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#640523 - 02/06/21 01:42 AM [RealBand] Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB?
Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 92
Leovigild Offline
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IOW, what does RealBand do that BIAB doesn't do already? I am not being flippant, I am intrigued by RealBand but, not having used it yet, I want to know exactly how I would make use of it in a way that is above and beyond BIAB.

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#640540 - 02/06/21 03:55 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 09/21/01
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Bob Calver Offline
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the GUI is the clue as far as i'm concerned. with RB you can see everything up front. you can see all the separate tracks - as many as 48 which is many more than BIAB.

rather than keep regenerating tracks at random in BIAB hoping you get it right and then freezing it, you can generate alternate RealTrack 'takes' in RB and then with them all in view cut and past the bits you like to produce exactly what you want. and if you want to replace a short section multiriffs allows you to generate seven different versions and choose the one you like.

different windows are so useful - chords, mixer, tracks, all more easily interpreted and easier to tweak and work with than BIAB.

BIAB is amazing but to get it to do things other than its basic auto accompaniment function you need to dig down into its internal workings.

just read some of the advice as to how to do things that run to almost a page on the BIAB forum - look at how people are still having trouble with the mixer and utility tracks. i often post that what they want to do is so simple in RB.

as i said the GUI is the clue - everything you want to do is there in front of you. and of course you get the full functionality of BIAB for generating midi, RealTracks and mid supertracks.

rough out a song in BIAB then do the heavy lifting in RB. the two programs work amazingly well together.

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#640542 - 02/06/21 04:37 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Bob Calver]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Bob.
for me i find when in the beginning arrangeing phase of a song that i can work faster in bb, because the constant waveform redraws arent taking place like rb.
which is why in the rb wishlist i asked for a turning off redraws option.
i wish people would support this.
twould make life much easier for rb users.
THEN do redraws when arrangeing in rb was done.

i would use rb lots more if i could turn off the darn waveform redraws.
instead , what i often do is generate a bunch of rt's audio traks in biab and then plop them into reaper where i can move audio "bits" around very very fast.

rb is a great tool , but needs a turn off draws option because one can always use the old i guess from early days "bars view" to move audio around.
(rb bars view is a a secret weapon imho.)
i just find certain things cumbersome.
rb could be superb with a few subtle enhancements.
best.
muso.






Edited by justanoldmuso (02/06/21 04:40 AM)
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#640543 - 02/06/21 05:00 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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rharv Offline
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For me these three items make it much better to work in

RB - songs are linear and it has a more DAW like workflow
You get more tracks that are more flexible
and the killer is Time Signatures .. RB will work with whatever legitimate time signature you want.

Plus
Multiriffs is a cool feature and the ACW in RB is in my opinion better (due to better time signature and tempo accuracy support).
I have no idea what the wave redraw issue is mentioned above, sounds like a graphics driver problem.
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#640544 - 02/06/21 05:11 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 09/21/01
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Bob Calver Offline
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wave redraws don't bother me either - maybe muso can tell us what he means - and when you open a BIAB song the automatic change to linear structure is great for tinkering with bits of the song.

as long as i have the structure in BIAB i go straight to RB. the only reason i went back to BIAB recently was a tempo change for the end of the song which was a doddle in BIAB but i'm sure i could easily have done it in RB.

sometimes i go back to BIAB to audition different styles if I want to add a midi track and need quickly to find a style with the kind of midi track i like.

together the two programs work really well together. i feel sorry for mac users who don't get RB - its like Raquel Welch with only one breast........

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#640556 - 02/06/21 06:03 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Bob Calver]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Bob n Rharv.
nope. my pc is highly optimised i5 ssd system.
its always been an issue on various systems going back years with rb. irrespective of set up. ive run tests also on powerhouse pc's.
heres the test i just did.
1. imported a biab song. generation + waveform draws took like 30 secs.
2. then i regenned a trak from a gtr rt to a organ rt.
same deal waiting for redraw of new organ trak.
i'm on latest rb 2020 version.

my issue is, in both examples above biab would be off and running /playing way way before rb.

maybe things are diff in rb 21 ?
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#640559 - 02/06/21 06:14 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 09/21/01
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Bob Calver Offline
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i think the difference is that BIAB starts playing before everything is generated. RB doesn't which i presume is just the way RB works. as it displays the complete wave form it needs to do everything before it starts. it's not the drawing, it's the generation.

when i cut and paste already generated audio it's instant but new material i agree takes a little longer but i've never thought it was a problem - just the way things are in RB as opposed to BIAB

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#640564 - 02/06/21 07:08 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Correct, RB generates everything before playing. I believe it also uses a temp audio directory so it is able to undo/redo (once saved as a SEQ file).
Does BiaB allow that? I recall regretting regenrating in BiaB as the old track was gone once I did.

It's not the redraw, it's doing all the work before starting play.It does so so it can do other things, like Multiriff generation, generate a given section on any track(s), etc.
Also BiaB doesn't display all the waveforms while it plays/generates, as far as I know.

Biab is made to be simpler/faster, but there is always a tradeoff.
Also "my pc is highly optimised i5 ssd system" says nothing about graphics drivers .. but that no longer appears to be the issue, it's the different workflow you don't like.


Edited by rharv (02/06/21 07:12 AM)
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#640579 - 02/06/21 08:41 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: rharv]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Rharv/Bob
dont get me wrong my fellow users.
RB has a LOT to commend it.

just little "niggles" that have bugged me over the years.
so what i do is, instead, in biab , heres my workflow.
1. i ruff out a basic song arrangement. save it.
2. THEN believe it or not !! i actually audition EVERY SINGLE INSTRUMENT RT and midi (takes a long time !) to see what little accidental "sound pictures" get genned.
i might save 50 bb files all with different instrumentation, but same basic original arrangement/chords ive entered.

i NEVER keep to the plain vanilla ways/methods.
cos my way i get pleasant accidents.
for example i'm doing a song right now (bit different for me) and used steppin out as the beginning BASE STYLE, BUT all the chords and instrumentation is diff.
ive saved about 30 audio traks so far from RT's. with a base stereo bed trak.

i import lots into rb and/or reaps for added experimentation.
add my vocs voila .
but i use reaps lots of times cos of automation // editing tricks and also the waveform redraws are BAM! INSTANT. its difficult to describe.

as i said i'm not knocking RB , ive used it a zillion times over the years. just "niggles".
ps another little trick i use is EVERY SINGLE RT HAS ITS OWN PAGE WITH COMMENTS in 3 ring binder.
so i can look up my favorite RT's comments.
ie id no of RT followed by comments. 2 columns.
when i updated to 2020 last year i went thru EVERY SINGLE RT and STYLE and MID IN DETAIL,
and documented in my master binder. thousands of entries.
ive developed tons of strategies over the years .

i'm sure ive used rb and biab in ways never intended lol.
and different from the normal user.
i do a lot of wacky songs and ideas.
been doing this awhile. lol
best
muso.
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#640594 - 02/06/21 10:36 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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First of all, I'd have that info in digital form if I was going to document RTs to this extent.
Secondly, I find trying new RTs on a given track much better in RB, where I can keep the original (just mute it) and generate it again on another blank track .. and another .. then 'comp' the bits I like from each to another final track.

As for having 50 BiaB files for a given song; in RB every time you save a SEQ file, it creates a backup file, so you always have the previous version, and the one before that.
How many you have is controlled by you, as is how much disk space you want to allocate for them, and even whether to delete them or put in recycle bin when the quota is reached.

There are lots of such 'hidden' reasons I like RB/PT.
I've had friends ask me to come help them figure out how they messed up a tune.
The ones that used RB/PT are easy. I just ask "when was it last OK?"
reply - "Tuesday night"
my response - "OK let's just go back to Tuesday night".
I restore the backup and 99% of the time everything is great.

The fact that RB does backups, and uses a 'Temp Audio Directory' to facilitate Undo/Redo are two huge reasons I prefer it over BiaB.
The available extra tracks, ability to generate just sections of a track(s), using Multiriffs to hear a bunch of variations at once, and the Time Sig/Tempo advantages make it a no-brainer for me.

I agree this far; rough out an idea in BiaB (faster), but when you want to get surgical, add additional audio/MIDI tracks, and still be able to Generate RTs, I prefer RB at that point.
Niggles? Sure .. mainly because it does things other programs can't do, so you have to get used to the workflow.
As a comparison, Photoshop can do awesome things, but it is NOT intuitive right off the bat. You have to learn to use it.
Once you do, you can compare others to it fairly, but until then, you simply don't know.
RB is that kind of tool; it does things no other DAW can do, so it may seem to have 'niggles' at first .. though I'm not 100% sure I can actually define niggles ..
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#640672 - 02/06/21 04:34 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: rharv]
Registered: 01/07/20
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Rharv.
RE comping etc etc.
yessiree , done it many times in RB.
ive even got round here somewhere an ancient Powertraks from years ago. where i used to do all sorts of comping stuff.
at that time, if i remember midi features in powertraks were better than pro tools. i can remember people commenting on that.
just one reason i ran powertraks in the beginning.
but its good of you to restate some of the neat features in case new users read the posts.
your the RB king imho.
best
muso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (02/06/21 04:37 PM)
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#640834 - 02/07/21 03:41 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 127
Loc: London, UK
Mus Offline
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Just started using RB and I have a question about the Chords page.

Do you have as much control over RealDrum subsets & variations as you do in BB?

Thanks
M

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#640875 - 02/08/21 02:03 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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Bob Calver Offline
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not sure about doing it from the chords page but in tracks view you can generate any realdrums you like and cut and paste everything from a single bar to a complete track

and if you 'rough out' a song in BIAB as most of us do, i would think that if you open the BIAB file in RB you should get the drums you chose in BIAB - including part markers for multistyles.

i know RB regenerates BIAB tracks but you can of course drop and drag a BIAB tracks into RB as a wav file.

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#640883 - 02/08/21 04:57 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Mus]
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rharv Offline
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In some ways more, while in the RealDrums track selection look at the variations and select whichever you want for a given section.


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#640885 - 02/08/21 05:08 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: rharv]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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you could have 48 traks of drums if you wanted.
but i think you get the idea.
do various bed traks, add more solo traks, do a trak of just shots and so on. only limited by ones imagination.
LET THERE BE DRUMS BIG HIT FOR SANDY NELSON.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC9okWm8A6o


Edited by justanoldmuso (02/08/21 05:33 AM)
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#641031 - 02/08/21 04:21 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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rharv Offline
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or, here's another trick muso made me think of -
If you really want to get precise, many of the RDs have each drum recorded by itself at the end of the file.
In Realband, these can be Cut/Pasted anywhere on any track, or used as 'samples' in a VSTi sample player.

On these tracks the sky is the limit. Create whatever drum pattern you want. <grin>
I've only toyed with this for testing, as there is usually a RD track/variation that gets close enough, or gets used early enough to serve the purpose.

It's a different workflow (not done from the Chords window for example)
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#641183 - 02/09/21 12:54 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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Simon - PG Music Offline
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Muso: I believe your issue is less of "drawing" the waveforms than "generating" the audio into RB. That procedure is much faster now that RealBand is 64-bit for 2021 and now supports SSE2, SSSE3, AVX, and AVX2 processor extensions which together speed up any DSP and generation by 4x - perhaps give it a try again if you have 2021, see if it works better for you.
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#641185 - 02/09/21 01:11 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Simon - PG Music]
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Simon.
re RB/2021 speed ups.
thanks for the info. cos there are many rb features i really like.
as you know i'm a long time pg user/proponent.
and also highly respect the many pg staff, includeing yourself.

frankly i'm in the middle of a very difficult song i'm doing right now.

i'll be happy to upgrade when i see even a few of my biab and rb wishes addressed, as well as such items as the standalone biab plug in traks include pans and vols on all traks includeing utility traks. i really like that standalone.


best.
muso.
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#641304 - 02/10/21 02:59 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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Leovigild Offline
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I sure opened up a discussion here, thanks for all the info on RB!

I am convinced, it's been made clear how RB will work for me.

Just got the BIAB/RB 2021 DVD upgrade from 2016.

Quick question, do I just install the upgrade right over 2016 or do I uninstall 2016 first?

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#641337 - 02/10/21 05:53 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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Bob Calver Offline
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just install over the top is the usual advice

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#641439 - 02/10/21 06:39 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Leovigild]
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jford Offline
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If you install over 2016, you need to make sure after installation that you run the "cleanup" utility, because the folder structure in BIAB changed. Otherwise, you won't see your original 2016 content (unless of course, it's already in 2021).
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#641551 - 02/11/21 11:26 AM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: Mus]
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Originally Posted By: Mus
Just started using RB and I have a question about the Chords page. Do you have as much control over RealDrum subsets & variations as you do in BB? Thanks M


Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) and RealBand (RB) approach track regeneration differently so the way each program interacts with the chord sheet differs.

By default BiaB regenerates all tracks, completely regenerates the tracks from beginning to end and sometimes performs regeneration automatically. The user must "freeze" a track to prevent the track from unexpectedly regenerating.

Regeneration is totally predictable and selective in RealBand. The user selects what track areas will be regenerated then initiates regeneration. The only exception is when a Band-in-a-Box MGU or SGU file is imported into RealBand.

Import a BiaB (SGU or MGU) song file into RealBand and the song file chord sheet is used as a guide for RB to generate the initial midi and RealTracks. This initial generation ignores frozen tracks.

So, by default, Band-in-a-Box regenerates all tracks and complete tracks. After the initial generation RealBand generates partial tracks on demand.

In practice this means a change in a Band-in-a-Box chord sheet will affect all tracks (unless frozen) and may initiate an unexpected track regeneration.

A change in a RealBand chord sheet has no affect until one or more track sections are highlighted and regeneration is manually initiated.

In my opinion this highlights one of the great strengths of RealBand. A user can use the chord sheet and selective regeneration to obtain precise control over changes made to each track.

There are two great truths regarding Band-in-a-Box and RealBand. Truth one is to think of the two programs as companions; the sum of the two is greater than either alone with each program's strength covering the other program's weakness. Truth two is Band-in-a-Box's focus is on the complete song while RealBand's focus is on precise track control.
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#642320 - 02/15/21 04:19 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Funkifized Offline
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So, how do you categorically audition each RT to list it in your binder?
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#643972 - 02/25/21 06:48 PM [RealBand] Re: Apart from the GUI, how is RealBand different from BIAB? [Re: justanoldmuso]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

1. imported a biab song. generation + waveform draws took like 30 secs.
2. then i regenned a trak from a gtr rt to a organ rt.
same deal waiting for redraw of new organ trak.


So I have to ask this question, sounding like a smartass when I don't mean to be.

30 seconds? Is that holding you back? Cutting into your output? Are you under contract with a label for 12 albums per year that 30 seconds is a problem?

You said "optimized i5 SSD computer."

Neither the i5 CPU or the SSD has anything to do with video. What kind of graphics card do you have? Are you using the computer's onboard video, which uses shared system RAM? I have a 4gb Nvidia card and, while I am still not sure what you are talking about when you say "waveform draws", I am not subject to those "oh so long" 30 second wait times. (Okay, no more sarcasm. Promise.) If you mean what I think you mean, that is the software doing the math required to create that part you just generated. (I think I know what you mean but the waveform is the digital shape of the sound sample it is using.)

Could you shoot a quick video of the offending property and show it to us in real time? Then link us to the same SEQ file and we can try to recreate what you see on our systems. It may be that we see exactly what you see but don't get hung up about it because as long term RB users (I have still never booted up BIAB. I want a more DAW-like platform to work in.) we are used to it.

I just don't see the value of worrying about 30 seconds. I don't know your life, and how "old" an "oldmuso" is, but I am almost 70, retired, and haven't cared a thing about speed or time since I retired in 2013. For what I get from RB, I'll wait 30 seconds. Go get a drink, use the can, make a sandwich, throw the dog's tennis ball a few times... 30 seconds. You get 86,400 of those every day.

What's telling here, and indicative that this is not a software issue or shortcoming, is that I have never seen anybody even mention this before, and I've been a forum user for 10 years now.

Again, I am just curious about why this is an issue to you. You can slap and glue any simple set of 1-5-6-4 tracks together, write lyrics from a rhyming dictionary online, and call it a song, and we see it every day, but this software is capable of a lot more than that. Because I don't know you, what level of songwriter you are, what level of performer...it's hard to know what your desired result is. I know on my last world tour... (Sorry, I said no more sarcasm.)

I write for me. I don't care much what people think. These are my stories from my life and I tell them how I want to. Like, don't like, whatever. I know what I want something to sound like, and I will generate dozens of solos so I can paste together what I want. Like most people who write, I have a sound in my head and I can't tell you in words what that sound is. I just wish the voices in my head would stop talking to me in Spanish, porque no entiendo español. But Real Band speaks my language.


Edited by eddie1261 (02/25/21 06:49 PM)
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Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Today!

Using Band-in-a-Box® 2021? Make sure you update for free today!

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The latest Mac update resolves some user-reported issues with MIDI features and hot keys. Click here to learn about all the enhancements with this FREE update and download it today.

Both of these free updates for your 2021 version include the latest DAW Plugin 3.7.23 too!

Happy B.C. Day!

Monday, August 2 is B.C. Day here in Victoria, but a few of us will still be here!

Our adjusted hours for that day are: 8:00AM - 4:00PM PDT.

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Learn more about RealCharts for RealDrums with drum notation.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Feature: Utility Tracks

Have you ever wanted to use more than 5 tracks when creating your Band-in-a-Box® song? Great news.... with the new Utility Tracks added in Band-in-a-Box® 2021, there are 16 more tracks!

These can be used for audio and/or MIDI! Generate RealTracks to the Utility Tracks where you can listen to AND edit them and view the RealCharts as MIDI. You can also record to these tracks (MIDI or audio), and import your audio for further editing or to harmonize it.

We explain all the great ways to use the Utility Tracks in this video.

Read more about this feature: Windows | Mac.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac Review – Users' Dreams Come True

Read all about what "Dr. Dave" Walker thinks of his latest copy of Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac with his review, Band-in-a-Box for Mac 2021 – Users' Dreams Come True.

"2021 is a big leap forward to the best Band-in-a-Box for Mac yet! If you have been putting off upgrading, or even if not, NOW is the time to upgrade! And if you haven't got it yet, you owe it to yourself to get Band-in-a-Box 2021.

Maybe the most important point from all the talk about this version is that PG Music is listening to you, their customers. So if you have a feature that you really want in the program, write to them or chat from their web site. Let them know and yours just might be the next feature added."
-"Dr. Dave" Walker

Thanks again Dr. Dave for your enthusiastic feedback, we're thrilled that you love what we've done with Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac!

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 German for Mac is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 für Mac ist hier!

Wir waren fleißig und haben 80 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 202 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI-SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, Artist Performances, Bonus RealDrums "Singles", RealDrums Transkriptionen, MultiStyles PAK 1, Xtra Styles PAK 10 umd 11, und vieles mehr!

Was ist neu? | Paket

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