Yes, this really explains the solution that has been provided by the new cut-time signature that has been asked about. I actually really hope that this meets with the expectation of those inquiring contributors.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to this topic but I have been immersed in the new 2021 version and finally came up for air.
I looked at the new feature and it does solve the notation problem but that is not what my original topic was started about years ago. My complaint was that the spread sheet entry was a little awkward for bluegrass musicians who are used to seeing 95+ percent of tablature written with 8th notes and 1 chord per measure AND written in 4/4 time, not 2/4 time. If you treat the 'spreadsheet' entry format of BIAB like bluegrass tablature, you have to enter 2 chords per cell when the song is played at 4/4 time. Believe it or not, that is not now the vast majority of bluegrass music is written.
AGAIN, to me it is not a big deal, it is not even a deal at all as I have been playing music for so long and have used tablature and notation for 40+ years, that the chord entry of BIAB is 2nd nature for me. I have shown BIAB to quite a few fellow players over the years and the all say that the chord entry for BIAB is not what the are used to. I always tell them 'you'll get used to it' and they do.
So to make a long story short, the new 2/2 (Cut Time) feature of BIAB does solve the notion problem and setting an individual cell to 2 beats per measure solves any problem where you absolutely need 1 chord per cell to make the song come out right. A prime example of this, and the bluegrass players will know what I am talking about, is the song Jerusalem Ridge by Bill Monroe.
So bobcflatpicker, as far as I am concerned, you can mark this topic resolved if you are also happy with it. We can move on as there are more serious items that need to be addressed with the current 2021 release of BIAB.
I do appreciate PG Music attempting to address the problem it has with bluegrass music. While bluegrass is far from being the only style of music I play, it is near and dear to my heart. It's the reason I started self teaching myself music theory and learning scales, chords and arpeggios all across the fretboard. That helped take most of the mystery out of the guitar fretboard.
No other music inspired me to do that.
Based on the clips I've watched about the addition of "cut time", it appears to me that PG has just created a work around instead of fixing the problem.
I'm going to take one more attempt at explaining the problem by getting as basic as I can about the need. This affects how music is entered into BIAB and numerous other problems that incorrect note value styles create.
Here we go;
The full count in for bluegrass would be 2 measures long. The first measure would be 2 of 1/2 notes, the second measure would be 4 of 1/4 notes.
1 2 ,1 2 3 4
A good style example of this is C_TRAVIS.STY. This has been my default style for fiddle tunes for over 20 years.
Basic backup would be as follows;
If bluegrass had drums, one measure of rhythm in 1/4 notes would be bass-snare-bass-snare.
The bass guitar rhythm in 1/4 notes for one measure would be root-five-root-five.
The guitar rhythm in 1/4 notes for one measure would be boom-chick-boom-chick.
The mandolin rhythm in 1/4 notes for one measure would be rest-chop-rest-chop.
The banjo and fiddle rhythm in 1/4 notes for one measure would be rest-chop-rest-chop.
The melody for one measure would be in 1/8 notes.
The tempo would be plus or minus 200 BPM.
The drums would emphasize the first and third 1/4 note.
The bass and rhythm guitar would emphasize all four 1/4 notes equally.
The mandolin, banjo and fiddle rhythm would emphasize the second and fourth 1/4 notes.
In my never humble opinion, the epitome of bluegrass music is all instrumental fiddle tunes in 4/4 time at a tempo of plus or minus 200 BPM with the melody in 1/8 notes.
When playing, bluegrass musicians don't think about any of these things, ... they just play and feel the song.
Damn, ...... I've never attempted to describe bluegrass music in this detail before. I think I'll save it for future reference. LOL
That's why the ONLY proper and acceptable way for PG to create styles for bluegrass music is to do it in 4/4 time with 1/8 note melodies at tempos ranging from 160 - 240 BPM.
These styles should also be available in 16th note styles as PG has always done since a lot of people have grown accustomed to them being notated that way.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why PG hasn't done this simple fix.
While I haven't tried the "cut time" feature, it just appears to be an attempt at a work around for something that would be easily fixed by creating styles with the proper note value.
Thank you very much, Bob. I think I understand what you wrote. It is, as I described in discussions years earlier, the reverse of the samba problem. PG Music has samba styles counted in 4/4 at tempos around 180 - 200. I think it should be cut time around 100. Count them in as 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 +
The new fix accommodates that, notation-wise.
I would still like to see a piece of representative sheet music for bluegrass, with an explanation of tempo. I guess I don't understand why expanding the song wouldn't fix it.
And Bob, maybe you could Zoom / Share Screen with someone who has version 2021, and direct them to try some things. I would be happy to do that, though I wouldn't have any feel for what is right.
Moderator, could this whole thread be moved to BIAB for Windows? It's too integral to BIAB to be in Off-Topic where some who need to see it might not.
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Matt: Here is a page from one of my many books of a typical bluegrass song that would be played at countless festivals all over the world and is one that the vast majority of players would know how to play. I have over 50+ tabs of this song alone in my collection and all of them are printed or even hand written in 4/4 time using (8) 8th notes per measure, typical of bluegrass music.
Key of D with a speed of around 100 BPM, depending on your ability to play at that speed of course.
bobcflatpicker nailed it with this simple statement:
"In my never humble opinion, the epitome of bluegrass music is all instrumental fiddle tunes in 4/4 time at a tempo of plus or minus 200 BPM with the melody in 1/8 notes."
Thousands of bluegrass players (Fiddle, Banjo, Mandolin, Dobro and Bass) around the world understand this simple statement and have for over 70 years now and so have the thousands of instructors who teach players the nuances of this 100% purely American art form.
Sure you can show the music written as 2/2 time using 8th notes but that is not how the bluegrass musicians see it nor it is the way the vast majority of written information is presented.
If you go to www.banjohangout.org and go to Learn-Banjo Tab Library and look at around 100 TablEdit tabs, specifically Bluegrass (Scruggs) style, at random, you will see around 99 of them written in 4/4 time using 8th notes.
Fact: That is how it is and that is how it always was. We can't say it any simpler than that guys.
Giving us the ability to change the timing to 2/2 so the notation shows as 8th notes is really not a fix but is instead a work around. We should be able to see it written in 4/4 time using (8) 8th notes per measure and not have to change it to 2/2 time to make it so. True we my not get it since we are at the mercy of the RT's internal programming but don't say it is a fix when it really isn't.
How does Solder's Joy, 4/4 with eighth notes at 100 bpm, compare with what Bob is saying? He says 4/4 in a tempo of 200, where the melody is eighth notes. Does that mean this song, Soldier's Joy, is a slow Bluegrass song?
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How does Solder's Joy, 4/4 with eighth notes at 100 bpm, compare with what Bob is saying? He says 4/4 in a tempo of 200, where the melody is eighth notes. Does that mean this song, Soldier's Joy, is a slow Bluegrass song?
Matt,
I would never presume to speak for jcland but I do think he may have misspoke on the tempo. The tempo would be around 200 BPM for this song.
His song selection was a perfect choice. Soldier's Joy is a classic fiddle tune written around 1864 according to John McCuen.
Here is a link to a good version of it by Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.
> Sure you can show the music written as 2/2 time using 8th notes but that is not how the bluegrass musicians see it nor it is the way the vast majority of written information is presented. > The tempo would be around 200 BPM for this song.( Soldier’s Joy)
Jcland and Bob,,
Sorry to disagree with you both, but I don’t agree with your statements above, and provide data below to backup my position.
Bluegrass is correctly notated in cut time (2/2), not 4/4.. You may have never noticed this, because the notation doesn’t say 2/2. Instead it uses a special notation symbol for the 2/2 which is a letter C with a vertical line on top and below it. Cut time is known in classical world as Alla Breve and has been around for 400 years. This is because musicians in the 1700s also had trouble reading 16th notes like the bluegrass players do now. So they preferred them notated in 2/2 in 8th notes, but this time sig change from 4/4 to 2/2 doesn’t the double the tempo from 100 to200, the tempo stays the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve Making the notation easier to read (using 8th notes cut time instead of 16ths) doesn’t double the tempo - this is an important point in this discussion.
Many musicians see this, don’t know what the symbol is, and assume the time signature is 4/4. But it isn’t 4/4, it is 2/2. This indicates to me that the tempo of a typical bluegrass song is 100 (as jcland and “biab” says), not 200 (as Bob says).
But now that you know about that “c” cut time symbol, you will start to see it in official bluegrass published songbooks.
So let’s take a look around the internet and see if I’m right that b,uehrass is notated in 2/2 cut time ( C symbol with vertical line “cutting” it in two)
Let’s start with Hal Leonard “Bluegrass Real Book” . Here you have hundreds of notated bluegrass tunes, notated correctly and ALL in 2/2 (cut time, NOTICE THE C SYMBOL WITH A VERTICAL LINE I if you don’t have the book, look at the preview pages “look inside” https://www.amazon.com/Real-Bluegrass-Bo...C254&sr=8-1
- let’s keep looking on Amazon....these are the next 2 books I found that has a “look inside” view.... and the notation is also ALL IN CUT TIME!!
Also see discussions on bluegrass forums that agree with this, pointing out the correct notation of bluegrass as cut time (2/2) and also pointing out that many books use the cut time e.g.
The discussion on that forum points out the same thing I’m talking about, namely that bluegrass is notated correctly in cut time 2/2 and counted correctly with typical tempo of 100-130 not 200-260. For example, here’s a comment that “in [David] Grisman's books the distinction between 2/2 and 4/4 is very strictly observed, and in the grass volume almost all the tunes are notated in 2/2. “ E.g. David Grisman cut time example https://www.stretta-music.com/en/david-shady-grove-nr-183472.html
Now ask yourself.... if bluegrass is really supposed to be notated in 4/4, why on earth would Hal Leonard and all the other bluegrass books, including from famous bluegrass musicians like David Grisman go to the effort of putting cut time 2 2 signatures on every song in their books if the time signatures were really 4/4?
The implication of notation of bluegrass 2/2 is important for playing, not just notation.
Because it tells you that :
1. the quarter note tempo (beat) is about 100 for a typical bluegrass tune, not 200 as stated by in messages above. 2. It may help if you count these tempos as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & (or 1 & 2 & 1 & 2 &) 3. And this also means that Band-in-a-Box is correct in having the bluegrass styles play as 16ths notes at tempo of 100-130 and have ability (in biab 2021) to show cut time notation (showing 8th notes to make reading easier) just like the professional fake books and professional musicians/teachers like David Grisman above do.
I do appreciate that you've weighed in on this discussion again. As always, you've provided ample reference material to back up your point.
I'm glad you included David Grisman as a reference since I play a ton of his songs and I've listened to him since the early days of "Dawg" music. I didn't use tabs, sheet music or charts to learn his songs, I did it by ear.
I just now came back to the forum after writing a comment offline and was going to post it when I saw where you had joined us in the discussion.
The comment isn't a response to what you wrote since I hadn't seen your comment before composing it, but it is pertinent.
It is as follows;
From Bing;
"Cut time (or “cut common time”) is a 4/4 time signature that’s been rhythmically “cut” to manipulate rhythm and/or tempo. Cut time can be written as 2 / 2 , or as a c -shaped symbol with a vertical slash."
I don't know if "cut time" would be an answer to using 16th note bluegrass styles in 4/4 timing with songs actually written in 4/4 timing with 8th note melodies.
I do know that the very small handful of bluegrass styles written in even 8th's work just fine with bluegrass songs and fiddle tunes as they are written. The vast majority of BIAB bluegrass styles are in even 16th's. Especially the ones that have real tracks. I want real tracks backup, not midi.
Bob & Matt: It was based on 1/4 notes as that is how I am familiar with written bluegrass music. We are exactly on the same page when it comes to speed, you use 1/8th notes and I use 1/4 notes. The math is the same. That is also a very subjective discussion, speed. I have been to slow bluegrass jams where the song, Soldiers Joy, has been played as slow as 60 BPM using 1/4 notes and the standard since slow jams are geared to beginner players and I have seen it played at barn burner speed by the pros trying to out do each other. Nevertheless, speed has nothing to do with the topic at hand and I wish others would see that.
On the topic of books and loose tablatures, of which I have an enormous collection, I have Dan Miller's definitive series, Flatpicking Essentials Volumes 1-8 and the supplemental volumes 1-5
Volume 1 - Rhythm, Bass Runs, & Fill Licks Volume 2 - Learning How To Solo, Carter Style & Beyond Volume 3 - Flatpicking Fiddle Tunes Volume 4 - Understanding the Fingerboard & Moving Up-The-Neck Volume 5 - Improvisation & Style Studies Volume 6 - Improvisation (Part II) & Advanced Technique Studies Volume 7 - Advanced Rhythm & Chord Studies Volume 8 - Improvisation (Part II) & Intro to Swing & Jazz Soloing Volume 9 - Practical Guide to Scales & Arpeggios Supplemental 1 - The Guitar Players Guide to Rhythm, Timing & Groove Supplemental 2 - The Guitar Players Guide to Developing Creative Solos Supplemental 3 - The Guitar Players Guide to Rhythm, Timing & Groove
The thousands of examples written in over 1,800 pages is all written using 4/4 time and 8th based notes.
I have the entire Banjo News Letter magazine collection dating all the way back to 1973 from volume 1-1 up to Vol 47 #13, again just about all the tabs are written in 4/4 time using 8th notes.
Steve Kaufman's Championship Flatpicking Guitar - written in 4/4 time using 8th notes. He won multiple times at Winfield, KS
Pat Cloud’s Straight-Ahead Jazz for Bluegrass Banjo (Mel Bay) written in 4/4 time using 8th notes.
Tony Trischka's The Complete 5-Sting Banjo Player - written in 4/4 time using 8th notes
Tony Trischka's Master Collection of Fiddle Tunes for Banjo - written in 4/4 time using 8th notes
Not to mention the 7,800+ tabs at the Banjo Hangout. Majority written in 4/4 time using 8th based notes.
NOTABLE EXCEPTION: Bill Knopf's out of print Hot Licks & Fiddle Tunes - written using 16th based notes. Bill was my 1st instructor and in my collection of his hand written tabs, all of them were written in 4/4 time using 8th based notes.
At this point I am tired of pulling my books off the shelf, which is just the tip of the iceberg so to say, to gather this information so.....
You see we can go on and on and on about what is right for bluegrass music and what is wrong for bluegrass music and it still does not address the fundamental problem on how bluegrass musicians see written music, which in reality is really not a problem for me at all. Again, it is how we see it as written. It's how we were taught and it is how we teach each other. It's how we learned. About the only 2 things we come to consensus on is (1) that we can agree to disagree and (2) BIAB is about the best darn program I have ever seen.
Again, to finalize my position, I don't care if it gets fixed or not as it does not hamper my ability to use the program and has not for over 3 decades now. I guess like you guys sometimes do, I have learned to work around things.
I am lost when 2/2 is mentioned. That would be 2 beats per measure with a 1/2 note getting a beat. Would it not be correct to say 2/4? 2 beats per measure with a 1.4 note getting a beat?
The sheet of music above in 4/4 seems perfect. I am not following what the issue is if that music is correct. I used to be rather theory strong and I am just not following what the issue really is. It may just be that I am not at all familiar with the genre.
I also noted that this only seems to bother less than 5 people on the whole forum. Should they retool for less than 5 people where there are workarounds? I lost count of how many times I was told how to work around something rather than see it addressed for my minority of 1.
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1. How much did you make in 2023? 2. Send it to us.
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