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Back to your original question?

When is it ok…?

When the song demands it.

When it's fun or funny (not always the same thing).


When is it not ok…?

When the only reason you probably have is that you can.

When the change is so awkward that it sounds lame. Lame is in the ear of the beholder but you need to be the filter.


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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
I eventually decided to see if MuseScore had the ability to create triplets and discovered that it does, which compelled me to modify the bridge in my lead sheet by replacing the 3/4 measures with 4/4 triplets.


OH! Here it is!! Listening now.


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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
https://youtu.be/QeHWYLTDh-s (triplets on vocals only)

https://youtu.be/4qNwQhcABwY (triplets on vocals and instruments)


I definitely prefer the first one. The instrumental triplets are too fast and have a mechanical, rushed sound which affects the melody negatively. But the first version flows and is what I expect to hear, triplets on top and straight beneath. It's a really common jazz technique, also common in Latin music, and I think it adds a lot to songs in any genre--so there you go, now you know I'm biased towards triplets. **smiling**

I notice you added to the ending for the second version. It's a lovely song. I like it. When you combine the vocal-only triplets with the new ending, does it feel flowing to you, satisfying? It feels that way to me.


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
Originally Posted By: muzikluver
https://youtu.be/QeHWYLTDh-s (triplets on vocals only)

https://youtu.be/4qNwQhcABwY (triplets on vocals and instruments)


I definitely prefer the first one. The instrumental triplets are too fast and have a mechanical, rushed sound which affects the melody negatively. But the first version flows and is what I expect to hear, triplets on top and straight beneath. It's a really common jazz technique, also common in Latin music, and I think it adds a lot to songs in any genre--so there you go, now you know I'm biased towards triplets. **smiling**

I notice you added to the ending for the second version. It's a lovely song. I like it. When you combine the vocal-only triplets with the new ending, does it feel flowing to you, satisfying? It feels that way to me.

Thanks, Cathie, for listening to these demos and for sharing your thoughts. The endings are the same for both of these new demos, but the notation for the end of the bridge is slightly different. The notation for the version with the triplets for both vocals and instruments has a one measure time signature change from 4/4 to 3/4. However, the duration of the pause after the instrumental hold is exactly the same. So, I suppose that either notation could be used.

I'm not sure which one I prefer because I'm so used to listening to Demo #5. Now that I've had a break from hearing all of them (I've been working on two of my other songs), I need to listen to them again with fresh ears to see which one I like the best. Nevertheless, I'll want to know which one my producer prefers before making a final decision which one to use for my album because he has many more years of songwriting and performing experience than I have. That should happen sometime in the next few weeks. I'll let you know what he thinks of them both as well as of my Demo #5.

Thanks, too, for your compliments on this song. I'm glad you like it because, contrary to my producer's reaction to the original version that I shared with him, your positive feedback strengthens my case that this song is definitely good enough to include on my album.


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Oh dear… Artist v Producer.

Good luck.


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Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran
Oh dear… Artist v Producer.

Good luck.

Actually, my producer isn't "just" a producer. He's also a songwriter himself and an excellent multi-instrumentalist and singer. He was the lead singer and drummer for a band that he was part of back in the 80s before he eventually decided to become a producer in the mid 90s. Besides drums, he plays the guitar (acoustic, electric, and bass) and keyboard. Plus, he has written and produced numerous orchestral pieces for various purposes using Cakewalk's library of orchestral instruments. So, I would have to say that he's much more of an artist than I am because, while I do play the guitar, I don't perform or sing.


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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Thanks, too, for your compliments on this song. I'm glad you like it because, contrary to my producer's reaction to the original version that I shared with him, your positive feedback strengthens my case that this song is definitely good enough to include on my album.


It's an earworm kind of song--the opening of the chorus especially--and I think when he hears it with triplets on top and a straight accompaniment below, it'll make more sense to him.


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Thanks, too, for your compliments on this song. I'm glad you like it because, contrary to my producer's reaction to the original version that I shared with him, your positive feedback strengthens my case that this song is definitely good enough to include on my album.


It's an earworm kind of song--the opening of the chorus especially--and I think when he hears it with triplets on top and a straight accompaniment below, it'll make more sense to him.

I'm sure you're right because one of the things he insisted on when he heard my first demo was that it shouldn't have ANY tempo change or even a time signature change. Instead, he wanted to use fast-played instruments (like a staccato violin) to simulate the brevity of this life. However, the bridge lyrics are such that they demand some kind of increased tempo or, at the very least, a time signature change from 4/4 to 3/4. But besides this issue, the main objection that my producer had to the original demo that I shared with him was the random chords that I had chosen, which I knew needed some more work because I had rushed through them just a day or two earlier so that I could finish my "first cut" demo in time to share it with him during our next session that we had scheduled. Now that the chord structure has been improved substantially, I'm confident that he'll have a much different and more receptive reaction when I share my newest demos with him in two or three weeks from now.


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In that case, I would definitely choose the version with the straight accompaniment and no time change. But you might consider just eliminating that bar between the bridge and the chorus altogether, because when I listen to it (and I just did again), I find myself expecting the chorus to start pretty seamlessly from the ending of the bridge.

And although you didn't ask for this and should feel free to disregard it if it doesn't fit your vision for the song, I really missed the fingerpicking from the chorus when you changed the style at the bridge. It would flow more smoothly if the style stays the same, and that smooth flow is part of the song's appeal... I'm thinking it could easily be a meditation song during a church service, and those songs are all about creating and sustaining serenity, you know? But again, if this doesn't fit your vision, you should disregard it.


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
In that case, I would definitely choose the version with the straight accompaniment and no time change. But you might consider just eliminating that bar between the bridge and the chorus altogether, because when I listen to it (and I just did again), I find myself expecting the chorus to start pretty seamlessly from the ending of the bridge.

And although you didn't ask for this and should feel free to disregard it if it doesn't fit your vision for the song, I really missed the fingerpicking from the chorus when you changed the style at the bridge. It would flow more smoothly if the style stays the same, and that smooth flow is part of the song's appeal... I'm thinking it could easily be a meditation song during a church service, and those songs are all about creating and sustaining serenity, you know? But again, if this doesn't fit your vision, you should disregard it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think what you're really asking me to do is to eliminate the piano because the fingerpicking guitar is still there. It's just being drowned out by the piano. I'll have to listen to it without the piano to see if the overall effect is suitable for the bridge. I could also replace the piano with a different instrument---synth perhaps? (I'll have to experiment.) Also, I should mention that my producer will be creating his own arrangement of this song, and that version will have a different sound overall than my BiaB demo has. Otherwise, his "official" version won't mesh with the other songs on my album. So, my plan is to use my demo arrangement for a real singer who would be interested in covering this song some time after I release the "official" version that my producer will create in his studio. Then I'll release that version as a separate single from the album.

Regarding the 3/4 bar between the chorus and bridge, I can easily eliminate it by eliminating the triplet rests in the previous bar, as I did in the lead sheet that I used for Demo #6 that has triplets only on the vocals. IOW, the 3/4 bar with the triplet rests in Demo #7 is just another representation of the lead sheet with a 4/4 bar and no triplet rests in Demo #6.


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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Thanks for the suggestion, but I think what you're really asking me to do is to eliminate the piano because the fingerpicking guitar is still there. It's just being drowned out by the piano.

Oh! maybe a volume change would fix it then.

This song is already an earworm; I heard it all evening last night. I don't know if your producer can do better than that. **smiling**


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Thanks for the suggestion, but I think what you're really asking me to do is to eliminate the piano because the fingerpicking guitar is still there. It's just being drowned out by the piano.

Oh! maybe a volume change would fix it then.

This song is already an earworm; I heard it all evening last night. I don't know if your producer can do better than that. **smiling**

Your definitely right about it being an earworm. It was stuck in my head and playing non-stop for several months. Plus, it keeps coming back into my head because it's such a relaxing song that has a way of pulling me into listening to it and because of the awesome arrangement that BiaB enabled me to create. Though my producer has done better than BiaB with his arrangements for some of my other songs, I think this one is going to be a tough one for him to beat. However, I suspect that he'll create an arrangement that is just as good but with a little different sound. One thing I will insist on him having in his arrangement is a dreamy electric guitar because that's what makes BiaB's arrangement so appealing to me.

Regarding the piano, I did play around with the volume levels but wasn't able to prevent the piano from interfering with the sound of the guitars and still be audible enough to impart its accelerated effect on the overall sound of the bridge. I've had the same kind of thing happen when I added a piano track to some of my other songs, which eventually compelled me to disable the piano track completely and not even use it. I suspect that will be the case with this song as well. At this point, I just don't know what other instrument I could use as its replacement, but I know I need to have some kind of instrumental change in the bridge to enhance the vocal triplets and the message of the lyrics. For now, though, I'm just going to leave it as is until I have time to do lots of experimenting. In the meantime, I'll be taking my new demos of this song to the studio this afternoon at 2 pm and sharing them with my producer for him to evaluate. I'll let you know what happens.


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Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran
Oh dear… Artist v Producer.

Good luck.

It would be more correct to say "Songwriter/Mediocre Guitarist v Producer/Songwriter/Artist/Multi-Instrumentalist" not only because my musical knowledge, skills, and experience pale in comparison to his (as I mentioned in my previous reply to your comment) but also because we definitely don't see "eye to eye" on this song. However, after wrangling back and forth on it for four hours during two separate sessions and an additional two hours on the phone, I finally agreed to let him produce it the way he wants to at a faster tempo (120 bpm instead of 100 bpm) with triplets for the vocals in the bridge and with only the second chorus after the bridge. This will reduce the song's length to around 4:30 instead of around 6:15. In exchange for my concession, he has agreed to also produce a version the way I want it at 100 bpm if I'm not totally happy with his version when he's finished with it. I'll have to pay for both versions, of course, but he'll give me a discount on the second version. So, it will be interesting to see how his version turns out. I'll let you know.


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Originally Posted By: Cathie
In that case, I would definitely choose the version with the straight accompaniment and no time change. But you might consider just eliminating that bar between the bridge and the chorus altogether, because when I listen to it (and I just did again), I find myself expecting the chorus to start pretty seamlessly from the ending of the bridge.

And although you didn't ask for this and should feel free to disregard it if it doesn't fit your vision for the song, I really missed the fingerpicking from the chorus when you changed the style at the bridge. It would flow more smoothly if the style stays the same, and that smooth flow is part of the song's appeal... I'm thinking it could easily be a meditation song during a church service, and those songs are all about creating and sustaining serenity, you know? But again, if this doesn't fit your vision, you should disregard it.

Thanks again for your input on the style change during the bridge that adversely affected the fingerpicking guitars. I thought that I would have to substitute a different piano or a completely different instrument in order to achieve the same effect without adversely affecting the fingerpicking guitars, but the fix actually turned to be much simpler and easier than that. All I needed to do was change the piano from stereo to mono, which eliminated the interference that had existed in both the left and right speakers. This change enabled me to retain the "fast-paced" effect of the piano without the interference. Another slight change I made was to change the drum track during the bridge from normal time to double time. This further enhanced the "fast-paced" effect that I wanted to achieve.

Regarding your suggestion for me to use triplets on the bridge vocals only, I am definitely in agreement with that because the instruments sound way too fast with the triplet effect (which is actually the equivalent of a 50% boost in bpm). But after listening to my Demo #6 version numerous times, the bridge vocals seemed as if they still needed a little something more than just the triplet effect. So, I did some experimenting with a very slight and gradual tempo change leading up to and continuing through the bridge and found that an additional 1 bpm boost in the tempo for six consecutive measures was just enough to do the trick without producing any of the objectionable "jarring" effects that exists in my Demo #5 version. IOW, I gradually increased the tempo from 100 bpm to 106 bpm for the bridge and then dropped it back down again to 100 for the rest of the song. I have to thank Steve (sslechta) and MarioD for their recommendations on how to create such a tempo change with a transition that wouldn't be noticeable to the listener. However, because I only increased the tempo by 1 bpm per measure instead of by 2 bpm per measure (as Steve did in his example), I was able to create a smooth enough transition using BiaB instead of a DAW.

In response to your comment about "expecting the chorus to start pretty seamlessly from the ending of the bridge," I think there needs to be a slight pause between the end of the bridge and the start of the chorus to complement the effect of the "hold" on all of the instruments. In fact, if you watch the notes as they're being played in the video, you'll see that the instrumental "hold" occurs at the beginning of the same measure in which the pickup note for the chorus begins. So, I really can't bring these two any closer together than they are. You'll also see, though, that I removed the 3/4 measure to eliminate any confusion or misunderstanding that its presence may cause. However, the transition from the bridge into the chorus is still the same as it's been in all of the demos I created for this song, including my newest demo (Demo #8) which I think is the best I can do until I'm able to have a real vocalist sing and record a vocal track for this song. You can listen to my newest demo at the link below:

https://youtu.be/UZyiAtMC45E

Thanks again to you and to everyone else for your feedback, suggestions, and recommendations on this song. It's made a huge difference and has resulted in a much better version of this song than I would have been able to create otherwise on my own.


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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
https://youtu.be/UZyiAtMC45E

Thanks again to you and to everyone else for your feedback, suggestions, and recommendations on this song. It's made a huge difference and has resulted in a much better version of this song than I would have been able to create otherwise on my own.

Demo 8 really flows well! Thank you for letting me be part of your process. As always, feel free to disregard the unsolicited advice which follows. **smile**

In our society, the 3 minute song has become a convention. Going against that convention takes a pretty strong belief in one's song. I'm sharing a quote with you because I think it applies here. "...you should trust your instincts, and believe in yourself, as all the successful artists have had to do at some stage in their careers." Michael Eaton, 2016

Eternity is a marvelous contemplative meditational song, and I believe it has value at a slower tempo. I've sped the youtube up to 125 bpm to see how your producer hears it, and it becomes upbeat rather than contemplative. There's a place for both in Christian music, but if you had to argue over it for four hours, it's obvious your producer doesn't really like the song. My question is this. Why not, given the strength of your BIAB arrangement, simply have your singer record it at your tempo and create a BIAB song with it? Why not release it as a single? Put it on Spotify, tag it Christian, tag it Jesus, maybe tag it meditation, talk it up with your friends, link it on Facebook or Instagram, see if you can get a lot of plays.

Now for a purely technical notation comment on the melody line to make the music easier for your singer to understand. At bar 87 where the triplets start, that should be all quarter notes like it was before. That's what Eleanor is singing (quarter note triplets) so far as I can tell. Bars 88, 90, and 92 should not be triplets at all, but a half note followed by a quarter rest and two even eighth notes--again, that's what Eleanor is singing. Bar 95 is just a half note. You're bouncing back and forth between swing and straight, and that's very good, part of the charm of the song--it's a really common jazz/swing convention that makes a melody flow in a lovely way.

If you do decide to shorten the song, you might consider removing a verse and a chorus to do so without changing the tempo; you could combine verses, since you have repeated lines that could be repurposed. I have longer songs myself and when I first started squeezing them down to meet the 3.5 minute standard it really hurt, felt totally wrong, but I learned to combine the verses and eliminate some time that way. I also experimented with changing the tempo by just 5 beats, reather than by 20 beats, to keep the easy flow of my songs but shave off time (you might not need the tempo increase at the bridge if you try this). Intros and outros can also be shaved down. The song itself is complete at the end of the chorus; your coda is lovely but to me the change in melody and lyrics took away from the feeling of completion. Again, this is unsolicited so feel free to disregard it; you might be better served by having one chorus at the end and only repeating the last line ("How I long for eternity") if you wish to shorten the song and keep the mood. Or you might to decide to keep the coda but only play one chorus.

Lots of options for shortening the song... but here's the thing, Tom. Your song has a specific purpose and you've crafted the lyrics and melody to fit that purpose. Like Mr. Eaton says, "at some point, you have to believe in yourself." Maybe the audience who will love your song is waiting on Spotify or even in a local church. You won't know until you release it.


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Hey Man,

I think there is some really cool stuff going on here.

As the leader of a songwriting organization's NC chapter, I have an idea:

I think you should try an alternate version. Don't even think about this one--just say it is done, as part of this experiment. BUT, go into BIAB and type in praise and worship and look at styles that have "power push" drums. Try just the 4/4 time signature, don't use this bridge, and give yourself 3:15 or 3:20 max. Only use your best lines. Don't do 2 verses to get to the chorus, get there fast, and limit it to V PC, C, x2 a new 4 bar bridge and Chorus out. In the pre chorus, start building the energy, so when you hit the Em (which is functioning like a V) we can really feel it. Make sure to hit the green button on the chord sheet in BIAB so we get a real dramatic chorus drum feel and uplift.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this version, but try a faster, "push" version that keeps the momentum driving hard, and does it in half the time.

Again, don't throw this one away, just experiment with a whole different take and see what you come up with, just for fun.

Also, when you are in the P&W section, check out the chord progressions in some of the demos.

You could simplify it a bit I think to make a version that has more sing along potential in the chorus.

If you are in BIAB, try going to edit menu (top of GUI), song form, and reduce duration of chords by one half. Try singing along with two chords per measure instead of one. I think you will have fun.

Does that make sense?

I am just suggesting this is an experiment if you feel like tinkering.

But again, there is some really nice stuff going on here. I love the idea.

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Originally Posted By: Cathie
Demo 8 really flows well!

Thanks! It does flow well, but I think it would flow a little better with a more gradual tempo increase into the bridge. So, I decided to try only increasing the tempo from 100 bpm to 104 bpm and to only increase it by 1 bpm every other measure instead of in four consecutive measures. Doing this resulted in a very similar slight tempo increase for the bridge but in such a slow, subtle way that no one would ever hear it unless I were to tell them.

However, that's not the only shortcoming I noticed with Demo #8. After listening to it numerous times, I realized that the fingerpicking guitars weren't audible enough because they were too close to the center. So, I tried moving them farther away from the center than BiaB's default setting of +40 and -40. This made a huge difference in the sound of both guitars and in the overall sound of the entire arrangement. As a result of this improvement, I created another demo video and uploaded it to my Youtube channel. You can listen to it at the following link:

Demo #9 https://youtu.be/02v4CWXcXzE

Quote:
Thank you for letting me be part of your process. As always, feel free to disregard the unsolicited advice which follows. **smile**

You're welcome, but I need to thank you for suggesting that I try triplets for the vocals in my bridge instead of a tempo and time signature change. Going through this process was a huge learning experience for me, so I really appreciate your input as well as everyone else's input on my song in this forum.

Quote:
In our society, the 3 minute song has become a convention. Going against that convention takes a pretty strong belief in one's song. I'm sharing a quote with you because I think it applies here. "...you should trust your instincts, and believe in yourself, as all the successful artists have had to do at some stage in their careers." Michael Eaton, 2016

Eternity is a marvelous contemplative meditational song, and I believe it has value at a slower tempo. . . . My question is this. Why not, given the strength of your BIAB arrangement, simply have your singer record it at your tempo and create a BIAB song with it? Why not release it as a single? Put it on Spotify, tag it Christian, tag it Jesus, maybe tag it meditation, talk it up with your friends, link it on Facebook or Instagram, see if you can get a lot of plays.

I agree with you 100%. Otherwise, I would have given in to my producer's recommendations a long time ago and wouldn't have even bothered to post my "Tempo change conundrum" question in this forum. I also wouldn't have decided that I intend to release my full-length BiaB arrangement version at some future date after I've released my album version but with a different vocalist who would be interested in singing his or her own "cover" version of this song.

Quote:
I've sped the youtube up to 125 bpm to see how your producer hears it, and it becomes upbeat rather than contemplative. There's a place for both in Christian music, but if you had to argue over it for four hours, it's obvious your producer doesn't really like the song.

I wouldn't say that he doesn't "like" it because he did tell me a few days ago that it's a good song. Instead, I'd say that he doesn't like it at the tempo of 100 bpm that I chose for the song because he thinks it's too slow and boring---especially because of how long the song is (6:25) due to the fact that it has three verses and a double chorus at the end. Second, he didn't like my Demo #5 version with the tempo change on the bridge or how the bridge ended with the instruments held before the tempo dropped back down again. Third, he didn't like the similarity between the chord resolution of each line of the verses to the chord resolution of each line of the verses in another song that will be on my album. Fourth, he said that it's just a conventional song that is comparable to hundreds if not thousands of other songs that have been written since the mid-40s. Furthermore, he said that no one writes songs like this anymore and that the only people who will like listening to this song are mostly old people who have a fond memory of similar songs from the past. Simply put, he said that this is a traditional song that needs to have a traditional length of around 4:00-4:30. This is another reason why he wants to increase the tempo to 120 bpm. However, he also wants to slow down the drums and the guitars so that the song doesn't sound rushed like it did when you increased my demo to 125 on Youtube. In fact, he created a one-verse demo of this song in his studio to demonstrate what he has in mind for this song. So, I decided to create a video version of his demo that I also uploaded to my Youtube channel so that I could share it with you and others on this forum. You can listen to it at the following link:

https://youtu.be/3X1cUktjLiM

Quote:
Now for a purely technical notation comment on the melody line to make the music easier for your singer to understand. At bar 87 where the triplets start, that should be all quarter notes like it was before. That's what Eleanor is singing (quarter note triplets) so far as I can tell. Bars 88, 90, and 92 should not be triplets at all, but a half note followed by a quarter rest and two even eighth notes--again, that's what Eleanor is singing. Bar 95 is just a half note. You're bouncing back and forth between swing and straight, and that's very good, part of the charm of the song--it's a really common jazz/swing convention that makes a melody flow in a lovely way.

I know that the notation on my lead sheet in the video of my demo isn't exactly correct because the triplets symbol over the measure is only supposed to be used for three quarter notes, but I had to do it this way for consistency sake and to save myself a lot of time that I would have spent switching back and forth between triplets mode and non-triplets mode. The only other way I could have made it clear how the lyrics are supposed to be sung was to change the tempo to 159 and the time signature to 3/4. This is what I did in Synthesizer V so that Eleanor would sing all the words the way they're supposed to be sung. Here's a link to a video I made of her doing this:

https://youtu.be/p1nd7GBKTiA

Quote:
If you do decide to shorten the song, you might consider removing a verse and a chorus to do so without changing the tempo; you could combine verses, since you have repeated lines that could be repurposed. I have longer songs myself and when I first started squeezing them down to meet the 3.5 minute standard it really hurt, felt totally wrong, but I learned to combine the verses and eliminate some time that way. I also experimented with changing the tempo by just 5 beats, reather than by 20 beats, to keep the easy flow of my songs but shave off time (you might not need the tempo increase at the bridge if you try this). Intros and outros can also be shaved down. The song itself is complete at the end of the chorus; your coda is lovely but to me the change in melody and lyrics took away from the feeling of completion. Again, this is unsolicited so feel free to disregard it; you might be better served by having one chorus at the end and only repeating the last line ("How I long for eternity") if you wish to shorten the song and keep the mood. Or you might to decide to keep the coda but only play one chorus.

Lots of options for shortening the song... but here's the thing, Tom. Your song has a specific purpose and you've crafted the lyrics and melody to fit that purpose. Like Mr. Eaton says, "at some point, you have to believe in yourself." Maybe the audience who will love your song is waiting on Spotify or even in a local church. You won't know until you release it.

I do believe in myself and I do believe in this song. Consequently, I plan to release multiple versions of it at different tempos and lengths. The version my producer will be creating for my album will be about 4:45 in length. I'm also thinking of following David Snyder's suggestion to create a version that is around 3:15-3:30 in length by only having two verses and only one chorus at the end. (I've already created a lead sheet of this version at 124 bpm.) Plus, today I realized that I could change three words in the first verse to make a male-female relationship version of this song in addition to the current version. So, I have lots of options, and I intend to explore them all and will continue this discussion for as long as necessary to accomplish this. Thanks for being a part of it.


Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V
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Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Hey Man,

I think there is some really cool stuff going on here.

As the leader of a songwriting organization's NC chapter, I have an idea:

I think you should try an alternate version. Don't even think about this one--just say it is done, as part of this experiment. BUT, go into BIAB and type in praise and worship and look at styles that have "power push" drums. Try just the 4/4 time signature, don't use this bridge, and give yourself 3:15 or 3:20 max. Only use your best lines. Don't do 2 verses to get to the chorus, get there fast, and limit it to V PC, C, x2 a new 4 bar bridge and Chorus out. In the pre chorus, start building the energy, so when you hit the Em (which is functioning like a V) we can really feel it. Make sure to hit the green button on the chord sheet in BIAB so we get a real dramatic chorus drum feel and uplift.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this version, but try a faster, "push" version that keeps the momentum driving hard, and does it in half the time.

Again, don't throw this one away, just experiment with a whole different take and see what you come up with, just for fun.

Also, when you are in the P&W section, check out the chord progressions in some of the demos.

You could simplify it a bit I think to make a version that has more sing along potential in the chorus.

If you are in BIAB, try going to edit menu (top of GUI), song form, and reduce duration of chords by one half. Try singing along with two chords per measure instead of one. I think you will have fun.

Does that make sense?

I am just suggesting this is an experiment if you feel like tinkering.

But again, there is some really nice stuff going on here. I love the idea.

Thanks for joining the discussion, David, and thanks for your suggestions. I don't fully understand what you're asking me to do because I've only been using BiaB since Jan. 2019, so I'm not a "power user" like you are. But I will tell you that I've already used MuseScore to create a new lead sheet of my song "Eternity" with only two verses and one final chorus (the short one) at 120 bpm and at 124 bpm. This reduced the total length of my song to around 3:30. I also increased the bridge tempo by 4 bpm and cut the intro in half in order to shave a few more seconds from the length. Now that I have a lead sheet "template" to use as my reference, I can delete all of the extra bars in BiaB so that it will match my lead sheet rather than starting over with a fresh XML file import. Once I do this, I can begin to experiment with P&W various styles, as you suggested. However, because I don't fully understand a few of your suggestions, perhaps you would be interested in tinkering with this song yourself in BiaB if I send you a copy of the SGU file and the vocal track. If you're interested, let me know. In the meantime, I'll start tinkering with it myself. Thanks again!


Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 266
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Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Hey Man,

I think there is some really cool stuff going on here.

As the leader of a songwriting organization's NC chapter, I have an idea:

I think you should try an alternate version. Don't even think about this one--just say it is done, as part of this experiment. BUT, go into BIAB and type in praise and worship and look at styles that have "power push" drums. Try just the 4/4 time signature, don't use this bridge, and give yourself 3:15 or 3:20 max. Only use your best lines. Don't do 2 verses to get to the chorus, get there fast, and limit it to V PC, C, x2 a new 4 bar bridge and Chorus out. In the pre chorus, start building the energy, so when you hit the Em (which is functioning like a V) we can really feel it. Make sure to hit the green button on the chord sheet in BIAB so we get a real dramatic chorus drum feel and uplift.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this version, but try a faster, "push" version that keeps the momentum driving hard, and does it in half the time.

Again, don't throw this one away, just experiment with a whole different take and see what you come up with, just for fun.

Also, when you are in the P&W section, check out the chord progressions in some of the demos.

You could simplify it a bit I think to make a version that has more sing along potential in the chorus.

If you are in BIAB, try going to edit menu (top of GUI), song form, and reduce duration of chords by one half. Try singing along with two chords per measure instead of one. I think you will have fun.

Does that make sense?

I am just suggesting this is an experiment if you feel like tinkering.

But again, there is some really nice stuff going on here. I love the idea.

David, to start off my second reply to your comment, I want to thank you for the suggestion you gave me to shorten my song by cutting out some of the sections and rewriting the bridge (so that it's 4 bars instead of 8) and to try out some of the P&W styles with "power push" drums on this shorter version in order to create an alternate version of my song because I was able to accomplish nearly all of these things over the last few days and have a new short "rock version" demo to share with you and others here. But first I want to say that, before I saw your comment last week, I had concluded that I was essentially finished with the "country folk" version of this song when I created my 9th demo---until a few days later when I started to make some changes to the chords in the chorus that my producer had recommended to me in a session the previous week when he had agreed to produce this song for my album. Prior to that, I had not even considered the possibility that the chords in the chorus may need to be refined because my focus with this song has been exclusively on finding the best way to make the melody and lyrics in the bridge sound their best in relation to the melody and lyrics in the rest of the song.

So, when I discovered that the chord changes my producer had recommended for the chorus were having an adverse effect on the mood and feel of the song when I listened to them in addition to what the increased tempo of 120 bpm had done, I was compelled to ask him if those chord changes were really necessary. This resulted in us having another two-hour "wrangling" session that concluded with him agreeing to keep my chords mostly intact for the first chorus and to only make some chord changes in the second chorus. However, the last chorus in his arrangement will have all of the chord changes that he recommended. Plus, depending on how his arrangement turns out, he still has the option to make the same changes to the second chorus and even the first chorus. Unfortunately, when I tried this past weekend to make gradual chord changes to the choruses in my 100 bpm demo versions that I've been sharing here and elsewhere, I still wasn't pleased with the results. So, now I'm trying to figure out an alternative solution that will work my original demo version.

But getting back to the suggestions you made in your comment above, I wasn't able to find a single P&W style with or without "power push" drums that appealed to me when I tested them on this song after I cut out the sections you mentioned, changed the tempo to 120 bpm, and wrote a new melody and lyrics for the bridge that was as close to 4 bars as possible. So, I decided to sample ALL of the ballad, country, folk, light pop, and medium rock styles to see if any of those would be suitable instead and that would accomplish the objectives that you mentioned. The only style I found that immediately caught my attention because of how well it meshed with this song is the one described as "Pushy Ac Bass Medium Pop Push." I should mention that my producer's chord recommendations also worked really well on this song with this particular style. However, I don't think I was able to create the "energy building" effect within BiaB that you had in mind for the "pre-chorus" transition, which you said required the green button in the chord sheet---aka, "part marker"---because I had already set this up in my previous demos. What I was able to do, though, is use post-processing on some of the tracks in a DAW to create an "energy build-up" transition from the second chorus into the bridge. To me, this makes more sense than the one you suggested because of the 4-bar transition that exists between the second chorus and the bridge vs. the 1-bar or 2-bar transitions that exist between each verse and the subsequent chorus.

Lastly, I should tell you that the only way I could reduce the length of this song to your max target length of 3:15 is by cutting the 4-bar intro, increasing the tempo to 124, and shortening the fade at the end of the song. But because none of these changes will do this song any justice, IMO, I decided to stick with what I have even though the total length is 3:30 instead of 3:15. I think you'll agree when you listen to the demo, which can be done at the following link:

https://youtu.be/Gjo52QrT9XA


Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V
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Quote:
Lastly, I should tell you that the only way I could reduce the length of this song to your max target length of 3:15 is by cutting the 4-bar intro, increasing the tempo to 124, and shortening the fade at the end of the song. But because none of these changes will do this song any justice, IMO, I decided to stick with what I have even though the total length is 3:30 instead of 3:15. I think you'll agree when you listen to the demo, which can be done at the following link:

https://youtu.be/Gjo52QrT9XA


I like this version. The bridge is a bit shall we say different and could probably be dropped totally or rework the chords. It resolved back into the song nicely but the bridge felt like it wasn't a part of the song overall.

David gave you good advice on the song.


You can find my music at:
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