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A recent thread on playing live with BIAB was very helpful to me. Many thanks to Matt Finley, Notes Norton, Jim Fogle, and others for sharing their expertise and insights. Before COVID hit, I had played about 20 gigs running my Yoga 920 laptop direct to PA using the headphone output. The sound was excellent, but I had one snap, crackle, or pop too many, so I want to switch to USB. My main objective is to reduce any unexpected/unpleasant noise rather than to maximize sound quality. These will be low-key, low-volume gigs, so I plan to use my new Eon One Compact as a super portable, all-in-one PA. It runs on batteries and has four inputs, including two XLR combo jacks, one mono 1/4” jack, and one 1/8” aux in. Because the entire rig runs on batteries, I'm not concerned about ground loops. Even if I plug in the Eon One, it has two USB ports to power the laptop and/or another device if need be. So now I am trying to decide between using the Audioquest Dragonfly or a USB direct box along the lines of this Mackie. Price is not a consideration. My main concern is keeping the rig ultra-portable and simple, which favors the Dragonfly. On the other hand, if there is a compelling reason to go for something like the Mackie, I will. Both are passive devices. Would love to have some advice from those more experienced in this area. It's a small purchase, but I've really got to stop my habit of buying music-related gizmos that end up gathering dust…!
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I have quite a dustbin myself after over six decades of playing professionally. And that’s not counting the instruments.
About the 1/8” headphone jack, I don’t remember which thread yours was, but I’m willing to bet I said DON’T USE ONE! So, good for you. All you need is one electronic thunderstorm to be convinced.
Now I’ll look up the equipment you just mentioned.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Well, I just scanned that Dragonfly info. I can’t find anything that says what the output is, only that it is for headphones. I sure hope it isn’t a (you guessed it) 1/8” jack.
And, this is a DAC unit meant for audiophiles. It seems very much unsuited for a live sound application. You are feeding high sample and bit rate music into an amplifier loaded with hiss and noise. Not that there’s anything wrong with such an amp.
A bus powered Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 would do.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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The Mackie looks like a much better fit to me, with XLR out.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Thanks, Matt. Somehow I guessed I was not the only one with loads of "spare parts" laying about :-)
The Dragonfly output is 1/8 inch.
I thought the noise issues with 1/8 inch outputs would be solved if the signal from the laptop was converted to USB via the Dragonfly, then routed to the 1/8 inch auxiliary in jack on the powered speaker. Is this incorrect?
Do you think there would be a significant sound quality or noise reduction difference having the BIAB signal going into an XLR port (with the Mackie) as opposed to going into the 1/8 inch aux in port (with the Dragonfly)? I could easily switch the guitar to the 1/4” jack and put the BIAB signal into one of the XLR ports.
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My problem with the 1/8” jack is the fact that is is poorly designed. What works ok in 1/4” size doesn’t work when smaller. I ran an electronics store in the 70s and saw many failures. The metal contacts fatigue and the contact becomes intermittent. Then the slightest movement of the cable causes horrible static to be amplified.
Don’t buy anything for pro audio use that uses 1/8” jacks anywhere in the signal path.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Great conversations and recommendations! I'm following closely as I try to convert from a "studio" setup to a "live" setup without adding to my equipment collection!
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Gotcha, Matt. That is the first time I have heard a clear and coherent explanation of this issue. It makes sense when I think about the many hundreds of times I have inserted and re-inserted the headphone plug into the 1/8 inch headphone jack on this laptop while arranging tunes.
Many thanks!
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Between the two options presented, I'd probably go for the Mackie, since it's built for stage use. The Dragonfly looks like it would break after one gig. I'd also avoid the Focusrite 2i2 suggestion as it can probably break much easier than the Mackie, although sonically it would be fantastic.
I'd suggest a USB mixer if possible and just use the Eon as a speaker, since I assume you'd need a mixer of some sort and a separate mixer would put the controls more easily available. Mackie, Yamaha, and Soundcraft all make nice small-format mixers with USB.
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Agreed. But Simon, have you used a small Focusrite? The case is metal (painted aluminum, I think) and they are quite solid. I've used a 2i4 on remote gigs for many years.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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The DACs on all the "Fast USB 2", uSB 3, Thunderbolt 3 compact interfaces introduced since October 2019 are from the same family — and they're extremely good. The only differences are the number of Ins/Outs/Mic Pres/Headphone Amps the various part numbers support. I've written an article on this but, till published, I can't post the details other than I've torn a number of them down and seen the ink on the chip set. I can say that the 8 mic Pre/MIDI/2x headphone/8 out version costs $6.30 each if you buy 1,000 or more. Despite the claims of the marketing departments and online reviewers who parrot those blurbs (and never look under the hood), no one is making their own — and I do mean no one. So, buy the current generation of whatever has the features you are looking for. Some are built like a tank with pan pots/switches and have onboard effects but no MIDI (Mackie). Others have proprietary "vintage" circuits (SSL). Most have I/O Mix/Blend controls (except the Scarlett—none have it). Some have hi-gain circuits in front of the mic pres (M-Audio Air can handle a SM7B and many ribbon mics w/out a Cloudlifter). Some come with many GB VIs and effects (NI, MOTU). The list goes on. The M-Audio Air series is externally powered, has a number of different I/O configurations, most have MIDI… the 192|14 is 8 x 8 with 4 mic pres, 2 DIs, 2 Line Ins and 2 headphone amps for $329 or less. Fewer features cost less. Interestingly, M-Audio's marketing department claims that the 192|14 is only 8 x 4 — you'd think that they'd want to sell some. You can read my full review here under MikeH: 192|14 I'm not pushing M-Audio. In fact, I do not care what you buy. As long as it's the current generation, it's all (really) good. If you like the way the Scarlett Gen 3 or the Mackie PROFxv3 or MOTU M2/4 etc. get it. Do not pay attention to RT Latency numbers — it's all the same and dependent on sample rates and buffer size. The difference between them is less than moving your ears 2 feet closer or further to your monitor speakers with the PreSonus Thunderbolt 3 interfaces being the fastest—barely. It's all inexpensive. I would not buy the older gear. No matter how it gets marked down on closeout, the new stuff is the better bargain.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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Agreed. But Simon, have you used a small Focusrite? The case is metal (painted aluminum, I think) and they are quite solid. I've used a 2i4 on remote gigs for many years. Yes, I have a 2i2 3rd gen right next to me, and I had a 2i2 1st gen before I upgraded to my current RME. I consider the Focusrite "studio or home" reliable but not "toss it around at a gig and pour beer on it" reliable. The main reason is because the pots and jacks are only board mounted, not fixed to the case at all. So if you trip on a cable and yank the Focusrite to the floor it can break the jack off the PCB much easier than the Mackie who's jacks are screwed to the metal case. This may or may not be an issue to the OP, if he takes care of his stuff and doesn't let others handle it for him. The DACs on all the "Fast USB 2", uSB 3, Thunderbolt 3 compact interfaces introduced since October 2019 are from the same family — and they're extremely good. The only differences are the number of Ins/Outs/Mic Pres/Headphone Amps the various part numbers support. I've written an article on this but, till published, I can't post the details other than I've torn a number of them down and seen the ink on the chip set. I can say that the 8 mic Pre/MIDI/2x headphone/8 out version costs $6.30 each if you buy 1,000 or more. Despite the claims of the marketing departments and online reviewers who parrot those blurbs (and never look under the hood), no one is making their own — and I do mean no one. So, buy the current generation of whatever has the features you are looking for. Some are built like a tank with pan pots/switches and have onboard effects but no MIDI (Mackie). Others have proprietary "vintage" circuits (SSL). Most have I/O Mix/Blend controls (except the Scarlett—none have it). Some have hi-gain circuits in front of the mic pres (M-Audio Air can handle a SM7B and many ribbon mics w/out a Cloudlifter). Some come with many GB VIs and effects (NI, MOTU). The list goes on. The M-Audio Air series is externally powered, has a number of different I/O configurations, most have MIDI… the 192|14 is 8 x 8 with 4 mic pres, 2 DIs, 2 Line Ins and 2 headphone amps for $329 or less. Fewer features cost less. Interestingly, M-Audio's marketing department claims that the 192|14 is only 8 x 4 — you'd think that they'd want to sell some. You can read my full review here under MikeH: 192|14 I'm not pushing M-Audio. In fact, I do not care what you buy. As long as it's the current generation, it's all (really) good. If you like the way the Scarlett Gen 3 or the Mackie PROFxv3 or MOTU M2/4 etc. get it. Do not pay attention to RT Latency numbers — it's all the same and dependent on sample rates and buffer size. The difference between them is less than moving your ears 2 feet closer or further to your monitor speakers with the PreSonus Thunderbolt 3 interfaces being the fastest—barely. It's all inexpensive. I would not buy the older gear. No matter how it gets marked down on closeout, the new stuff is the better bargain. The DAC itself is probably the least part of the equation when it comes to sound quality. The analog components between your audio source and the DAC chip play a much bigger part. Like you mentioned with the SSL that it has it's "vintage" circuit, but it probably has higher quality components than the M-Audio or Focusrite. Either way, you probably won't hear the difference, and not many people can.
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BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Mike and Simon, many thanks for these spot-on comments. I am especially impressed because while I don't understand 80% of your technical comments, the recommendations come through loud and clear :-)
As a related aside, the Eon One Compact has a built-in mixer for its four channels (two XLR/1/4" combo jacks, one 1/4" jack, and one 1/8" aux in jack). One of the XLR jacks has phantom power. It has basic analog controls on the body of the speaker, but the Bluetooth app offers impressive EQ/effects control over each individual channel, plus a master out EQ.
Unfortunately no USB input.
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Yup, that's why the SM58 is the gold standard for live vocal mics! Well, for rock shows at least... Mike and Simon, many thanks for these spot-on comments. I am especially impressed because while I don't understand 80% of your technical comments, the recommendations come through loud and clear :-)
As a related aside, the Eon One Compact has a built-in mixer for its four channels (two XLR/1/4" combo jacks, one 1/4" jack, and one 1/8" aux in jack). One of the XLR jacks has phantom power. It has basic analog controls on the body of the speaker, but the Bluetooth app offers impressive EQ/effects control over each individual channel, plus a master out EQ.
Unfortunately no USB input. You're very welcome Tim, glad to put my knowledge to good use! That Eon sounds pretty good, always been a fan of JBL stuff.
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Yup, that's why the SM58 is the gold standard for live vocal mics! I've got one. It's kept in a bag of spare gear and usually never leaves my car, but I know it will work if I need it.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Would Peavey exist without that? No matter how much beer was dumped into your amp or PA, there was no way it wasn't going to work once the beer was dumped out. What do you mean by, "does it sound good?" That was never the point.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
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Yes, I have a 2i2 3rd gen right next to me, and I had a 2i2 1st gen before I upgraded to my current RME. I consider the Focusrite "studio or home" reliable but not "toss it around at a gig and pour beer on it" reliable. The main reason is because the pots and jacks are only board mounted, not fixed to the case at all. So if you trip on a cable and yank the Focusrite to the floor it can break the jack off the PCB much easier than the Mackie who's jacks are screwed to the metal case.
This may or may not be an issue to the OP, if he takes care of his stuff and doesn't let others handle it for him.
The DAC itself is probably the least part of the equation when it comes to sound quality. The analog components between your audio source and the DAC chip play a much bigger part. Like you mentioned with the SSL that it has it's "vintage" circuit, but it probably has higher quality components than the M-Audio or Focusrite.
Either way, you probably won't hear the difference, and not many people can.
With the new stuff, the DAC, Mic Pres and 'phone amps are all on the same chip. It's much quieter and has a noticeably faster round trip than the previous gen. You won't hear the difference between your Scarlet Gen 3 and any of the others because there is none (the marketing departments don't want you to know this, of course). You should hear a big difference between it and your 1st gen, however. As for hearing the difference between brands, again, no. Except for SSL's switchable circuit and M-Audio tweaking of the pres, it all sounds the same because it is all the same. The switches, jacks, pots, circuit boards, layout etc. — that's where things vary. I may use the M-Audio at my desk but a Mackie PROFx10v3 or my old 1402vlz is what goes to the gig.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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Back to the OP. The Dragonfly Red is also using a chip from the same family as all the new Fast USB interfaces. This one I wouldn't have to tear down to see since they advertise one of the brands that DAC chip is sold under.
For the same $169.99 as the Dragonfly Red, you can get a 2-channel interface such as the Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen. The Presonus Studio 24c adds MIDI and an I/O blend control for $10 less. For another $10 less, there is the Mackie PROFx6v3 with 6 channels in and onboard effects with pan switches in a mixer format—no MIDI, however.
Again, all use the same DAC (and its excellent) but there are four levels of functionality.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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Back to the OP. The Dragonfly Red is also using a chip from the same family as all the new Fast USB interfaces. This one I wouldn't have to tear down to see since they advertise one of the brands that DAC chip is sold under.
For the same $169.99 as the Dragonfly Red, you can get a 2-channel interface such as the Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen. The Presonus Studio 24c adds MIDI and an I/O blend control for $10 less. For another $10 less, there is the Mackie PROFx6v3 with 6 channels in and onboard effects with pan switches in a mixer format—no MIDI, however.
Again, all use the same DAC (and its excellent) but there are four levels of functionality. Thanks, Mike, this has been a real education for me. I just ordered the two-channel Mackie, because my only application for this is to get a good laptop signal into a powered speaker for live performance using the smallest/lightest/most reliable hardware possible. Given that the powered speaker is mono and will have only one available input for the laptop signal, my initial thought on summing the output is to go to Preferences > Overrides and uncheck "panning" under "Allow loading of any of these settings". Anything I'm missing here/other ideas on summing the stereo output?
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The Stereo Pan switch is unique to the PROFx6v3 (higher models use pan pots on the Combi input channels). Nearly all other compact interfaces assign everything R/L — the odds output to L while the evens output R. My AIR 192|14, for example, 1,3,5,7 output L while 2,4,6,8 are R. In a DAW, this isn't an issue since these are all Mono ins for Mono tracks but it's a reason I'd never bring the Air to a live gig.
The Mackies let you assign a single output to both channels with that SP switch (or the pan pots on the 10 and above). This lets you take either R or L as a Mono for inputs 1, 2, 3 — and no one else does this. Way nice for a live rig. If you plug into both 3 & 4, then those become stereo R/L.
5/6 is a 1/8" TRS designed for your iOS, Android, mp3 player etc. and is always stereo out. It has additional functionality controlled by the Break and To Phones switches. It's not designed to be mixed into the other channels live. I recorded a number of instruments directly from my iPhone and iPad plugged into 5/6.
The To Phones switch is either Mono or Stereo depending on position — you'll have to play with it to see what I mean.
Although the Mackie PROFxv3 is only stereo out over USB (even the 30 channel), it is 4 channel in. USB 3/4 are fold back channels and that can be very useful when recording.
I have one each of the 6, 10 and 12 channel versions in addition to a MOTU M4 and my AIR 192|14.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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