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#654586 05/05/21 02:01 PM
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Well hello, everyone, it's me again with yet more questions! Y'all have been SO kind and it's made the difference between my being hopelessly lost and actually making some progress. Thank you from the bottom of my heart!

In the Technical Question thread, Herb posted a link to his song and I can sing mine to that sound... so as improbable as it may be, I believe Blues-n-Ballads Girl here wrote a rock song. It was inspired when an ambulance went wailing past for the eighth time in one day (and another four went by that night while I was writing it!!).

Now I would like to get your advice on styles. I've been listening to them (some days till they blur together!) and having a lot of trouble choosing the right one for my song. I admit to a MAJOR handicap: I have a ballad voice and ballad ears... and I don't. like. static. It's laughable that Acoustic Girl here is writing rock songs! I think the problem I have with static is probably due to my ears ringing (24/7 loud as a vacuum cleaner); distortion makes it worse. BUT in the service of this song I need to go where I have never gone before and cross my fingers I won't hear "He's dead, Jim." eek

I need something driven, urgent, a little chaotic, with an even feel. My keyboard has a style called "Contemporary Rock" which is actually a cleaner sound than I expected, but it just doesn't work. There's no despair in it, no fear, yanno? I don't need anger and I really can't deal with heavy metal but since the song was sparked by those ambulances wailing past at all hours of the day and night the style's got to be pretty driven.

So far the closest I've got to Herb's style with something I think I can handle is Brit Invasion Fast. I don't want piano at all, and I doubt I'll want organ, although I do have background vocals. I like multiple guitars and it might be weird, but so far I'm using both the bass in the style and my own bass MIDI (I panned them to -8 and 8; might pan them farther).

Do you have a favorite style? Is there something which would be suitably angsty with less static? Maybe it really needs that sound, though. Seriously, if someone with a rock voice (and good ears!) were to sing the song, it could work with a style like Herb used.

I'm open to both RT and MIDI tracks. Thanks for any suggestions you might have!!!


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We are kinda in the same boat. I don't have a rock voice either (at least not unless it's more southern). In the "style-picker", you can toggle by genre and locate all the styles you have under "heavy rock". That's likely to be your best starting place for finding something in the feel and tempo.

Beyond that, if you want to use other guitars added to (or replacing) guitars in the style, you have a couple of obvious options.

1. If you use a DAW and common DAW effects, you can apply additional compression to a guitar track which can, when not mixed too loud, give the feel of heavier, rocky guitars without as much in-yer-face volume.

2. Although many of the rock guitars (especially rhythm) do this by default, populate your chord sheet with chords like C5, Bb5, etc. This is a so-called "power chord" which leaves out the third making the chord under distortion less "crunchy", while still being heavy. This might actually work better under Medium Rock or some other classification.

That would definitely be my approach if I was doing what you are wanting to do.


BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground
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Thank you, Tangmo!!! I appreciate your advice. I'll try the compression when I go to RB.

You know, I automatically default to 7th chords, dominants and minors, probably because of the blues influence. I can try the power chords; that might make a big difference. Thanks for that idea!


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Power chords also sound great sustained, so you might consider going through your song and changing all the chords to held power chords (i.e.change chords from something like C to C5...) and render out only the guitar track using an electric guitar.

You can then layer held strums these behind "normal" electric guitar chords, so you get more grit without having to put them up front in the mix.


-- David Cuny
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Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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Considering that I consider myself a "country guy"........


I don't fear exploring other styles. I quite often use rock styles in my country songs. I used LA HARD ROCK in several early on in my time with BB.

With BB, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of really great sounding rock styles complete with the guitars. I did a song a while back that was called Under the Black.... a song about pirates and the series Black Sails that is on Starz TV.... (great series BTW) I used a rock style and while I really wanted to replace the rhythm guitars in the style with my own, I realized that they fit perfectly and there was no reason to actually replace them so I left them.

https://m.soundcloud.com/guitarhacker/under-the-black/s-uEQ34eUZiTe

I provided the leads and one of the rhythm sustained guitars. In the verses, and after the solo, you hear the BB guitars.

To sing rock... it's mostly the attitude and phrasing. It's not sweet and pretty.


For example:

Under the Black is _DOOMED which is a rock cello ballad style

We Ain't Got There Yet is _ANARCHY. which is a Punk Rock style.

You never know which style is going to get the job done until you play with several ..... try it.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/07/21 05:14 AM.

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Originally Posted By: dcuny
Power chords also sound great sustained, so you might consider going through your song and changing all the chords to held power chords (i.e.change chords from something like C to C5...) and render out only the guitar track using an electric guitar.

You can then layer held strums these behind "normal" electric guitar chords, so you get more grit without having to put them up front in the mix.


Hi, David. Ha! Your sig line made me laugh! If only it were a control knob, eh?

Thanks for the advice. I suspect the reason my song doesn't sound right is the chords. Been away from the computer a lot the past couple days, so tomorrow I'll get back into the song and see what happens when I change it up like that.

Thanks again!


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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
I used LA HARD ROCK in several early on in my time with BB.

With BB, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of really great sounding rock styles complete with the guitars. I did a song a while back that was called Under the Black.... https://m.soundcloud.com/guitarhacker/under-the-black/s-uEQ34eUZiTe

To sing rock... it's mostly the attitude and phrasing. It's not sweet and pretty.

Under the Black is _DOOMED which is a rock cello ballad style

We Ain't Got There Yet is _ANARCHY. which is a Punk Rock style.


I think you're becoming my hero, there, Mister!! I'll say it again, thank you thank you! You really seem to understand what it is I'm looking for. Going to try my song with power chords (thank you Tangmo and David!!) and _ANARCHY and see what happens. Is it weird to think that if I hate it, I'll finally be on the right track? **laughing at myself**

I actually do have another one which demands to be rock, so I'll check out the other styles you mentioned as well.

Not sweet and pretty. I'm ALWAYS going for sweet and pretty. Oy, lol... this is stretching me as a singer almost as much as learning BIAB is stretching me as an arranger.

Thank you for the link to Under the Black. You did an amazing job with it.


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HI Cathie,

here are my thoughts, maybe useful or complete garbage. :-)

Perhaps you could use my method, when I'm writing songs in BIAB. I usually pick a style with 1 or 2 instruments, when composing. Once the song has it's basic form, I start to replace and add Real Tracks or Midi Tracks (mostly for being treated in the DAW by better sounding patches than General MIDI instruments).

Once I have all the Tracks with instruments to my taste I start to work with listening to, where I want my instruments to play and where I want them to be silent. When that is done I start to work with "breaks", helds ect. During that process I often run into the frustration of not being in full control of Real Tracks and how they play, but it still gives me the idea of where and how I want the instruments to sound. At the same time I decide if I'm able to replace any of the tracks with my own playing style to suit the purpose of the song.

When it comes to singing, my voice is not a typical rock or pop vocal, and very often my vocal results never sound like I imagined them in me head from the start or during the process. This is why I spend days, weeks or months to practice my songs, and try to work with the "rhythm" of the lyrics, my flow - these two exercises sometimes show me, that I have to change the lyrics into something more singable. Also I pay special attention to the parts of the song, where I change in register and how to approach that and learn my body and brain to remember it. When I feel confident and have a clear idea on how to perform the vocals - I go to my DAW and start to record my voice (15-20 takes for each part of the song) and afterwards I spend ages with the built in pitch correction and my effect chain to get as near to my idea as possible.

During my last 10 years as DIY home studio musician I learned quite a bit about my vocals, and I accepted that it's at best an average vocal for a sparetime amateur choir, but I've decided that once the pandemic has lost the grip of society, I certainly will invest in a vocal coach. I also learned to accept that only 20% of what I compose passes the eye of the needle, and make it to the DAW, and even less % is made public available. It's a constant, and sometimes very frustrating, ongoing process towards mastering perfection and accept and acknowledge the imperfect self.

You made your reading so far - I hope it made just a little sense.


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Originally Posted By: Peters Garage
HI Cathie,

here are my thoughts, maybe useful or complete garbage. :-)
.....You made your reading so far - I hope it made just a little sense.


Hi! It's very nice to meet you! Thank you for sharing your method with me--yes, it was useful! It helps a lot that you mentioned how frustrated you get. I'm about to throw this thing through a wall, myself. NOTHING works properly.

I suppose my problem as a composer is that I always start with lyrics. Starting instead with chords means that more than half my work has to be done first in notation software--and I wouldn't mind that at all if I could just bring it over to BIAB, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how. It just never works.

Maybe I need to be in RB instead of BIAB, but I figured I need to learn how to change out the patches and tracks.

Vocals have always been my weak link in the chain. I like my voice, but it does take 20 or 30 takes to get a full song. Might not be as bad if I'm not trying to play the keyboard at the same time, and one reason I wanted BIAB is that I wanted to be able to record parts of the song instead of going for one long perfect take. But again, maybe that needs to be in RB rather than BIAB. I don't know, I just don't know.


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Hi, Cathie.

BiaB can be really frustrating if you're looking for a particular sound. My most successful songs have usually been by finding a style that I like, and then write the melody to that, and add the lyrics last.

It's completely backwards, but the benefits is that you don't have to search for a song to match a set of lyrics, and changing lyrics is often easier than changing an arrangement.

Of course, the downside is that writing lyrics feels like solving in a rhyming crossword puzzle. That's not always a bad thing, though! Sometimes that's what songwriting feels like anyway. And setting constraints can often force you to be more creative. wink

OK, back to your problem.

When working with electric guitars, keep in mind that there is the sound of the guitar isn't just the "raw" guitar sound, but it's typically run through a number of effects pedals, and then through an amp, which is then recorded by a microphone.

By default, that's the sound you get when you select electric guitars in BiaB.

But more recently, BiaB also allows you to grab the "raw" DI (Direct Input) unprocessed sound of the electric guitar. This isn't available for some of the older RealTracks, as they were recorded before this feature was added.

But you can add effects to them anyway, and sometimes it works well.

You can find this option in the Assign RealTracks to Track dialog in the top middle portion as the Direct Input checkbox.

There's also a Held option, so you don't have to do that tedious process of changing all the chords to holds in the chordsheet like I described. Sorry about not mentioning that before. I thought that feature existed, but forgot where it was. That's often the case with BiaB features.

BiaB allows you to then add a simulated effects chain to the DI sound, so you have freedom to modify the tone on your own.

For example, if you select a DI guitar for a RealTrack, you can then go to the Plugins tab of the Mixer window, click the first column, and choose Choose Plugin. There are a number of built-in effects:

  • PG Distortion
  • PG Flanger
  • PG Guitar Amp
  • PG Tremolo

You can even chain these together. For example, you can put PG Distortion in the first slot (that is, the first column), followed by PG Guitar Amp in the second slot. Crank up the distortion of the first effect, and then the gain of the amp, and you've got some classic distorted guitar.

My son just walked by and asked what guitar effects I was using. I told him it was the built-in BiaB effects, and his response was "Sounds good". laugh

If that's not enough, you can find very good free amp and guitar effects. For example, check out FreeAmp3.

At one point, BiaB used to also include the free version of AmpliTube Custom Shop, but I don't think it's part of the install anymore. If you want to install it, click the provided link. wink

Anyway, using this you should be able to get the custom guitar "tone" that you're looking for, if you don't like the one that comes with the RealTrack.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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Cathie
try this alt approach to getting your song ideas down.
(ive done a ton of songs useing pg products over the years.
whether they or i are any good ; who knows.LOL.
but i feel a great sense of satisfaction at takeing an idea from my brain and finally hearing back the full finished song after many hours of work. thus pg products DO WORK.)
AN ALT METHOD.
1. fix firmly in your mind how you want the song to end up.
2. open up realband.
3. go to the option fill trak with drum pattern.
and find a drum pattern you like.
4. now layout the chords to your song in rb.
5. haveing done above just go to RT picker and search function acoustic guitar STRUM. FIND ONE STRUM YOU LIKE THAT FITS YOUR SONG VISION IN YOUR MIND. IE ONE WHERE YOU GO "YEAH THATS SWEET".
at this point cathie the whole idea is to build what are termed "scratch idea traks". ie your just getting the rough idea of the song down. and the arrangement generated in a simple fashion.
(think scratchpad.)
ie pulling the song idea out of ones mind and getting it down in a scratch form.
6.now sing a rough vocal on a spare rb trak. (you have 48.) and repeat vocal AGAIN ON A NEW TRAK. this will give the vocal "character". maybe experiment with some pg fx like echo chorus (just a tad) on one of the vocal traks youve recorded.
7. NOW STEP BACK AND EVALUATE. what does the song need versus what you hear in your mind ? any arrangement changes ? write down in a notebook what the song needs !
8. if happy with arrange now list what other instruments you hear in your mind and start building up test traks useing other RT's and midi traks.

sorry i dont have space to continue. but hopefully this will get you started on the foundation of your song.
GOOD LUCK !
ps if you need a decent audio interface. many are listed in the rb forum by lots of pg users. see the asio sound devices thread. i assume you have a good vocal mic.

best
oldmuso

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/15/21 01:41 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
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David, oldmuso, you guys are so kind!! I appreciate your help and I'll try your methods once I get this thing working.

It's not the writing process which has me so frustrated, you know? It's the actual BIAB process. Going to give it one more try and then if I still can't get it to work properly I'll ask for help in the live chat. It might be that it didn't install correctly or something. Honestly don't know.


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Hi Cathie,

frustrations, anger and lack of progress go hand in hand with making music *eeek*

Sometimes when I have the melody (tune) I go to another software in my DAW - the tool is Scaler 2, where you can enter the midi notes from the piano/synth, and it'll determine which key fits the best to your melody. This is sometimes very helpful.

When it comes to recording in parts - I suggest you go to your DAW (Ableton, Logic Pro X or likewise). In Logic I can create a take folder and record the same piece over and over again, and end up with maybe 15-20 vocal takes of the same part of the song. Afterwards I can comb (select) from each take and assemble the vocal from there. (I'm not sure which other DAW offer this feature). When recording vocals, I never play at the same time - I need to be 100% focused, when I sing. I have no stage or live experience....so that is why, I do not master singing and playing at the same time. blush

BIAB has so many capabilities, and my main frustration is, that it doesn't always fit to my way of thinking.


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Originally Posted By: Peters Garage
Hi Cathie,

frustrations, anger and lack of progress go hand in hand with making music *eeek*


Hi! Thank you. Is your name Peter, by chance?

I'm still ready to throw it through a wall. I decided to start over with a different song, a bossa nova I recorded a couple years ago. After I watched the tutorials on youtube again (and took notes, I even took notes!), I brought the audio into BIAB. It took me seven separate tries to figure out that I had to set the key, the choruses and the tempo before I bring in an audio--not mentioned in the tutorials--and then figure out how to sync it up so it starts at Bar 1 because the command buttons are missing from the Audio Edit window. I finally figured out that there are three separate ways to get into the Audio Chord Wizard and only the third way has all the command buttons... so on the eighth version of this song I finally got it synced in the right key and at the right tempo, only to be completely unable to set the bar lines because that version of ACW won't let me see the whole thing and won't let me move any bar lines, just keeps adding new ones--AND it changed the key and tempo on me. **headdesk** Yep, another one thrown away.

I'll probably try again today now that I've had a day's break. I sang this one well and there's a bolero/bossa style which complements my keyboard's bossa style. If I can get the barlines to line up this time, I can fix all the chords the ACW got wrong and then start bringing in the RT and see what I get.

IF. It's really a big IF. Oy.


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
Originally Posted By: Peters Garage
Hi Cathie,

frustrations, anger and lack of progress go hand in hand with making music *eeek*


Hi! Thank you. Is your name Peter, by chance?

I'm still ready to throw it through a wall. I decided to start over with a different song, a bossa nova I recorded a couple years ago. After I watched the tutorials on youtube again (and took notes, I even took notes!), I brought the audio into BIAB. It took me seven separate tries to figure out that I had to set the key, the choruses and the tempo before I bring in an audio--not mentioned in the tutorials--and then figure out how to sync it up so it starts at Bar 1 because the command buttons are missing from the Audio Edit window. I finally figured out that there are three separate ways to get into the Audio Chord Wizard and only the third way has all the command buttons... so on the eighth version of this song I finally got it synced in the right key and at the right tempo, only to be completely unable to set the bar lines because that version of ACW won't let me see the whole thing and won't let me move any bar lines, just keeps adding new ones--AND it changed the key and tempo on me. **headdesk** Yep, another one thrown away.

I'll probably try again today now that I've had a day's break. I sang this one well and there's a bolero/bossa style which complements my keyboard's bossa style. If I can get the barlines to line up this time, I can fix all the chords the ACW got wrong and then start bringing in the RT and see what I get.

IF. It's really a big IF. Oy.


Hi Cathie,

Peter it is :-)

ACW is useful, if you can make it work. And I agree the tutorial is an area of improvement, including the manual btw. (I've used the old version mostly, because that's what my silly head can figure out and make it work)

I would aim straight at BIAB Support for help and guidance - perhaps we might end up with an improved tutorial.

All the best of luck


Greeting Peter


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Cathie, you said that half of your work is done in a notation program and that you might need a few different tracks for your vocal. The easiest way for vocal is in RealBand.

Since you are using ACW I will assume your notation is exporting audio, so try this:

Export you notation's audi file. Open Realband and in the track window drag and drop your notation's audio file. Be sure to start the drop on measure 1 and set RB's tempo to match your notation's tempo. Open the chord window and click on reinterpret chords. This will give you the chords extracted from your notation's audio file. While in the chord window select a style then generate all BiaB tracks. Presto your ready to sing!

You may have to select different styles and regenerate a number of times to get the results you need but you would have to do the same in BiaB. Also if you started in BiaB you would have to transfer your tracks to RB anyway so you could record your vocal tracks.

Note that I do not use RB but I did the above and everything worked just fine for me.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

PS - On a side note I do as little as I can in BiaB prior to moving the tracks to Studio One Pro 5.5, my DAW. YMMV


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Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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Cathie.
further ideas that might lessen the frustration level.

i dont know about you ; but when i get a song idea i want to get it down FAST in rough form in 15 to 30 minutes. so heres an idea.

1. as i mentioned realband(RB) has a usefull feature in the menus called fill trak with drum pattern for most music genres.
find one you like. (also set KEY AND TEMPO in RB).
then fill a trak with it. (you can also make your own guide drum patterns.)
2. now , if your piano has sounds built in. on a new trak record yourself playing the piano by takeing the audio out of your piano into line in on your audio interface.
(what usb audio interface are you useing ?)and record your piano playing on a new audio trak in rb.
now repeat with variations on a new audio trak for variety.
if you make a piano mistake no worries. just play thru it, and do an overdub later on.
3. now record a couple of traks of vocals on 2 different traks, and add some pg echo chorus on the traks subtly.
4. so NOW you have 5 traks. one drum guide trak.
2 piano guide traks and 2 voc guide traks.
use RB mixer to mix to your liking. and THUS you have the foundation of your song idea QUICKLY.

SEE WHAT I MEAN. ?? doable in half an hour in total probably.
I USE THIS METHOD TO ALSO TEST OUT HOW WELL MY LYRICS ARE WORKING IN THE SONG. AS WELL AS "AM I USEING THE RIGHT KEY FOR MY VOCALS".
in summary no entering notation or other steps needed.
(but NOTE RB has loads of notation features. just read the manual and watch vids etc.)
cathie , the above fast song method is no different than what a lot of big recording studios used to do ages ago before all this technology we have today.
often the big studios would set up guide traks with the songwriter/arranger and THEN bring in the heavy duty pro session musicians to record against the guide traks and build the song up from there.

5. after doing above and being happy with arrangement AND LYRICS.
now initiate auto accompany features in RB etc etc.
and away you go generating RT's and // or midi on different RB traks.
ps MAKE SURE YOU SAVE TO *.seq often for backup.

best
i-like-a-fast-rock-song-with-great-lead-breaks-oldmuso lol.








Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/19/21 03:08 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Y'all are SO cool, so generous with your time and help. Thank you, Peter, thank you, oldmuso.

I might very well need to be in RB, but my audio is already recorded.

So, in BIAB... After watching yet more tutorials and taking yet more notes, I finally figured out how to bring in an audio file and sync it up, how to get the barlines properly set--my tempo was 90.1, what the heck? Had to equalize that--how to set a tempo, how to get the chords and then correct them, how to bring in various RT at different bars, how to use chord settings... I got all that figured out, I figured out how to set the volume sliders on the mixers to get a sound I liked... and I rendered it to MP3. **facepalm** It's NINE megs!! For an MP3!! And the static!! There was no static on my audio file, there's no static in BIAB. Where the heck did all that static come from?!!! How the heck do I get rid of it?!!

Is this maybe the point where I absolutely have to move to RB? Can I drop my whole SGU file in there and then save it as an MP3 without the static? **facepalm** It's been DAYS of work on a song which was already recorded. I dread trying to do this work on a song where I have to actually add a new recording.

And honestly, guys, after all the help everyone has given me, I'm really disappointed to not be able to have anything I can point to and say, "Look what you helped me do!" I know it's only a freshman effort and I'm no pro, but I was proud of it anyway. **sigh**


Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
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This has developed into one of the best threads, yet; worth copying and pasting into a doc for personal use and reference. One thing I find interesting is the variety of reponses to the technology. We are lucky in that BIAB is such a top quality product.
I'll add something. A blank score (Crescendo) and a backing track (Box) and we're ready to score in lyrics and melody. A melody that fits the progression is easier said than done. Melody is joined at the hip with lyrics. It helps to rough in the landing notes in measures and lines. Landing notes work with changes. Humming and playing an abbreviated bass line gets you going. Just thoughts, fwtaw.


Link: www.soundcloud.com/ed_shaw (Feel Free to Use)
https://drooble.com/edward.shaw/hymn/index.htm
Biab for WIN 2020 -- Win 10 64bit -- Reaper/Audacity
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Hi Ed, it's nice to meet you! I have to say that both of my threads are filled with awesome advice from so many people. Really truly impressed by this community, by everyone's friendly generosity. I really have learned so much from everyone!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I think the thing which trips me up--besides the steep learning curve, I mean--is that my songs are already written. I thought I could bring in the MIDIs from my notation program and add RT to them. So far I haven't mastered that skill at all, so I tried bringing in an audio of a song I recorded a couple years ago. It was a PROCESS, to be sure, and I threw away a lot of faulty attempts, but I finally got it right. Only now I guess I have to learn how to turn an SGU into an MP3.

Every once in a while I have to completely walk away from the computer and go back to my keyboard to reassure myself that I'm not totally incompetent. **wry look** My guess is that someday I'll look back on these months and say, "oh, yeah, it was a little tough, but I got it eventually," and completely minimize what I'm going through right now, lol... OY. But I have to learn this. If I want my songs to go anywhere at all, even if it's just Soundcloud, I've got to learn this.


Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
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Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

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Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

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Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

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