Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#626810 12/01/20 09:50 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Jim Fogle #626838 12/01/20 11:39 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 722
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 722
Most comprehensive. Thank you

Can you suggest some biab specific implementations of midi wrt styles and instrument tracks.

I am interested in moving my backing track work from 100% RealTracks/Real styles to Some percentage midi.
Hopefully that will allow some greater control over the tracks I produce.

Some videos to help jump start that effort would be helpful.


biab2023(Mac)
Logic Pro X
Jim Fogle #626878 12/01/20 04:18 PM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Extremely detailed, and covers just about everything with great thoroughness. Surprisingly, I didn't note anywhere that the presenter stated what the acronym 'MIDI' actually stood for in the video, but he did use it in the text description below his video.

Certainly a big effort went into the productions. Thanks for sharing.


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Jim Fogle #626955 12/02/20 03:55 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Thanks for posting these, Jim. I just started watching the first one and will save the links for later.

Although I know a lot about MIDI and prefer it to Real Tracks due to the ability to edit it and customize it to my personal desires, I'm sure there are more than a few new things to learn.

Plus sharing the links with some of my newbie customers might help them understand.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Thanks for the videos Jim. I don't have a lot of time to watch them so I will squeeze watching them in during my 3 way popcorn guitar practice the last hour of the day :-)
1/ eyes and ears on video,
2/ left hand feeding me popcorn,
3/ right hand practicing finger technique.

Amusing but it works :-)

John

Last edited by bowlesj; 12/09/20 05:07 PM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Jim Fogle #629687 12/12/20 12:00 PM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
John,

The first video gives a pretty good overview. The rest of the videos dig deeper into areas skimmed over in the overview. I'd say 75 - 80 percent of what most people want to know about midi is in the first video.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Jim Fogle #629702 12/12/20 12:54 PM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
John,

The first video gives a pretty good overview. The rest of the videos dig deeper into areas skimmed over in the overview. I'd say 75 - 80 percent of what most people want to know about midi is in the first video.


Hi Jim, I have watched 4 of them. I think what I hope to learn is how some of these DAW programs sample instruments and get it into midi so it sounds like the instrument. So lets take an extreme example of a simple single note played with a sax and later a guitar (no attempt to articulate at all and in fact the exact opposite every attempt not to articulate). My understanding is the technology exists to get the midi to copy these two different sounds pretty accurately. How do they do this? What DAWs can do this? How accurate a playback does it produce in the end? Can a human hear the difference? Can a serious of humans do the blindfold test and guess accurately what the two instruments are? Where can I hear examples if exactly what I describe? What does it cost? Even if it costs too much I would love to learn about this and see proof it works from start to finish. I don't ask for much do I...lol. Produce a video like this and it would get attention. Pure marketing.

Last edited by bowlesj; 12/12/20 12:56 PM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
bowlesj #630042 12/13/20 06:32 PM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
To add to this testing even better to record a real sax to .wav (with attempt to have no articulations) and compare that to a midi version. Repeat with several instruments. Create reviews to compare no articulation real against midi. In short create ways for buyers to compare oranges to oranges and apples to apples. If they want articulations in midi they pay extra. I personally don't want these.


John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Jim Fogle #630053 12/13/20 07:02 PM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Jim Fogle #630095 12/14/20 03:42 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Emulating another instrument in MIDI is not all about tone. In fact as long as the tone is 'in the ballpark' it's not that important.

What IS important is copping the nuances of the instrument you are trying to emulate.

When a comedian does an impersonation of a famous person, does he/she have the same voice? Of course not.

Then how do we hear the famous person instead of the comedian? He/she studies the famous person's nuances, uses the ones he/she can copy, and ignores the ones he/she can't.

Same with a MIDI instrument. What are the nuances a player uses on his/her particular instrument. They are restricted by what the instrument can or can't do (for example a piano can't bend notes).

So for a sax, there are dozens of ways to articulate the note with variations of tongue placement, breath support, and airstream pressure -- there are ways to change the vowel sound of the tone by changing the oral cavity of the player - pitch variations of the reed are important, often scooping up to notes, or pitch vibrato that also changes the tone - grace notes mordents and other ornaments play a big part - throat growl and/or flutter tongue methods add various amounts of distortion - general tone gets brighter with more volume - and so on.

People new to MIDI often chase tone and forget about the way an instrument expresses itself. If you play that sax or guitar patch like a piano, it isn't going to fool anyone, no matter how good the tone is. If you play that piano patch like a sax or guitar, it won't fool anyone either.

Of course there may be times you want an instrument patch to not emulate what the patch is. Vibrato on piano? Why not if you are trying something new.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
Emulating another instrument in MIDI is not all about tone. In fact as long as the tone is 'in the ballpark' it's not that important.

What IS important is copping the nuances of the instrument you are trying to emulate.

When a comedian does an impersonation of a famous person, does he/she have the same voice? Of course not.

Then how do we hear the famous person instead of the comedian? He/she studies the famous person's nuances, uses the ones he/she can copy, and ignores the ones he/she can't.

Same with a MIDI instrument. What are the nuances a player uses on his/her particular instrument. They are restricted by what the instrument can or can't do (for example a piano can't bend notes).

So for a sax, there are dozens of ways to articulate the note with variations of tongue placement, breath support, and airstream pressure -- there are ways to change the vowel sound of the tone by changing the oral cavity of the player - pitch variations of the reed are important, often scooping up to notes, or pitch vibrato that also changes the tone - grace notes mordents and other ornaments play a big part - throat growl and/or flutter tongue methods add various amounts of distortion - general tone gets brighter with more volume - and so on.

People new to MIDI often chase tone and forget about the way an instrument expresses itself. If you play that sax or guitar patch like a piano, it isn't going to fool anyone, no matter how good the tone is. If you play that piano patch like a sax or guitar, it won't fool anyone either.

Of course there may be times you want an instrument patch to not emulate what the patch is. Vibrato on piano? Why not if you are trying something new.

Insights and incites by Notes



My uses for midi are fairly trivial. Eventually the Midi gets dumped and replaced by a real instrument. For example a vocalist needs to hear the melody exact so they can learn the song. The Idea was maybe there was a fairly inexpensive way to make it sound a bit better. I have discovered that dropping it an octave helps. It sounds like for my trivial use it is not worth any effort at all.

Last edited by bowlesj; 12/14/20 05:12 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
Emulating another instrument in MIDI is not all about tone. In fact as long as the tone is 'in the ballpark' it's not that important.

What IS important is copping the nuances of the instrument you are trying to emulate.

When a comedian does an impersonation of a famous person, does he/she have the same voice? Of course not.

Then how do we hear the famous person instead of the comedian? He/she studies the famous person's nuances, uses the ones he/she can copy, and ignores the ones he/she can't.

Same with a MIDI instrument. What are the nuances a player uses on his/her particular instrument. They are restricted by what the instrument can or can't do (for example a piano can't bend notes).

So for a sax, there are dozens of ways to articulate the note with variations of tongue placement, breath support, and airstream pressure -- there are ways to change the vowel sound of the tone by changing the oral cavity of the player - pitch variations of the reed are important, often scooping up to notes, or pitch vibrato that also changes the tone - grace notes mordents and other ornaments play a big part - throat growl and/or flutter tongue methods add various amounts of distortion - general tone gets brighter with more volume - and so on.

People new to MIDI often chase tone and forget about the way an instrument expresses itself. If you play that sax or guitar patch like a piano, it isn't going to fool anyone, no matter how good the tone is. If you play that piano patch like a sax or guitar, it won't fool anyone either.

Of course there may be times you want an instrument patch to not emulate what the patch is. Vibrato on piano? Why not if you are trying something new.

Insights and incites by Notes



I agree with Notes.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
bowlesj #630109 12/14/20 04:53 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Originally Posted By: bowlesj

My uses for midi are fairly trivial. Eventually the Midi gets dumped and replaced by a real instrument. For example a vocalist needs to hear the melody exact so they can learn the song. The Idea was maybe there was a fairly inexpensive way to make it sound a bit better. I have discovered that dropping it an octave help. It sounds like for my trivial use it is not worth any effort at all.


I have found that using vibes works best for a vocalist. Maybe for your other uses also.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
MarioD #630112 12/14/20 05:10 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I agree MarioD, Vibes is my normal choice. If BIAB had the option to play in the octave it is written in that would help. It plays ah octave higher which makes it sound tiny.

Last edited by bowlesj; 12/14/20 05:10 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Jim Fogle #630121 12/14/20 05:57 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
John, if you want to change the register a MIDI instrument plays in, without transposing the notation, go to Preferences, Channels. Subtract 1 from the octave for that instrument. I’m not at a computer but I think it’s the second column. Bass, for example, is -1. Do that for Melody or Soloist where your vibes are.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Matt Finley #630151 12/14/20 09:02 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
John, if you want to change the register a MIDI instrument plays in, without transposing the notation, go to Preferences, Channels. Subtract 1 from the octave for that instrument. I’m not at a computer but I think it’s the second column. Bass, for example, is -1. Do that for Melody or Soloist where your vibes are.


Gee thanks Matt! I tried that and it works.

So this is interesting. As shown in the attached picture I opened a blank file in BIAB and entered middle C on every quarter note for 2 bars and set it to play over and over in a loop then I took a computer tuner (NCH Perfect Pitch) and tested it and at channel 4 octave setting zero it correctly plays C4. However again as the picture shows it displays as C5. A bug?

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
Middle_C_C4.png (122.16 KB, 98 downloads)
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/14/20 09:03 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Jim Fogle #630152 12/14/20 09:08 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
John, there are possibly two things happening here.

BIAB has several ways to do transposition, and this gives you the option to see the actual pitch being played, or not. If you want more details, write back and tell me what you want to see.

And, there is not universal agreement on what note Middle C is according to manufacturers of MIDI equipment and music software programmers. Some say C4, some say C5. Not smart.

Does that help?


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Matt Finley #630153 12/14/20 09:15 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
.............

And, there is not universal agreement on what note Middle C is according to manufacturers of MIDI equipment and music software programmers. Some say C4, some say C5. Not smart.

Does that help?


Adding to the confusion is that fact that I have some software that uses C3! Plus they all have Middle C at MIDI note 60!


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Jim Fogle #630154 12/14/20 09:20 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,797
Yeah, I didn't want to scare John too much by bringing up C3.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
MarioD #630155 12/14/20 09:26 AM
Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 794
I always thought Google was king :-)

I googled "what is middle c in scientific notation" and got.
Middle C (the fourth C key from left on a standard 88-key piano keyboard) is designated C4 in scientific pitch notation, and c′ in Helmholtz pitch notation; it is note number 60 in MIDI notation.

Here is the C Note Wiki

"Wiki SEE Wiki Do" or is that "Wiki C Wiki Do" :-)


Last edited by bowlesj; 12/14/20 09:37 AM.

John Bowles
My playing in my 20s:
https://www.reverbnation.com/johnbowles
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,391
Posts732,465
Members38,440
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
Ernest J, Izzy, BenChaz, Csofi, mmpartee
38,439 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 195
Al-David 124
DC Ron 113
dcuny 87
rsdean 83
Today's Birthdays
CeeDee, SethMould
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5