I'm a new user that just jumped on board a few months ago. I got the 2020 Audiophile version on sale from Sweetwater back in November. I've been getting my feet wet by trying to do a simple Christmas song Silver Bells in a country style.
I don't want any 7th's or anything like that in the song. I'm simply trying to form a song with straight A - D - E chords. No matter what style I choose (currently using "Swabbie autoharp folk waltz") BIAB is adding in what sounds like a 7th on some parts especially toward the end of the song and it doesn't work with a song like that. It's like it's forcing a blues feel on the song so to speak?
I've searched but found almost no info on this. I read an old post and someone suggested adjusting the natural settings. I did but it made no difference.
I mainly do acoustic country music so I'm kind of panicking that I can't get BIAB to simply play straight chords. Hopefully I'm overlooking something? Any input would be appreciated.
Hi Noel. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
I just tried the changes you suggested and I tried different styles and it didn't help.
I'm doing this in the key of A and I have the key signature set to A. The last verse does a key change to B although the actual key change begins with F# (The 5 in the progression). The transition looks like this (E for 2 bars at end of verse) then (F#... for a rest on the F# chord then the verse starts on B). I went in to bar settings and set the key signature change to F# and then tried B and that didn't help either.
I noticed it's only adding the erroneous notes after the key change. Everything before that while in the key of A is correct.
Then I transposed the song so it started in B and the key change was G# and it did the same thing. The first part of the song was ok until it got to the key change later. I did that thinking maybe the samples in the key of B were just that way but it's not the case because it plays correctly at the beginning when set to B.
Can you try changing to a straight MIDI style like ZZWALTZ and see what happens? Otherwise perhaps you can post your file here and someone can take a look at it.
When you did the key change, did you set the new key?
Just in case you haven't discovered this yet...
To set the new key, click on the bar where the new key starts, press F5 and then set the new key. (You can also access this by right-clicking on the chordsheet and selecting "Bar Settings".)
By doing this you are telling BIAB to select chords that are friendly to the key.
After you've made the above change, you'll need to unfreeze any tracks and regenerate the song for the change to take effect.
Also, if you have any tracks on the Utility Tracks, these will need to be regenerated individually by right-clicking on each track and selecting "Track Actions".
Yes, I set the key change in Bar settings (F5) and when I transposed the entire song I double checked the bar where the key change occurs. I always use F4 to regenerate whenever I make a change.
I don't see Utility Tracks anywhere. I'm running the 2020 version. When I search online the only info I can find regarding Utility Tracks is for the 2021 version.
Sorry, Shane. My mistake. I forgot that you had 2020 even though you mention it clearly in your original post.
Given that the song plays ok when set to key B at the start, and not ok when you have a section set to B, this might be a bug if the behaviour is consistent and reproducible.
Can you please let me know what style you are using and I'll set a chord sheet and see if I can get the problem to occur.
It would also be handy to know what chords you are using.
Can you try changing to a straight MIDI style like ZZWALTZ and see what happens? Otherwise perhaps you can post your file here and someone can take a look at it.
Good luck! LLOYD S
Hi Lloyd.
Loading the ZZWALTZ style worked. It sounds exactly like I want it to, except it's not the audiophile realtracks.
It's possible it's a chord mapping inconsistency. They arise from time to time. That doesn't fully explain why everything plays OK when you set the main key to B, though.
If you want, you can upload your SGU file to this thread and we can all give it a run through a few times to test it.
I got the same results as you and I have BIAB 2021.
Working with the file [Swabbie]...
If I generated it, in the key change region, B7 was nearly always played rather than B (despite all above song-based settings to disable Natural Arrangement and Force Simple Chords).
However, if I transposed the song to B, and the key sig. was set to B, the B chord was generated.
This is strange.
I have alerted the Development Team to this thread. They will read what's written and will test the files. So please let me know if my solution below works.
In the meantime, I have a potential solution for you that hopefully works on BIAB 2020...
If you go into "Options | Preferences" and select "Arrange", you'll see an option to set "Natural Arrangement" to "Never".
When I set that, and set Song Settings to "Force Simple Arrangement", the generation was ok. This option in "Arrange" is a Global Option and doing the above globally disables it.
I see what you mean about the 7ths. You might try this and see how it sounds. (using the SWABBIE file) - Copy only the chords from bar 53 at the key change to the end - Open a "new" instance of BIAB - Set the key to B - Paste those chords to the new grid
See if that sounds the way you want for the last part of the song. That might help figure out where BIAB is going wrong. (I think you can use Copy/Paste in BIAB 2020, I forget!)
I got the same results as you and I have BIAB 2021.
Working with the file [Swabbie]...
If I generated it, in the key change region, B7 was nearly always played rather than B (despite all above song-based settings to disable Natural Arrangement and Force Simple Chords).
However, if I transposed the song to B, and the key sig. was set to B, the B chord was generated.
This is strange.
I have alerted the Development Team to this thread. They will read what's written and will test the files. So please let me know if my solution below works.
In the meantime, I have a potential solution for you that hopefully works on BIAB 2020...
If you go into "Options | Preferences" and select "Arrange", you'll see an option to set "Natural Arrangement" to "Never".
When I set that, and set Song Settings to "Force Simple Arrangement", the generation was ok. This option in "Arrange" is a Global Option and doing the above globally disables it.
Regards, Noel
Thank you Noel. Glad the problem could be repeated. I thought for a moment I was going insane. I've been trying to figure this out since late October.
The only thing I'm concerned about now is, will they put out a bug fix for the 2020 version. I just paid over $500 for this and I see the upgrade to 2021 is $200. I didn't even get 1 song out of it. LOL!
The only thing I'm concerned about now is, will they put out a bug fix for the 2020 version. I just paid over $500 for this and I see the upgrade to 2021 is $200. I didn't even get 1 song out of it. LOL!
If you purchased 2020 in November, and PG Music released 2021 on November 28th, you may be eligible for a complimentary 2021 upgrade. No guarantees, but you might consider contacting PG Music and seeking their advice. They have a reputation as being an excellent customer-focused company.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
If you purchased 2020 in November, and PG Music released 2021 on November 28th, you may be eligible for a complimentary 2021 upgrade. No guarantees, but you might consider contacting PG Music and seeking their advice. They have a reputation as being an excellent customer-focused company.
Thanks. I just double checked my receipt and I bought it in the beginning of October so I doubt they'll do anything. But I'll give it a try.
I ran in to this with iZotope last year. They put Ozone 8 Advanced on sale at a ridiculously low price. Normally I wouldn't even consider such an expensive program. I even emailed them and asked if Ozone 9 Advanced was coming out soon and if so I'd pass because I didn't want to buy a product at the end of it's update/bug fix cycle. They said no so I bought O8A and 45 days later O9A came out. I was furious. I use it with Studio One Professional. I emailed them and they apologized and upgraded me for free to O9A so it's worth a shot but I doubt it. This is different because there is a physical cost involved in the HDD the Audiophile version comes on. Maybe I can offer to mail it to them so they can install the 2021 version and mail it back to me.
@Lloyd ... I have some time this afternoon. I'll try the copy/paste idea and let you know.
Did you try my suggestions about disabling the global setting for Natural Arrangements under "Options | Preferences | Arrange"? As mentioned, that worked for me.
Did you try my suggestions about disabling the global setting for Natural Arrangements under "Options | Preferences | Arrange"? As mentioned, that worked for me.
Regards, Noel
Hi Noel.
Yep, I tried that and it didn't work.
You can even go in and manually set each track to force it to Natural Arrangement and that didn't work either.
Thanks.
Edit: BTW, I contacted tech support and gave them a link to this thread. Hopefully they can work with me on getting me in to 2021 so they can put out a patch for this. *Fingers Crossed*.
I see what you mean about the 7ths. You might try this and see how it sounds. (using the SWABBIE file) - Copy only the chords from bar 53 at the key change to the end - Open a "new" instance of BIAB - Set the key to B - Paste those chords to the new grid
See if that sounds the way you want for the last part of the song. That might help figure out where BIAB is going wrong. (I think you can use Copy/Paste in BIAB 2020, I forget!)
LLOYD S
Hi Lloyd. Sorry it took so long to reply. Been preoccupied with other things.
I tried that and it didn't work. No matter what combination I try of copying and pasting it always forces me to regenerate and then it overrides where I pasted. At this point I'm done. I'm not going to touch it again until they either put out a fix for the 2020 version, upgrade me for free to the 2021 version and fix that, or I get my money back from Sweetwater. All 3 of which I doubt at this point so I'm probably stuck with the worlds most expensive USB backup drive.
I'm not getting a response from support except 20 questions about where I bought it, providing serial, then providing receipt with all of my personal information on it. Once I did that, then silence. Getting a bit frustrated and having buyers remorse because as you know the Audiophile version is very expensive. I have terrible internet service where I live so I was sort of forced to go with a version that comes on HDD. Sorry, just venting a little. I'll try to remain positive going forward.
All the help here has been greatly appreciated. You guys have a great community here.
Sorry to hear of your woes. I know how frustrating technology can be, especially when you're trying to do something fun like music.
I tried a bunch of different things with your 2 files, like trying a few different styles, changing the key of the song to something like C and then changing it back to the original to see if that helped. I also tried changing the last chord before the key change to see if that made a difference. Nothing seemed to help the SWABBIE file.
You might try to find a similar style you like and see if that helps. Good luck and let us know if you make any progress.
An off the wall idea - Change style to a BLANK Style and repopulate it track by track with those from SWABBIE. Audition each track as you add it - maybe its one RT thats the problem and is affecting others. Does it still do it once you got it all done? Ian
Old Guys Rule.The older I get,the better I was! BB2023 ULTRA, 1013, Win 7 and 10
Try this and let BIAB do the transition for you by using the Song Medley Feature.
Tools| Song Form| Medley Maker
To make this work, you will need to save up to three versions of your project because Medley Maker will not start a Medley in 3/4 time So... for saved version 1
Select any RealStyle that's swing 8, 4/4 at 90 bpm and key signature A Save As - Silver Bells_4-4
From the original version of Silver Bells that you posted on line, Save As - Silver bells_A
The third song you'll likely have to experiment to make it sound to satisfaction because there are different ways to program the Medley Maker.
The options I see are:
Select the Silver Bells_A again and set your beginning bar at 53 and see if the Medley Maker plays the proper B Listen to the song in both keys, A and B and compare the results or Save As Silver Bells_B after transposing the original Chord Chart to B and change Bars 53 forward without the modulation
_____ For the first song, select beginning bar at 1 for two bars and no transition The second song is Silver Bells_A beginning at bar 1 for 51 bars and 1 transition The third song is Silver Bells _B in the key of B beginning at bar 53 for 36 bars and no transition ______
Once you generate the Medley Maker, it will create a new Chord Sheet composed of the Three songs as you've programed them. Bar 54 should be your 1 bar transition. Edit the transition bar to the held F3...
In testing, I also edited the 4/4 first two Bars to having only an A. Chord and only the drums generated to make editing out those two bars easier. I've included a screen shot of my Medley Maker settings.
_____
Sometimes you can achieve the desired results and have BIAB perform with different songs (or different versions and sections of the same song ) something BIAB can't accomplish within a single project. I hope this helps you get the results you're looking for even though you may have to experiment a bit. Good luck.
I appreciate the input and I will try the things Ian and Charlie suggested.
That said, I simply can't believe that a program designed to generate music based on the chords you enter has a hard time not applying 7th's when you ask it to. If I enter A - D - E, I expect A - D - E, not A - D7 - E9. Even when forced to ignore 7th's (that were never entered in the first place) it still adds it.
The issue isn't the SWABBIE style. It's doing it with every style I have tried with the exception of straight midi. But I didn't pay $500 dollars to generate terrible sounding generic midi ...
...If I enter A - D - E, I expect A - D - E, not A - D7 - E9. Even when forced to ignore 7th's (that were never entered in the first place) it still adds it.
The issue isn't the SWABBIE style. It's doing it with every style I have tried with the exception of straight midi. But I didn't pay $500 dollars to generate terrible sounding generic midi ...
I hear your frustration, and I'm not sure if you tried this setting (I'm also not sure how well this works with RealTracks). Page 473 of the manual states: ’Jazz Down’ The chords This will “Jazz Down” the chords by changing chords with 7ths (e.g. C7) to triads (e.g. C) and 9ths and 13ths to 7th chords. Song embellishment is turned off. Press [OK – Jazz Down] to proceed
Last edited by VideoTrack; 01/18/2110:51 AM.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I hear your frustration, and I'm not sure if you tried this setting (I'm also not sure how well this works with RealTracks). Page 473 of the manual states: ’Jazz Down’ The chords This will “Jazz Down” the chords by changing chords with 7ths (e.g. C7) to triads (e.g. C) and 9ths and 13ths to 7th chords. Song embellishment is turned off. Press [OK – Jazz Down] to proceed
I just tried it and it really confused BiaB. It made it worse. fwiw, I posted the files I'm working with in an earlier post in this thread. Anyone can download them and try the suggestions here and verify it's not just on my system.
Just an update. Still no word from support. Looks like I'm SOL.
I see I can deactivate my license. If I do that can I sell it to someone else who does a different style that wouldn't run in to this so I can cut my losses?
I wonder if Notes Norton or anyone who works with Styles can help here? I haven't done it, but don't the styles get written with C7 as the 'mask', and can that mask omit the seventh?
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
The reason that this is happening is a combination of these two things (A) Band-in-a-Box generates the file based on the original key of your song. (B) RealTracks artists play what is natural for them to play for a chord in that style of music, so seeing a B chord in the key of A, many RealTracks will play the b7.
It would definitely be a desirable feature for it to be able to follow key changes within the song for RT generation. Another useful feature would be an F5 bar setting to treat major/minor as I chord and/or the ability to force the chord to a triad. These features currently aren't present.
One solution that you might find acceptable is to change your B chord to "B2" or Badd2, and that would force it to not play the 7.
If you don't like the B2 chord, then a slightly more complicated solution is to: 1. Set your song to Key 1 and generate. Freeze track and mute it during Key 2. 2. Set your song to Key 2, add the RT to a second track, and generate. Mute it during Key 1.
This would work best if there is only one or two RT's that are playing the b7, since you'll need an extra track for each of them.
The reason that this is happening is a combination of these two things (A) Band-in-a-Box generates the file based on the original key of your song. (B) RealTracks artists play what is natural for them to play for a chord in that style of music, so seeing a B chord in the key of A, many RealTracks will play the b7.
It would definitely be a desirable feature for it to be able to follow key changes within the song for RT generation. Another useful feature would be an F5 bar setting to treat major/minor as I chord and/or the ability to force the chord to a triad. These features currently aren't present.
One solution that you might find acceptable is to change your B chord to "B2" or Badd2, and that would force it to not play the 7.
If you don't like the B2 chord, then a slightly more complicated solution is to: 1. Set your song to Key 1 and generate. Freeze track and mute it during Key 2. 2. Set your song to Key 2, add the RT to a second track, and generate. Mute it during Key 1.
This would work best if there is only one or two RT's that are playing the b7, since you'll need an extra track for each of them.
I think for Andrew's slightly more complicated solution to work correctly you will also need to generate Key 2 (the B Chord) without the modulation applied since you're looking for the B and not the C# the modulation in Key 1 produces when transposed up to B.
<< This would work best if there is only one or two RT's that are playing the b7, since you'll need an extra track for each of them. >>
For this issue, I suggest using the unused Melodist Track and use the RealTrack Medley Feature to create a track to be used with Andrew's procedure as the Key 2 unmuted track. This allows all four instruments to play simultaneously and only occupies a single additional track while applying the Unmute at once. You can match the panning of the each instrument and also adjust each instruments level if necessary. In the BIAB Mixer, I reduced the Reverb level to balance between the Bass with no reverb and the two guitars that did have reverb.
I've attached a screen shot showing a mockup. If you open the image in another tab, you can zoom in for clarity.
I appreciate the input and I will try the things Ian and Charlie suggested.
That said, I simply can't believe that a program designed to generate music based on the chords you enter has a hard time not applying 7th's when you ask it to. If I enter A - D - E, I expect A - D - E, not A - D7 - E9. Even when forced to ignore 7th's (that were never entered in the first place) it still adds it.
The issue isn't the SWABBIE style. It's doing it with every style I have tried with the exception of straight midi. But I didn't pay $500 dollars to generate terrible sounding generic midi ...
MIDI can sound fantastic. It is what generates the audio not midi's fault. MIDI is used everyday in productions heard around the world. RealTracks are just that, real music played by real people, what is available is what was played by these real people, if they didn't play straight major chords in the track that is being used, it will never be able to play a straight major chord with no 7ths, 9ths etc.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
Make sure when you are doing some of this troubleshooting and copying and pasting etc. that you freeze the tracks that are right. There was an earlier post that had success generating it in A, then changing it to B and generating it again and getting the right sounding chords. If you do this, freeze them and save them naming them so you can keep track of what you are doing, then put it all together in one song with the frozen key of B parts where you want them. Realband can simplify this process if you export all the tracks to realband and then just do some editing to get it the way you want it. Just takes some time is all. You can save as many copies of the song as you need to get what you want, just by renaming them.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
How finished is your track if you forget the key change and stay in A for the bit you want to go into the key of B? is the structure complete?
I think one workaround that would work is to stay in A for the final chorus in BIAB and then open the file in RB. That way you will have all the chords and part markers.
Then select all tracks for the last bit where you want the key change except drums and pitch transpose 2 semitones up. I'm not sure but if you re-interpret the chords you might well get the chords in the new key. As the tracks won't regenerate you won't get 7ths.
I know you'll lose any frozen tracks as they would regenerate in RB (but not with 7ths!) but you can always export them from BIAB as wav files and pitch transpose the ends.
Regardless of the method you use it won't be ideal.
You can't say 'never' because although that's true now in BIAB, Melodyne can remove the sevenths from audio. It's just tedious work.
Never might have been too strong. But it appears for the tracks that he is using whoever played it used 7ths when they didn't "need" too so there may not be a plain old major chord to be found.
Thanks!
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
The reason that this is happening is a combination of these two things (A) Band-in-a-Box generates the file based on the original key of your song. (B) RealTracks artists play what is natural for them to play for a chord in that style of music, so seeing a B chord in the key of A, many RealTracks will play the b7.
So that must mean that changing the Key at a certain measure is broken too because it is a function of BiaB and I went in and adjusted it where the key changes and it had no effect.
I also tried the B2 chord like you said and unless I change every single one to a 2 they still play the 7th. Also, it happens with all styles that you try, not some, so it doesn't have anything to do with the samples used, it's how BiaB is manipulating them. There is something broken in regard to doing a key change with a rest using Real Tracks.
I still haven't heard back from tech support. Once I provided all the info they asked for it's been total silence. I appreciate the help here, but I paid a lot of money to use the Real Tracks and they don't work right no matter how I try to trick the program and I can't get any reply from support. I feel like I've been taken.
At this point I just want a refund because it's never going to work right. So please feel free to look up all my personal info in your system, tech support has it now, and contact me privately about a refund. And again, don't take my word for it. The songs are here for download, it takes 20 seconds for anyone to verify what I'm saying and to prove all the fixes people are suggesting don't work.
Just a quick post to say I am also not fond of Dominant 7th chords I still use midi styles quite a lot so it's a pain so many demo songs use these kinds of chords, often several different ones in a given song this is simply wrong for songs not in the Blues/Jazz vein I would like a fully active "Jazz Down" the chords edit function It's too much work to edit the 7th and derived chords when one tries to use a pop style
Last edited by Bernard Rasson; 01/31/2103:04 AM.
Bernard Rasson
BIAB Audiophile 2021, BIAB Megapak 2015 (for midi-only projects), Cakewalk, Roland XV-5080, Roland Fantom XR, Aria AC60 Nylon Strings Guitar, Almansa Spanish Guitar, Fender Stratocaster Japan, two laptops Je parle français
I fully agree with you on this issue, Shane "embellisment" is a PITA when not desired
I don't know what kind of music you are into as for myself I am into pop/rock of many, many artists
I have read hundreds of songs in songbooks when I played the guitar
David Bowie is one of the only artists I can think of that "gets it right" everytime when is is using special chords it never sounds "jazzy", it justs sounds like him
best regards, Bernard
Bernard Rasson
BIAB Audiophile 2021, BIAB Megapak 2015 (for midi-only projects), Cakewalk, Roland XV-5080, Roland Fantom XR, Aria AC60 Nylon Strings Guitar, Almansa Spanish Guitar, Fender Stratocaster Japan, two laptops Je parle français
as a cowboy chord guitarist and veteran of years in 60s pop bands and folk bands i've never ever noticed jazz chords turning up unwanted in BIAB folk and pop styles. maybe its because i've set the preferences the way i like - no embellishments and simple arrangements. this thread started out with a genuine problem in BIAB - a key change where the RealTracks players used 7ths the way live musicians would do seeing a B chord in the key of A. for my three chord songs i use the root, sub dominant and dominant chords - and if i don't like the dominant seventh in some places i don't use it. thread drift seems to suggest that BIAB won't do as it's told completely out of context of the original post.
as a cowboy chord guitarist and veteran of years in 60s pop bands and folk bands i've never ever noticed jazz chords turning up unwanted in BIAB folk and pop styles. maybe its because i've set the preferences the way i like - no embellishments and simple arrangements.
Have you tried creating a song with a chord change in Biab? Did you download the examples I posted earlier? Others did and were able to duplicate what I'm seeing. I have my preferences set for no embellishments and simple arrangements too. I've followed every step everyone suggested in this thread. There was either no change or it made the problem worse. I'll be 50 in a few weeks. I've been playing rhythm and lead guitar in country, oldies, and rock bands since I was 13 as well as recording all these years as well. Not sure what any of that matters, but since we have the tape measures out . . .
Quote:
this thread started out with a genuine problem in BIAB - a key change where the RealTracks players used 7ths the way live musicians would do seeing a B chord in the key of A. for my three chord songs i use the root, sub dominant and dominant chords - and if i don't like the dominant seventh in some places i don't use it. thread drift seems to suggest that BIAB won't do as it's told completely out of context of the original post.
No, nothing has drifted, you just don't understand what you are reading or you do and are just being snarky. The problem is still the same ... BiaB is adding different chords than what are entered even if you set preferences to ignore embellishments and tell BiaB you are changing keys so it won't use "7ths the way live musicians would do seeing a B chord in the key of A." as you say. Technically BiaB shouldn't be interpreting a B in the key of A because the key is being set to B. You can do that by going in to the bar settings at the point of the key change.
Only if you're a pretentious douche with no feeling for the piece you are playing or you are told to for creative purposes would you ever go in to the second half of a traditional country song playing jazz 7th's. If the program can't recognize a key change has been set and the fact no embellishment settings are set then it needs to be fixed.
That and the fact that tech support demanded I show proof of purchase before helping in any way and once I did they stopped communicating with me. That's not right no matter how you slice it. Especially for such an expensive product.
I'm not disputing that an improvement could be made, but Andrew is as good as it gets for company tech support, and his post #638969 seemed like a pretty thorough analysis of your song to me. Apparently the overall key is used for this decision but not modulations within the song, and that could be a Wishlist item for future development.
Remember we have all kinds of readers here including young people.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
as a reply to Shane the problem of 7ths instead of a normal major triad occurs when you change the key. that is acknowledged and Andrew explained why and it seems quite right to want it fixed. however, some posts did seem to suggest that it occurs without a key change and that in entering chords whilst the key remains the same, people get 7ths or 'jazz chords' when they want simple majors.
when i create a country or pop BIAB song - i admittedly stay in the same key - i don't get 'jazz chords'. and even in my three chord songs i can easily avoid the 7th on chords such as G in the key of C and D in the key of G.
so i was sharing my experience that 'jazz chords' are not a problem for me using the settings i do in BIAB. if people do get problems after changing the key, Andrew has made some suggestions - i hope i made some sensible ones too such as generating the whole song in A then opening in RealBand and transposing the ending up 2 semitones.
the drift i referred to was the suggestion that 'jazz chords' occur and you can't avoid them. apologies if anyone thought i doubted the validity of the original post referring to the key change.
<< I've followed every step everyone suggested in this thread. There was either no change or it made the problem worse.>> << I appreciate the input and I will try the things Ian and Charlie suggested. >>
<< The swabbie one plays fine until you start to get in to the key change. It's painful after that. >> << The reason that this is happening is a combination of these two things (A) Band-in-a-Box generates the file based on the original key of your song. (B) RealTracks artists play what is natural for them to play for a chord in that style of music, so seeing a B chord in the key of A, many RealTracks will play the b7. >>
I reviewed where some of the suggestions have been attempted but didn't see any remarks to why the Song Medley Feature failed. Other than the fact that Medley Maker will not start a Medley in 3/4 time, using the Song Medley Feature: Tools| Song Form| --- Song Medley Maker will do exactly what you're asking BIAB to do. It can't 'not change' nor can it 'make it worse'.
The Song Medley Feature interprets and plays each of your song sections for what they are if you follow every step I detailed on 1/11/21; Individual BIAB song SGU files. The Song Medley Feature combines individual songs and creates transitions between them by creating a temporary SGU chart that can be saved and rendered to audio. The Song Medley Feature will play each song exactly as each individual 'song' is written - in the proper key signature, tempo, feel, genre, and chord progression. BIAB 'sees' and interpret the transition section of your song and you can manually change that transition to your specifications or you can manually create the transition and BIAB will ignore making an automatic transition by setting the transition period to (0).
It's established in other comments in this thread that your song will play the correct chords in any key up to the point the song modulates. So if you generate and save as a song, the Chord Chart in the key of -A- with no modulation programmed, all of the chords play correctly without the 7th. Then, if you generate and save as a song, the Chord Chart in the key of -B- with no modulation programmed, all of the chords play correctly without the 7th, it is a simple matter to program the transition from your choice of the multiple options to choose from, and have the BIAB Song Medley Feature play the two songs as the performance you're attempting to achieve. It's a simple matter to complete the Song Medley program instructions so that:
Song Medley will play the bars up to the transition of song 1 in -A- to the transition bar in the song. Song Medley will Transition as programmed. Song Medley will play the bars following the transition of song 2 in -B- to the end of the song.
It's also a simple process to start the song in 4/4 and transition to 3/4 for the actual song and have the transition be a small gap of silence to be edited and cut out after rendering the song to audio.
Ya, I am afraid this thread has lost me. It appears to conclude that BAIB can not play triads. Or that BIAB only plays a dominate chords over the fifth. That can't be true. I get that about modulation. Heck I have troubles with that also, so any suggestions for improvements are welcome. And I also understand that some selected RTs are more avartgarde and will stray from the chord sheet. But there are plenty of simple RTs which stick to triads when told to.
"Ya, I am afraid this thread has lost me. It appears to conclude that BAIB can not play triads. Or that BIAB only plays a dominate chords over the fifth. That can't be true. I get that about modulation. Heck I have troubles with that also, so any suggestions for improvements are welcome. And I also understand that some selected RTs are more avantgarde and will stray from the chord sheet. But there are plenty of simple RTs which stick to triads when told to."
The original problem as I understand, is the songs starts in key of A, transitions to key of B after the transition real tracks are playing 7ths vice the intended plain old major chord. The OP suggests that a key change should not make the real tracks change how they are playing the chords, which is reasonable expectation. Many others have given him some suggested ways to get the result he is looking for. Then it got into a little tiff.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
maybe its me that caused the 'little tiff'. the thread drift i referred to earlier is the mistaken view that BIAB can't play simple major chords as entered - just dominant sevenths and 'jazz chords' - exactly the reason MusicStudent refers to as to why he's lost track of the thread. glad to get confirmation that its not just me that read that into the posts above.
the original problem is understood and explained by Andrew - and a fix would be welcomed. all i set out to do is say that the way i use BIAB, the program plays the chords i want - not 'jazz chords' - which is what i think Bernard Rasson wants too - so it is possible.
we haven't heard from shane if any of the workarounds suggested by several people - including Andrew - have solved the problem.
Yes the thread has veered off course a little. It's normal for threads of any length like this. I'm a bit to blame because I interjected my frustration with tech support. I contacted them about this and after 5 emails back and forth about where I bought it, when, and finally demanding I provide proof of purchase, they vanished. Never addressed the problem, nothing. So yeah, I'm a bit frustrated and feel a little screwed over to be honest. But it's time to move on because there's nothing I can do about it now.
To steer the thread back on course, here is an explanation of the problem I'm seeing and here is a link to the song files I posted before so you can open it and hear what's happening for yourself. You have to be logged in to the forum to see the files and download them.
Here's what is happening:
I was doing a 3/4 song (Silver Bells) starting in the key of A with a key change to B. Biab played all the chords as expected without adding in any 7th's until the song got to the key change. After the key change to B almost all of the chords are embellished with 7th's turning this well known Christmas song in to some kind of warped out of tune sounding blues tune. If you choose a midi only style it does not do this. It only does it when using all Realtracks.
I've performed all the Simple Arrangement and Force Simple Arrangement settings. I set a key change at the bar where it changes so Biab knows the key has changed. I've performed all the steps suggested throughout this thread. Nothing works. No matter what I do with any Realtrack style it always ignores settings and adds in complex chords that I didn't enter.
So thanks again for all the replies. At this point it seems the easiest course of action is to just do it twice in different keys and export the tracks in to my DAW and cut/paste/splice the song together. I have to say I messed with this a little and man, the Audiophile version sounds really really good! I was shocked because when just listening through Biab it doesn't sound near as good as when I export the tracks in to my DAW. I would have been thrilled with my purchase if not for this hiccup I ran in to with my very first song. LOL!
yes and no. BIAB can play songs with basic major triads and 'non jazz chords'. but if you reread Andrew's explanation of why you get B7 in the song you originally posted about, you'll see exactly why you get the seventh after the key change.
Andrew's explanation makes sense and he has agreed a fix is needed so no one will get the key change to work using RealTracks as Andrew described. however, if you use an all midi style as opposed to RealTracks you might get standard major triads but you'll need to experiment.
above you'll find numerous workarounds including the one you've adopted.
<< Andrew's explanation makes sense and he has agreed a fix is needed so no one will get the key change to work using RealTracks as Andrew described.>>
However, using the Medley Maker tool will play the B chord without the 7th because it follows Andrew's explanation the SGU file follows the key signature thus the Medley Maker will give you the modulation you desire due to it interprets the modulated section of the current song as another song, not as a section of the current SGU in A.
So, your statement: <<At this point it seems the easiest course of action is to just do it twice in different keys and export the tracks in to my DAW and cut/paste/splice the song together.>> is correct except there's no need for a DAW. BIAB is designed to easily and efficiently do this very task with the Medley Maker. Medley Maker creates a unique and separate MGU stitching the two songs together, creating a transition you can edit to be the F#... chord you want and this MGU file will play the modulated section in B without the 7th's.
Medley Maker allows the user to select what bars to play from each song. Since you are playing a Medley of the same song but in two different keys, you select the appropriate bars of each song to begin and end so they only play the bars in the specific key of that section.
Medley Maker does require that a medley must start in 4/4 time but here again, select any 4/4 Style at the correct tempo, save it as a song and start your medley with a few bars of this song and edit it out after you render the Medley Maker MGU file to audio.
1.) 4/4 song - 2 bars Transition 0 2.) 3/4 song in A - bars 1-51 Transition 1 3.) 3/4 song in B - bars 53-88 Transition 0
The Medley Maker will insert the bar 52 transition and input two chords. Edit the transition bar to F#...
yes and no. BIAB can play songs with basic major triads and 'non jazz chords'. but if you reread Andrew's explanation of why you get B7 in the song you originally posted about, you'll see exactly why you get the seventh after the key change.
Andrew's explanation makes sense and he has agreed a fix is needed so no one will get the key change to work using RealTracks as Andrew described. however, if you use an all midi style as opposed to RealTracks you might get standard major triads but you'll need to experiment.
above you'll find numerous workarounds including the one you've adopted.
Hi Bob thanks for replying. I apologize, I missed Andrew's reply. I'll go back and read it.
Thanks again everyone for your input. It is appreciated.
The reason that this is happening is a combination of these two things (A) Band-in-a-Box generates the file based on the original key of your song. (B) RealTracks artists play what is natural for them to play for a chord in that style of music, so seeing a B chord in the key of A, many RealTracks will play the b7.
It would definitely be a desirable feature for it to be able to follow key changes within the song for RT generation. Another useful feature would be an F5 bar setting to treat major/minor as I chord and/or the ability to force the chord to a triad. These features currently aren't present.
One solution that you might find acceptable is to change your B chord to "B2" or Badd2, and that would force it to not play the 7.
If you don't like the B2 chord, then a slightly more complicated solution is to: 1. Set your song to Key 1 and generate. Freeze track and mute it during Key 2. 2. Set your song to Key 2, add the RT to a second track, and generate. Mute it during Key 1.
This would work best if there is only one or two RT's that are playing the b7, since you'll need an extra track for each of them.
Hi Andrew,
Somehow I missed your reply and only just saw it after Bob brought it to my attention. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Using BiaB as a VST in my DAW works really well too. I'm better at editing tracks in it. Less of a learning curve if you know what I mean. The sound quality of the RealTracks that I've tried so far are excellent when working with them in my DAW.
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Hopefully I'm overlooking something? Any input would be appreciated.
) something BIAB can't accomplish within a single project. I hope this helps you get the results you're looking for even though you may have to experiment a bit. Good luck.
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