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#626758 - 12/01/20 04:16 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW.
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW.
fellow users please follow my logic. and see if this make sense. (please read wish #1 first. because there is linkeage to this wish here.}
1. in songwriting a song creator would normally think of various song "sections". start/intro/verse1/chorus1/music break1/verse2/chorus2/lead break/chorus3/outtro/song end whatever as but one of many examples of different
possible arrangements.
includeing bridges/key changes/instrument changes etc etc
you could have repeat refrains/choruses to start a song for example,and/or at end, or have various band only or orchestra endings. solo instruments etc etc.

to summarise LOTS OF DIFFERENT CHORD ARRANGEMENT SCENARIOS.

thousands in fact. not just the typical pop or rock arrangement.
for example jazzers might riff off a jam involving advanced chord structures.
other styles might involve exotic chord structures.
then , lets not forget also MUSIC FOR PICTURE. and the concept of FILM SCENES.
does one see where i am going with this ?
(so lets imagine the old "chorus biab idea" is replaced by a "biab song section idea".}

it means CHORD VIEW has to service lots of DIFFERENT TYPES OF USERS AND THEIR CHORD ARRANGEMENT NEEDS.

2. THUS., does it not make sense to make the chord view screen VERY FLEXIBLE ?
BECAUSE OF SO MANY CHORD ARRANGEMENT POSSIBILITIES ?
would it also be fair to say THAT, it would be nice if the different chord sections in biab, matched the musicians daw markers, thus makeing importation of a trak or clip from biab an easy thing to accomplish ?
ie the SONG SECTIONS IN BIAB MATCH PERFECTLY WITH THE MULTITRACK SOFTWARE SONG SECTIONS MARKERS.
this would have so many ease of use benefits.

3. GIVEN THE ABOVE. i offer two perspectives on how a new chord view might be designed,
so users can discuss. as follows.
A. LINEAR CHORD VIEW OPTION. and
B. TABBED CHORD VIEW OPTION.

lets look at both options.
A. LINEAR CHORD VIEW OPTION.
in this option the chord view would mimic a typical multitrack software display.
(reaper,pro tools,cubase,mixcraft etc etc.) EXCEPT with an interesting difference.
chords would be laid out in a horizontal time line. and vertically on extreme left hand side of display
would be each RT or midi trak or user trak, whatever that trak IS !(even a loop).
(my apologies as i'm useless at graphics, hopefully the talented pipeline can do a graphic.)
but i hope you get the idea.(note. chords can go anywhere in a bar. note also all shots/holds/
other biab nomenclature would apply as currently. eg F.d would mean play drums.
in the example, for example, A7.b is the bass on its own noodling around the A7 chord.
NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. could have 8 chords in a bar if you wish etc etc. just a bar regen if you wish. )
please NOTE , the blank area of linear chord view would be for USER OVERRIDES !
total FLEXIBILITY.

EG.(|| = bar start and end.)
<< HORIZ CHORD TRACK (like multitrack software>>>>>>>>>>
CHORDS> ||E.d,E.d,Dm7,D||C,C||G9,Bb||A7.b,F2|| etc etc >>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
drum rt *
bassrt *
pianomid *
gtruser *
etc *
etc *
to
16
traks.
now imagine vertical marker lines like in a daw imposed on the above graphic user defined markers.
whether a intro or verse or bridge or lead or ANYTHING. just like daw software.
THUS CORRELATION BETWEEN BIAB AND DAW. by the way, the blank area is used for bar overrides, and individual bar re-gens etc etc.. and F5 feature etc etc.

B. TABBED CHORD VIEW OPTION.
this is where pipelines previous wonderfull graphic comes in.
he added tabs to the current chord view.
(PIPELINE PLEASE ADD YOUR GREAT NEW CHORD VIEW TABBED GRAPHIC TO THIS THREAD. I WILL TRY BUT MIGHT FAIL.)
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=14844&filename=BB-Tabbed-Chord-Sheet-Sections.gif
WOW I MANAGED TO INCLUDE THE GRAPHIC.
its lovely what pipeline did.
tabs are user defined. not fixed. a tab can be anything. once again mirroring the daw software arrangement. now this makes biab very flexible, and any arrangement can accomodate.
in addition, music for picture people getting down a rough music idea.
each tab could relate to a particular scene in a film , or section of a scene etc etc.
the word "chorus" {in biab currently} would be replaced by the word "section".
(can have many user defined sections in a song up to 255 bars in a song section, IF 255 is still a hard limit !!.)
once again the tabs would match time markers in the daw/film software being used.
I REITERATE ONCE AGAIN. ALL MUSIC GENRES COULD BE ACCOMODATED.
ALL SONG ARRANGEMENTS COULD BE ACCOMODATED.
the tabs are totally flexible as to how they are named by a user, just like marker names
in a daw multitrack software.

the above i have thought of at length over the years.
feel free to add your own ideas.
if you think ive missed anything. feel free to question.
please note, the old classic biab current chord view would still be available for those that
still want to use it.
i sincerely hope my suggestions make day to day sense.
(please note , the above suggestion for chord view would also apply to REALBAND.
ie a new chord view for RB.)

best.
muso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (12/01/20 04:35 AM)
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#628448 - 12/07/20 10:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 2724
Rustyspoon# Offline
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+1
Nice! I like that pipeline's tabbed rendering. And especially now when we got so many extra tracks, it could be a very useful and cool feature. A totally re-imagined workflow. And I assume it will work both ways, for folks who like things on one page as it stands and those who would want to get creative.

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#628511 - 12/07/20 03:18 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Rustyspoon#]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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rusty.
exactly. and if people want to stick with the current chord view classic way. they could.
merry xmas.
muso.
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#628530 - 12/07/20 05:02 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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As mentioned in Rusty's post, here's a way you can do it below.
For Plugin 1 you insert a region in Reaper for 4 bars called Intro, Verse 1 8 bars, Chorus 1 8 bars, etc..
In the Region Manger window you can select any song section and it will zoom that section to fit the timeline, select that track and open only that section BB Plugin with chords.
You can create a GUI to get it to do whatever you like.
You don't have to wish for this, you can do it today.



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#628545 - 12/07/20 05:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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Pipeline.
i really appreciate your problem solving intelligence.
but lets take a song i did recently where i had to resort to useing 10 seperate biab "GU's saved.
it was a complex song.
ie intro followed by different verses/choruses/leads/outtro etc etc.

in this case i will now be useing 10 instances of the biab plug in. am i correct ? its gonna get screen complex.
thus its another workaround. i'm just replaceing 10 biab GU's saved with 10 plug ins.
INSTEAD OF 10 NICE TABS IN BIAB CHORD VIEW.

also, wont i end up in reaps with a trak "stepped effect" as follows in reaps ?

INTRO VERSE1 BREAK1 VERSE2
----------
----------
----------
----------


ok the text editor wouldnt let me build a "stepped effect".
plz imagine it. going left to right and down like a staircase.
see what i mean ? or am i wrong ?
instead of a contiguous linear trak for each instrument ?
eg 18 traks crude example graphic.
INTRO|VERSE1|CHORUS1|VERSE2|CHORUS2|LEAD|VERSE3|CHORUS3|LEAD OUTTRO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

where ------- = trak waveforms.
see what i mean ? the above is what i want. as per normal.
also wont i have to wait for waveforms to generate ?
whereas currently i dont when in biab chord view.
until i finally create wav's.

merry xmas.
muso.
ps its night sleep time here. lol.
i'll check back on the morrow.


Edited by justanoldmuso (12/07/20 06:10 PM)
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#628581 - 12/07/20 07:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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See if this will work for you.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2j7z5odmle7o9z/BBvst-Song-Sections.mp4?dl=0
The only issue at the moment, the latest version of the Plugin is fading the last beat off for some reason. I reported this.
And, as mentioned it will only show 1 vst at a time for what section you are on.

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#628608 - 12/07/20 11:30 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline Offline
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Here are 10 BB Plugins song sections.
New sections can be made by simply duplicating a track/s.
Tracks can be put in a folder.
It will show the chords of selected track only.
It can zoom selected section.
If you don't like a section, just regenerate all tracks for that section or a single instrument or a different style/key.
This is a lot quicker just regenerating the section of the song you need and not the whole BB song.
Each can have 16 sends.
You don't need to drag the wavs into Reaper, you can send them out to FX then render the Reaper project.
You can use the same track template for any project.
The magic in all this is being able to set the sync offset to start the BB Plugin at any bar, 1000 bars no problem.


There needs to be an option in the BB Plugin to save the tracks it's currently using to a selected project folder, that the BB Plugin will then read them from.
See resources in bottom pic.


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#628654 - 12/08/20 05:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
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Pipeline.
you are a standout. amazeing creativity.
and your brilliant way of providing solutions.
that reaps report is very interesting.

but i'm at the tail end of finishing off a very very demanding rock song right now.
how i solved the problem of such a demanding song was haveing
10 biab gu's. each one corresponding to a marker tab in
reaps , so lining up audio manually was a breeze.

ive decided to take a month off music to refresh myself.
i need a break frankly. i'm tired.
i have looked in detail at biab 2021, and the new features just dont meet my needs.

i really admire everything you do, and wish you the
greatest xmas/happiness.
muso.
ps. re you said.
"There needs to be an option in the BB Plugin to save the tracks it's currently using to a selected project folder, that the BB Plugin will then read them from."
THATS WHY I MADE WISH #2. save feature.
down further in this wish sub forum.
see RETHINK SAVE FEATURE.


Edited by justanoldmuso (12/08/20 06:05 AM)
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#629111 - 12/09/20 08:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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I think I need a good break from it all also.

This is all working out good now, I should be able to use this workflow myself.
I made it bring up the chords when you click that song section by reading the section name then selecting the track with the same name.
If Biab had scripting you wouldn't have all these issues and disappointments.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/or5bdmg63vgd1k4/BBvst-Song-Sections-10xBBvst-Auto.mp4?dl=0

and I can put all the tracks in a folder:


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#629124 - 12/09/20 10:42 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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#629159 - 12/10/20 06:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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Pipeline.
i think why some users get "frustrated" sometimes is they love the product, and see what a magnificent product it could be with a few additions.
its not out of being nasty or mean on purpose.
also ive found the people at PG very nice to deal with over the years.

let me ask you this, and please be honest.
do you think i'm being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for the biab next 2022 release ?
(ie changeing chorus concept to song sections, tabs in chord view, rethinking save functionality.)

btw i was lousy at surfing lol. but ok at scuba. absolutely loved it. and loved HAWAII and the islands.

frankly this xmas , my wife and i are thankfull i came through some very difficult surgery this year,
and am totally good now. and still rocking out like crazy.

merry xmas.
muso.
ps some on the fly surf lyrices.lol.

i gonna be brave, go surf those waves.
overcome those pipes, morning, noon , and night.
when i'm on that "board" , i never get "bored".

i reach the shore, but i still want more. always more. always more.
back out again; sunshine or rain.
cos its my life, and only right.
its the way to be, surfing those waves, its always gonna be, the life for me.
chorus
surfing those waves.
surfing those waves,
here comes another, always surfing those waves.

(sorry if you hate the off the cuff lyrics.)
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#629200 - 12/10/20 11:13 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Pipeline Offline
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Quote:
i think why some users get "frustrated" sometimes is they love the product, and see what a magnificent product it could be with a few additions.
its not out of being nasty or mean on purpose.

That says it all !
Quote:
also ive found the people at PG very nice to deal with over the years.
YES ! they are and I feel bad when I go off but it is as you say through frustration.
Quote:
do you think i'm being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for the biab next 2022 release ?
NO ! you should not have to wait years and years to get it, if all.
He who has ears will hear.
I heard you and said that's a good idea, but I don't have the source for Biab and don't know the Delphi. If I did I would just implement it and upload as I do in Reaper.
AGAIN, if they made that simple BB SYNC VST you could make those Song Section Chord Display Tabs in Reaper and Biab will simply follow wherever you click in Reaper.
Any chord change updates could transfer over as you click Save in Biab, Reaper will read the saved SGU and change the chord display instantly.
This one's done and ready to go for the BB Plugin:
FULL SCREEN PIC


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#629342 - 12/11/20 02:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 426
justanoldmuso Offline
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Pipeline.
thanks . i didnt think i was being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for biab i posted.
well the gear is disassembled now, cos i am moveing to a different area of the house for 2021 .
it forces me also to take a xmas break.
my prob is too many songs going around my silly brain.
ive done a slew of songs over the years useing reaps plus biab.
i just wish i didnt have to use workarounds with biab. implementation of my wishes would really help.

the new audient evo interface , that my dear wife bought me for xmas arrived.
but i cant open till xmas. lol. that was the deal. lol.
i'm curious to see how good the mic pre's are cos audient is legendary.
in summary lots to do in jan 2021. more songs.

btw. do you ever use these big boy studio tweaker tools ?
dawbench (very very interesting. i posted links in the pg tech sos forum.), and resplendence for analysing possible
issues, as well as RTL utility for round trip latency ?

i'm not haveing any win issues. maybe cos i keep the recording win pc off the net.
on dawbench are radio shows includeing interviews with reaps creator JF, and also microsoft,
and other interesting stuff.

a very merry xmas to you.
muso.
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#630606 - 12/16/20 03:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Pipeline Offline
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Here it is in Biab just using it for section chord display, chords can be copied to from the BB Plugin.


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#631101 - 12/18/20 09:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Pipeline]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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pipeline.
now take a break. youve done enough.
you have a merry one .
muso.
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#632676 - 12/26/20 10:41 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 01/27/20
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Roland S Offline
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I also struggle with complex song structures, especially when further developing a song from a pre-recorded jam session using the Plugin in my DAW.
For doing so I use a linear song structure without repeats.
Nevertheless it is hard to keep an overview of what to keep and what to drop and where chord changes should happen. Not to talk about the endless time consumed for re-generation and cross-checks of the changes.

If to start with some simple and easy to implement solution, the following solution would already help me a lot:

I would like to mark the background of particular areas in the chord sheet, using different colors. That should happen completely independent from the markers at the beginning of the bars.It is just meant as orientation for the target song structure. It shouldn't influence the track generation in any way.

I could then develop some overall song structure, using different colors for intended intros, verses, choruses, solo parts, bridges and endings. Afterwards I would then adjust the chords accordingly, by changing the chords, inserting and deleting bars, copying the desired chord progressions from other places etc.

I think it should be possible to add such a useful feature with little effort, as it just affects the chord sheet representation and nothing else.
The data for the "intended structure" may come from an optional add-on file stored next to the .sgu. This would ensure also compatibility with older BiaB versions, that don't know how to deal with this information.
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#632678 - 12/26/20 10:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Roland S]
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Pipeline Offline
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That has been requested many times:


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#632746 - 12/27/20 07:18 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Matt Finley Offline
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That looks terrific, Pipeline. I would caution for the benefit of those who are colorblind that the choice of colors should be able to be set by users. A member of my family sees the first two colors as the same shade of gray.
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#632758 - 12/27/20 08:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Matt Finley]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
That looks terrific, Pipeline. I would caution for the benefit of those who are colorblind that the choice of colors should be able to be set by users. A member of my family sees the first two colors as the same shade of gray.


Good point Matt. I have a strong Deutan (red-green) color blindness and many shades look the same to me.

As an option I would like to see a thick black border around series of measures instead of colors, much like the boarders in Excel.
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#632771 - 12/27/20 09:13 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. [Re: Matt Finley]
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Pipeline Offline
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Most apps have color pickers these days with millions of colors to chose from:


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Interested in a specific genre? These can be purchased for $15 each - pick & choose here.

NOTE: Xtra Styles PAKs require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition version 2020 or 2021. (Xtra Styles PAK 11 requires the 2021 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition.) Xtra Styles PAKs won't work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Learn more & listen to demos of Xtra Styles PAK 11.

Get To Know the Band-in-a-Box® Song Settings

Want to customize your Band-in-a-Box® song? Head into the Song Settings window to adjust settings for endings, tags, style variations, pushes, rests, chord embellishments, and more!

To access Song Settings in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows, use Ctrl+N or choose the Edit | Song Form | Settings (for This Song) option.

Looking to mix up the styles playing for each chorus? You can do that!

Want Pedal Bass in your middle chorus? You can do that too!

Hoping to fade the ending to your song? Also an option from within this window!

There are additional Ending options, RealTracks options (including half-time/double-time, 'bluesy' solos, Natural Arrangements, etc.), and more!

Learn more about Band-in-a-Box® Song Settings.

Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows Documentation Today!

Download the latest Update for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows to access the updated PDF manual and updated help file.

We've also addressed user reported concerns regarding Plugins Options, Drum Kit window MIDI events, the 2 bar lead-in for exported MIDI files, read-only Audio tracks, and more!

The latest update is available for FREE to all Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Windows users.

Learn more and download now.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Portuguese for Windows is Here!

Estamos ocupados e adicionamos 80 novos recursos e uma coleção incrível de novos conteúdos, incluindo 202 RealTracks, novos RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Estudos Instrumentais, Performances de Artistas, Bonus RealDrums "Singles", transcrições de RealDrums, MultiStyles PAK 1, Xtra Styles PAK 10 e mais!

Novas Funções | Pacotes

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Spanish for Windows is Here!

En PG Music tenemos el placer de anunciar la disponibilidad de Band-in-a-Box 2021 en Español. Despues de arduo trabajo hemos agregado, entre otras cosas, 80 funciones nuevas y una gran colección de nuevas incorporaciones y contenido que incluyen 202 RealTracks, nuevos RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Estudios Instrumentales, Interpretaciones de Artistas, RealDrums 'Single' adicionales, transcripciones de RealDrums, MultiStyles PAK 1, Xtra Styles PAK 10 ¡y mucho mas!

Nuevas características | Todos los Paquetes

New Update Available for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2021 today!

We've applied some updates to a variety of Add-ons, improved transcriptions and simple tags, resolved playback issues with MIDI tracks, and more. Plus, this free update adds the latest DAW Plugin 3.46!

Learn more & download now.

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