.5" internal drive
Not sure what the shipping weight difference would be ?


A 3.5" drive weighs 1.3lb vs a 2.5" drive weighs 0.3lb.


Originally Posted By: MarioD
This assumes that the user has the capability to install an internal drive, has the power supply to run it, and is not using a laptop.
But I would go with that as an optional purchase.


Even being optional and with numerous disclaimers, some customers who don't have the capability or necessary hardware to install an internal drive would still end up buying it, and then we would have to try to support these customers. Definitely not happening.
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#618945 - 10/13/20 12:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Simon - PG Music]
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Pipeline Offline
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Originally Posted By: Simon - PG Music
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
Toontrack ships a 250gig 48kHz/24bit USB 3.0 drive for Superior Drummer 3.


250gb of 24/48k stereo audio translates to around 241 hours of audio, assuming the drive is 100% full and only contains audio files - they actually advertise only 230gb of audio content, so it's more like 221 hours. Band-in-a-Box has 3,100 hours, hence the 2tb drive for 16/44.1k.

PG ships a 2TB but there's not 2TB on it, more like 1.5TB


Even being optional and with numerous disclaimers, some customers who don't have the capability or necessary hardware to install an internal drive would still end up buying it, and then we would have to try to support these customers. Definitely not happening.

"Definitely not happening" that has been PG's motto for 30 years. The whole system is built around PG thinking that all users are incapable and you have to hold their hand. That's why it has been stuck in the 90's for so long and is not as professional as most other software.
They could just buy a 3.5/2.5" hard drive enclosure usb 3.0 or better still have that as an option. We can't all be treated as the lowest common denominator.





US $7.02/ea


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#618947 - 10/13/20 01:03 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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I would appreciate having the choice of a large internal drive I could install. Then, perhaps every other year or every two, a downloadable patch or a flash drive. I’ve built all my own PCs since 1983; PG Music can’t offer a way to get updates that I cannot work with. I suspect more than a few others here are quite capable with any kind of update technique. Choice is good.
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#618959 - 10/13/20 04:38 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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I agree, many 'power users' could take good advantage of this option.
A simple checkbox like "I know what I'm doing and have the connections" during purchase could alleviate most support issues .. I simply copy/update the new external to an internal drive anyway.

Adding/replacing/updating an internal drive is not a problem for many of us, and if the alternative is adding a caddy option to accommodate the new drive itself, not a big deal either these days.

Just my thoughts ..
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#619005 - 10/14/20 05:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Simon - PG Music]
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Pipeline Offline
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4TB 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Purchase Option.
JUST DO IT !
Click to reveal..

I've had more 2.5" drives fail than 3.5", the last Seagate 2.5" 2TB Audiophile drive I got failed before I had a chance to copy it to an internal.
You know how long I've been at this, trying to get PG out of the past ?
It's like there's deep state blocking it all the time.
Don't wait another 10 years to see the light then do it.
Sorry guys but I'm just worn out from it all these days frown
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#619092 - 10/14/20 03:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 05/19/20
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Simon - PG Music Offline
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Posts: 314
I sincerely doubt we will ever have the option for a 4tb internal drive, for many reasons. First and foremost being the non-power users who don't have the capability of installing a hard drive - and for power users who do, they will have the skills necessary to buy a large internal drive and copy BB to it themselves.

Likely what will happen is we'll move to 4tb 2.5" external drives when we need to. We're currently at 1.51tb for the largest possible BB install (on Mac), so we don't need to switch to a 4tb yet.
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#619096 - 10/14/20 03:56 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Simon - PG Music]
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Pipeline Offline
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So that gives us no HOPE at all, thanks.
But hey, just go back through the forum and you will see what happens, 10 years is usually the lag time from going over the heads until the light is seen.
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#619099 - 10/14/20 04:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Matt Finley Offline
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Simon, I want to thank you for engaging in this thread and sharing information and your opinion. I may disagree on a point, but as I do not see the big picture, I respect your reasoning and have confidence the company will continue to assess the needs of the customers and respond accordingly.
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#619197 - 10/15/20 02:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
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Pipeline Offline
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See that's the problem, if you get new blood in they have to be loyal to the old guard and keep it in the past.
If I worked for PG I would have to do the same, that's why I couldn't do it, I couldn't be honest and give constructive criticism, I would have to limit and constrain myself into the 90's.
The Biab Plugin is a prime example, I pushed for that years ago and when it was finally released as beta I said don't release this as it will be a flop because there are too many issues and it's not working how it should. I FELT all the disappointment of users, and that hurt.
Then I spent years nagging trying to get it right (and that too was a massive fight, and just to get industry standard solo/mute buttons)
If it was just Adar listening to the users (like Attila does below in the RapidComposer forum) and being able to work on the BBW4 code it would be way ahead, like I mean WAY ahead, but he is so restricted, I couldn't do that I'd go crazy crazy .

So, should I bother anymore or just give up ??
because it really does take a lot out of me.
I don't have shares in PG so I'm not doing it for myself.

Originally Posted By: musicdevelopments
Feel free to post feature requests about RapidComposer in this thread, or start a new thread.
We will implement every sensible request, as it happened in the past.

Thank you,
Attila
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#619231 - 10/15/20 07:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: localhero]
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Rustyspoon# Offline
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Simon,
I disagree with this:
"I sincerely doubt we will ever have the option for a 4tb internal drive, for many reasons...."
"Ever" is very slippery word.

24 bit Audiophile anyone?

I hope that mr.G. sees this issue more openly.

External cases are dirt cheap. If I had a say beyond forum I would encourage to offer UltraPack and Audiophile on a customer choice of HD.

a) Outgoing, but cheap external spinner or
b)SSD shipped in external "usb" case, for those who do not want to tinker with stuff, but still want a fast / reusable HD.

With upgrades, I would offer an option of just new content on Flash drive. I believe, even Audiophile does not add more than 256G yearly, so I would offer exactly that, a 256GB (Usb3.1) flash drive with just new yearly content...

Yes, price point will change "somewhat" for those who would want SSD, but folks (and I am sure quite a few users) will see it as investment.

P.S. I think a 2TB SSD should be "enough" for next few years (until 4tb becomes more affordable), unless 24bit is coming soon smile

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#619300 - 10/16/20 09:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
See that's the problem, if you get new blood in they have to be loyal to the old guard and keep it in the past.

As a member of the old guard, and presumably the object of your comment, I think a few statements are in order. First, I hope I have never objected to your suggestions for improvement, nor anyone else’s. I do ask for clarification a lot, but when I don’t support a suggestion I just ask that the developers make the new feature a choice so I can work the way I think best for me.

Second, I support having choices, including a large internal drive. As was mentioned above I’m willing to check a box when ordering that says I know how to install it.

Third, I was taught that you catch more flies with honey. What use will it serve to chase away a PG music staffer who is willing to converse with users and share his opinions? He needs to feel comfortable interacting with us and being honest. I already stated I disagree with this one opinion but I can respect it at the same time. Will he come back here? I hope so. This has nothing to do with being old guard.

Fourth, I truly love and respect all the terrific suggestions of those who are new to this forum. But those newcomers should not presume that their ideas may not have been discussed years or even decades before. We all have our own style, and mine produces results, if slowly. Let’s keep things positive here and show the company we support them even if we disagree with their approach on occasion.
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#619314 - 10/16/20 11:14 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BIAB 2021? [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 6076
Pipeline Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
...As a member of the old guard, and presumably the object of your comment, .. What use will it serve to chase away a PG music staffer who is willing to converse with users and share his opinions? ...

Originally Posted By: Simon - PG Music
...An internal drive is definitely not happening.... Definitely not happening.


Opinion ? the not is in bold type, that's way more than an opinion, that's an executive position.
Old guards keep thing in the past, if you see yourself as an "old guard" then that's what they do, they guard things from being changed, forever.
"Seeing the Light" is exactly that, seeing the light, if you can't see the light it does not mean the light is not there.
As I keep saying I see users come over the many years, suggest things because of their frustration only to get jumped on and got rid of by long time forum members, and then they never return as you can see by their post numbers, yet they saw the light and told the truth.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
...I respect your reasoning and have confidence the company will continue to assess the needs of the customers and respond accordingly.

confidence ?? I'll be dead and gone before that happens, honestly.
Now that is the VERY thing that has enabled PG to stay in the past.
If you can't SEE that PG has been stuck in the past, then you are out of touch and IN the past, it is now 2020 not 1990.
I think most companies that started around the same time as PG are way ahead and up to date in development.
I honestly think it's all too deep seated to change.
If those that have tried in the past have been got rid of, I can't see much HOPE.
That's why I ask "So, should I bother anymore or just give up ??"
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If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!

Learn more about all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows.

More Bonus Styles for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows!

Download the latest update for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows and you'll add more Bonus "Half-time" and "Double-time" RealStyles!

Total of new styles is:
-111 new RealStyles
-80 new RealTracks variations.
-27 new RealDrums variations.

This includes:
-variations of existing 16th-based bluegrass.
-variations of existing celtic and train beat styles.
-new styles with both 8th-based and 16th variations.
-16th-based samba variations.

Learn how to use this new content with our latest video.

This FREE UPDATE for existing 2021 users also includes many enhancements to the DAW Plugin!

Learn more & download now.

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