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#626291 - 11/29/20 03:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT.
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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WISH #1. PG PLEASE CHANGE THE CHORUS CONCEPT (for biab 22.).
when i took music theory ages ago, a chorus was defined way differently than how biab thinks of a chorus in its biab world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure

i dont know who thought up the odd biab chorus concept and the original rationale,at pg, but it is "odd" per music theory.

in the world of biab chorus it might include "anything" from a C.d,C.d repeated to a bunch of bars that might include intros/verses/choruses/leads/outtros etc etc.

this feature has been in biab for ages. and i feel is due for a major overhaul /modernisation of biab.
it must also be odd for a music teacher useing biab as a teaching tool, only to explain that in the world of biab, the word chorus can have various different connotations.
please rethink for 2022.

for example i think of chorus as "we will rock you " repeated or "hallelujah" repeated. or "i love you" repeated. or a refrain .
this topic has frustrated and bugged me for ages in useing biab.

best.
muso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (11/29/20 03:09 PM)
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#626293 - 11/29/20 03:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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MarioD Offline
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In today's world verse, chorus, etc, are more common then BiaB's chorus nomenclature. But back in the day a chorus was one complete pass through a song. It was quite common to play the melody in choruses one and three and jam during the second chorus.

But I agree a intro, verse, chorus, etc, would be more in line with today's world.

+1.

{edit} typos


Edited by MarioD (11/29/20 07:40 PM)
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#626320 - 11/29/20 05:03 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 2728
Rustyspoon# Offline
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+1

Why do I want more mixer tracks that support more RT's / RD's?
Mainly for this reason! Since there are no specific parts for intros, outros, bridges, breaks / fills etc...

If more mixer tracks are present that support RT/RDs you can use these to bring parts of completely different styles or elements to build these "missing" parts of song structure.

Unfortunately new "Utility" tracks will not do that.

Given there is already a huge accumulated library of RT/RD's, I think only additional mixer tracks that support chord/bar changes will give a choice of variation and familiar workflow to build stronger and more creative song structure.

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#626326 - 11/29/20 05:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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+1

This ancient standard is annoying to those of us who understand why it is like that. It must be very frustrating to new users and potential new users to discover this fossil feature! laugh

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#626357 - 11/29/20 06:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Matt Finley Offline
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BIAB was originally developed to play jazz fakebook tunes. In jazz, a chorus was once through the song. Still is.
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#626414 - 11/29/20 10:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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Maybe those with older hardware need the old way ?

I have been through all this wishing for too many years,...
Until I found Reaper and scripting, no waiting 10 years, no constant nagging, no yearly xmas time disappointment.
If you need something just script it or ask someone and they will.

We might now be able to get the Plugin to generate your frozen saved SGU
instantly without any wav files in the SavedTracks folder.
Having a lot more tracks in the Plugin than Biab, all will be able to generate and play instantly without rendering wav's.
Could you use this ???? or would you still need something in Biab ????
Tittle Generator ?? Conductor ?? Jukebox ??


That's how I see it.


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#626427 - 11/30/20 12:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 06/05/12
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I played most styles including Jazz for many years, and including working in Cabaret and Big Bands. We always referred to the parts of a song being Verse and Chorus, (sometimes Refrain as well).

It was only when I came to BiaB that I found that here, a Chorus meant Verse and Chorus. I had never used that terminology before. Maybe it's a regional thing. Just sayin'
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#626480 - 11/30/20 05:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: VideoTrack]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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humbly thanks for the +1's support.
much appreciated.
i will be posting a wish every other day or so.
things that have bugged me for ages. and impact my creativity.
and i can only hope other users will agree and offer support.

the sad part is biab/rb could dominate the music software niche if certain things occurred. and moved into the future.

re chorus biab concept.
i had never encountered this till i came to biab.
and ive hung out in the past with way more able musos than i am. really serious pro musicians.
that knew every darn chord structure and inside chord and extension , and flatted this and sharpened that. lol.
these people technically blew me away. learnt a lot from them.
however we all thought a chorus meant the same thing.
so maybe it IS a regional thing.

once again, i really appreciate the support.

best.
iamasillyoldmuso.
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#626500 - 11/30/20 06:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Matt Finley Offline
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I do support having the choice. In my work I arrange for many non-jazz musicians and I have to use their terms. It would be great to have verse, chorus, bridge etc. as an option of how you lay out and label a song.

+1
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#633726 - 01/01/21 01:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Al-David Offline
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I, too, like the verse, chorus, bridge/refrain idea. Those ascriptions, I would think, are the most commonly used terminology in the contemporary environment.

+1
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#637098 - 01/18/21 04:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: Al-David]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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more chorus "quirks" that bug me in bb.
(feel free to tell me if i'm missing something. i'm prepared to look stoopid lol.)
1. lets say i have a song with 2 choruses, and in chorus 2 at bar 11 i want a different chord than chorus 1 bar 11, any new chord entry i make in chorus 2 bar 11 ALSO is reflected in chorus 1 bar 11. WHICH I DONT WANT. i only want the chord change in chorus 2 bar 11. NOT IN CHORUS 1 bar 11.
(yes i realise i can do the "unfold trick" to make changes. sigh. and YES ive been futzing around with F5 to no avail.)
2. what is the point of haveing a max 40 choruses in bb ?
if unfolding it would be huge. would it not ?
its enough just dealing with a few choruses, let alone 40 !
can someone please enlighten me via a song case study where i might use 40 choruses, particularly given point 1.
whereby a bar chord change in one chorus impacts others ?
OR am i missing something ?.
3. when i'm in various choruses, as well as knowing the current bar no being played in that chorus,(per currently.) it might be nice to know how many bars have elapsed total since beginning of song bar 1 chorus 1.
for example lets say i'm in chorus 10 bar 11, i have to figure out manually total bars since bar 1 chorus 1.
see what i mean ?

best
maybe i'm stoopid muso.
(but i have a worthless advanced degree lol.)


Edited by justanoldmuso (01/18/21 04:40 PM)
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#637111 - 01/18/21 05:23 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 08/20/11
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Jim Fogle Offline
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For # 2 part of the answer is so students can learn a part or become more proficient.

The first chorus generally is set at a slow tempo and the tempo increments higher by a small amount each chorus. This allows the student to concentrate on the mechanics in the beginning and build muscle memory with each pass.

Another example is to set each chorus at a different tempo or key signature so the student does not lock into one "favorite" tempo or key signature.

For # 3 there is a bar graph across the top of the chord sheet that indicates relative position within the song with a line to indicate each bar, a color for each part marker and a walking black color to indicate bar position within the song.
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#637182 - 01/19/21 05:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 01/07/20
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justanoldmuso Offline
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jim.
re #3.
with 40 choruses that position bar at the top gets mighty
crowded lol.
its ok for clicking on i guess for rough positioning.
thats all i use it for. but pretty hit or miss in a complex
song.
re #2.
ok good point eg music teachers might use it.
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#647144 - 03/17/21 03:48 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
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PeterGannon Offline
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> yes i realise i can do the "unfold trick" to make changes. sigh. and YES ive been futzing around with F5 to no avail.)

If your entire form doesn’t repeat, just set the chorus to one, and you then have a linear form, and are not affected by the (jazz) term “chorus” at all. It isn’t just a “trick” to unfold the song, it turns the song into a linear song, which addresses many of the issues you’re talking about.

And how do you get into the position of needing to unfold a song anyway? If you don’t like the idea of a song form repeating, and instead want a custom form, why wouldn’t you set the # of choruses to one to begin with? If you always set your songs to one chorus, how would the term “chorus” ever come into play?


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#647176 - 03/17/21 07:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/20/01
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Lloyd S Offline
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I use Peter's reasoning.

I always set my song to one big "chorus".
I always have the "Bar Lyrics" layer turned on, which I use (if I don't need lyrics) to make note
of "Verse" ("a" substyle - blue) and "Chorus" ("b" substyle - green).
If I need additional substyles, say for "Intro", "Bridge", "Instrumental", "Extro" etc.,
it's now a simple matter of just right clicking an existing bar number,
hit the "Define substyle" selection, and you can make any required additional substyles.

If I need to create a piece for printout, I save my BIAB file with a suffix to the name
and do any mods to make it look right on that file.

In short, I just ignore the whole "chorus" concept.
YMMV
LLOYD S

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#647356 - 03/18/21 07:19 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: Lloyd S]
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Dave Offline
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I haven't used the multi chorus facility for years. My songs start as a single chorus and are built, usually, with copy from bar to bar. Adjust melody, and chords as needed, and add lyrics. I then use 'repeats/endings' to print the song. The chorus option was just too limiting.
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#647357 - 03/18/21 07:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
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PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
> The chorus option was just too limiting.

Yes, the multiple chorus setting it is really intended for people practicing a song, or playing a song where the entire form repeats (mostly jazz or blues songs), but not pop/country. So as you say, just have the choruses set to 1 and lay the song out linearly, and use the repeats and endings features to print a typical leadsheet with 1st/2nd endings etc.
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#648220 - 03/23/21 09:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Pipeline Offline
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Originally Posted By: duselton
I am new to BIAB. I am used to thinking in terms of Intros, Verses, Choruses, Bridges and Outros. How come this only seems to want to support intro, outro and chorus? No versus, no bridges, I must be missing something.
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#648245 - 03/24/21 05:02 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: Pipeline]
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MarioD Offline
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Here is what I am now doing with song form markers: It is important that your songs are unfolded. I assign song form makers a little differently than ABC etc. I use the following letters:
I=into
V=verse
C=chorus
B=bridge
P=prechorus
E=ending

This way I can think in terms of verse, chorus, etc. YMMV
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#649913 - 04/03/21 07:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH#1 FOR 2022. CHANGE THE BIAB CHORUS CONCEPT. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Dzjang Offline
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+1

@Mario

Isn’t there this conductor possibility, which lets you change the order of up to 6 different song parts, using markers?

It can be triggered by midi, changed up and down, you can skip parts, repeat the verse as many times you want. Too lazy to look it up, though, :))

Maybe it could be an idea to update the conductor, cause the original question of Justanoldmuso makes sense. I feel I can already do most of what he asks for, but updating the flow is a great idea.
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