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#661224 - 06/21/21 06:24 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 7544
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Well, I said was "What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly."

And we got to "Clear as a bell."

We almost made it! We have clear sound playing but not when the song is rendered.

I reviewed all the posts in this thread last night focusing on any remarks addressing the noise.

With that said, what's next?

Time and money will eventually fix your PC and get it to play nicely with BIAB/RB. With the information you've provided me, I can tell you ways to possibly bypass the noise issue with rendering BIAB you presently have but nothing I say will fix the problem or actually address it in any way. It should bypass the noise and allow you to record clear audio tracks and mixes.

Try this first.
Open and load a song into BIAB
Play it to ensure it's playing cleanly
Open Audacity and set the input to record Stereo Mix
Play the BIAB song and check that Audacity is monitoring the sound
Press record in Audacity to begin recording
Press play to start the BIAB song

This should record clean audio. It records in real time but you can record either individual tracks, a mix or both according to your needs.



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Edited by Charlie Fogle (06/21/21 06:47 AM)
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#661239 - 06/21/21 08:10 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Well, I said was "What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly."

And we got to "Clear as a bell."

We almost made it! We have clear sound playing but not when the song is rendered.

......................



Charlie, are we sure about this? According to Cathie's last post there was distortion while just playing in BiaB:

"**headdesk** I have a simple blues progression up, switched to =POPPLTS.STY the pop solo piano... static. It's just playing in BIAB, and distorted like a fuzzy guitar would be. Gonna shut BIAB down and restart it....

Okay, much less static this time, but not clean like I remember it. **sigh**

2263 Acoustic Piano is pretty clean, and it saved as a WAV pretty clean. _MPBBP.STY, 80s Medium Pop The style rendered as an MP3 with a low background level of noise, almost clean.

1542, Acoustic Piano, no noise in BIAB. _ALTCAMP.STY Absolutely clean in BIAB, rendered clean as a WAV, style rendered clean as an MP3!!!!"


I'm beginning to wonder if she either has a gain stage problem, although it is weird that it is intermittent, like you indicated a defective computer, inadvertent effects being added, or a virus that is messing things up?

An after thought, I wonder if her speakers, speaker cables, or the speaker jack is going bad?

Cathie, if you are reading this try unplugging and plugging in your speaker cables a couple of times. Does this correct the problem?
_________________________
The most expensive vehicle to operate, by far, is a grocery shopping cart!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware

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#661282 - 06/21/21 11:28 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 7544
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 7544
Loc: South Carolina
<< Charlie, are we sure about this? >>

No. But - "Clear as a bell" came from Cathie in response to me asking if BIAB playback was clear or noisy.

I'm attempting to help her locate a tap point to capture clear BIAB audio output. Once that is accomplished, she has all of the tools and knowledge to bypass all of the other issues, learning curves, additional equipment/interfaces and such and be able to make some music as she continues getting the hardware and software issues worked out.

Once she has access to clear audio output of BIAB tracks and mixes, if she wants to, she can reverse her current path of trying to record into the PC and instead use her hardware zoom recorder for recording her keyboard and vocals mixed with BIAB tracks and finish her mix in Audacity where she's familiar with the workflow and isn't having noise creation issues.

That's a much more intuitive and straightforward workflow than she's facing with in the box PC. Consider this. She purchased a 2012 year model Zoom in 2014 and it's still going strong. She understands it's functionality and workflow. I suggest that's a better starting point than what she's facing transitioning to in the box PC recording.
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#661311 - 06/21/21 02:10 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
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Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Oh my gosh Charlie!! Don't give me so much credit. I don't know anything more about the Zoom H1 and Audacity than I do about BIAB, honest. At this point I can do more in BIAB. I've certainly studied it more.

Woke up with a good feeling today, and so I went back to my song, turned off the reverb on the piano and violins (it was left over from the lower-quality patches; HQ patches don't need it, lesson learned), turned the volume down on almost everything, worked on the arrangement some--have NO idea why the rests don't take on the loop; the track's not frozen--but anyway, I just rendered the MP3 and the noise is almost completely gone!!! I didn't even get as far as unplugging the speakers like Mario suggested! And I think maybe what I pick up as low-level noise in this new MP3 might be just a natural piano sound. It's NOTHING like yesterday; zero static! Zero distortion!

Ended up subbing piano 890 in the RT, and not only is the sound lovely and clean, the style fits my song way better, so that's a bonus--I'm thinking about oldmuso and his "golden nuggets" in styles you just don't expect.

Mario, I could very well have a defective computer, although it's brand new so that would be truly frustrating. What I'm thinking now is that maybe I'm just so inexperienced at mixing that I inadvertently set myself up for noise from the interactions among volume, patches, and reverb. It still doesn't sound clean to me, doesn't sound professional to me--but it has a great beat and it makes me dance in my chair.

What I don't know is how to get it so y'all can listen to it. I tried Soundcloud but the private link wouldn't share. Oh well. One thing at a time, right?
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#661343 - 06/21/21 03:51 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
Cathie, you turned down the volumes and it rendered with less noise? I wonder if you have a gain stage problem; that is the volume of BiaB's output overwhelms your RealTek volume. So try this turn, your Realtek volumes up to 95% and keep your BiaB volumes low. Let us know if that helps or eliminates the problem.

{edit} It still could be a bad speaker cable, a bad speaker jack, or a bad connection. You still might want to try plugging and unplugging the speaker jack an number of times if the above doesn't work.


Edited by MarioD (06/21/21 03:53 PM)
_________________________
The most expensive vehicle to operate, by far, is a grocery shopping cart!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware

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#661380 - 06/21/21 07:39 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
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Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Great blue dragons, it is a flaming good thing I finally got that MP3 to render because I'm suddenly back to the beginning with BIAB. I cannot choose MIDI patches for the utility tracks and even previously chosen MIDI patches--like the guitar, bass, and two violins in my song--won't play with any voice but "1 Acoustic Piano" which is not even the good piano voice. I unplugged the hard drive and then plugged it back in again (twice!) but it wouldn't change back. I went to my other songs: same problem. So I started a new song, chose the electric jazz guitar patch for a utility track, and wrote it a short MIDI melody. BIAB assigned it to "1 Acoustic Piano" (at a very low volume, so that the style drowns it out even though it's set to 90 like everything else) and refuses to change it. **headdesk**

All that "operator error" benefit of the doubt? No. This is nothing I did, although it might be something Build 835 did. Me, I just think there's a troll living in my copy of BIAB.

Mario, you're probably right about the gain stage problem. BIAB periodically messes with my speakers--so SORRY that I got Bluetooth, sheesh--and it was blaring pretty loudly when I didn't expect it to after I updated to 835. When the troll is vanquished and the MIDI returns, I'll try the different things you and Charlie have mentioned to see if I can get this computer to do proper sound. But for tonight, I am taking my headachy self off to do other things.
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#661404 - 06/22/21 03:54 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 2042
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 2042
Cathie...
its very important to let the rest of us know your set up in detail.
1. bluetooth. this is new info.
i personally dont use it. whether this is giving you probs i dont know. only way to know is to run tests with a non bluetooth wired set up. ie directly wiring from your pc audio output to the logitech stereo line input assuming logitech has a line input ?
then play some audio in win media player and see if everythings nice and clean OR if your pc has a cd/dvd player.
(some dont now..so use a song on a usb drive.)
insert a cd and see how that sounds as a test.
post your logitech model number so people can advise further.
and see whether your logitech has a wired option.
2. losing your settings when coming back to biab after a break.
how are you saveing your biab songs ? what function are you useing to save in biab ? if your settings are all out of whack when you come back try biab "saveing with patches" option.
3. other matters. IMPORTANT .
when you have time i would read carefully the sections of the biab and realband manuals dealing with setting up drivers. because at some point this info will be needed if you decide to either test the zoom as a audio device OR use what most recording rigs use ie ..
a usb low latency audio interface instead of the realtek.
also lots of vids on you tube and various manufacturers web sites bout this topic.

every happiness. and just have fun with it all.
best
oldmuso
CATHIE AN IMPORTANT NOTE.
IF YOU CHANGE VOLUME ON AN INSTRUMENT AND IT DOESNT TAKE AND REVERTS BACK...THIS IS AN EMBEDDED MIDI COMMAND.
read up on the event editor and how to use it.



Edited by justanoldmuso (06/22/21 03:59 AM)
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MY CRAZY SONGS....done with above.

https://soundcloud.com/user-302791555/tracks

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#661416 - 06/22/21 05:38 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18384
Loc: Hamlin NY
Cathie, you are not the only one having bluetooth problems:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/very-distorted-sound-from-bluetooth-headset-on/7ab797a8-cd88-40b2-befd-4be764285a6c

Maybe this will help:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10/

As the oldmuso indicated we now need to know everything about your system. Things like computer name, model, amount of ram, all of your peripherals, etc.


Edited by MarioD (06/22/21 05:38 AM)
_________________________
The most expensive vehicle to operate, by far, is a grocery shopping cart!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware

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#661499 - 06/22/21 04:09 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
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Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Thank you oldmuso and Mario. I appreciate your help.

Yes, this computer has a DVD drive, also a wireless mouse, and I suppose it came with a webcam (haven't ever bothered with it). The speakers have a line in but they only work if the bluetooth controller is turned on. Bought them for the subwoofer, not the bluetooth--haven't ever had that before, don't think I'll bother with it again. It's an HP--again, not going to bother with it ever again--so I can't even FIND the RealTek driver to do an uninstall/reinstall (it isn't in the control panel where it's supposed to be). Must be buried somewhere in the HP sound package. And BIAB is on a harddrive.

Since I didn't have this trouble with Utility Tracks with Build 833, I'm thinking I need tech support. Got to be some setting somewhere that got switched off in the update.

Took a memory and cognition test today at the doc; the good news is that I actually don't have dementia, which surprises me no end. The very bad news is that I have so much skyrocketing stress in my life that it made me think I have pretty severe dementia if not Alzheimer's. Been told to find things to do which let me escape the stress. That is definitely not BIAB or the computer today. Maybe I'll go cry into my keyboard, so to speak... yikes, the idea of saltwater escaping into the keys of an electronic instrument makes me shudder!! **laughing at myself** Okay, maybe I'll finish the Bad Luck Song, which has languished for six years because I was afraid of invoking it... er, well... **gives BIAB the side eye** maybe not!

I'll come back tomorrow, reread your posts, and try again. Hope y'all have a peaceful evening (or morning if you're on another continent). Thank you so very much for not giving up on me. I really appreciate everyone here.
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#662746 - 07/02/21 05:11 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
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Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Hi everyone, checking in with an update. I've continued to track down the problems I've mentioned here. The static has been isolated to my speakers, and they seem to have the power to corrupt even commercial CDs, yikes!! But luckily the problem is solved with headphones, so I know that replacing the speakers will solve that component. Unfortunately we've so far been unable to solve whatever on earth is wrong with my Utility Tracks and I'm waiting for a return email from the support department.

Being unable to use the Utility Tracks properly makes it pretty hard to work on my music in BIAB, although it is kind of fun writing MIDI notation in my test song as I work out the parameters of the problem, and it does give me practice in writing in the editable notation window. Kinda wish there was a score window (not piano roll, but like sheet music) so I could write multiple parts at once, but hey, that's what MuseScore is for.

I have to say that I don't feel near so incompetent now that I know this inability to complete a song is actually a software glitch and not operator error. I shared that one MP3 rendering I managed to make (before the problems got started), and my friend was amazed at "the lush sound." She loved it, which thrilled me--isn't it the best feeling when someone loves your song?

Once we get my Utility Tracks working properly again I'll go back to it and get the song finished, then move on to the next one. Thank you for all the help you've offered. The questions y'all have asked me have helped me to understand how to track down these problems. It's definitely affecting the Melody, Soloist, and Utility Tracks--anywhere I try to use MIDI, either imported or written directly into the notation window. Interestingly, it also won't let me edit any BIAB MIDI tracks--pretty sure I've seen tutorials where a MIDI style got edited. So anyhow, we'll see what happens next week, and in the meantime I wish you all well. May your weekend be filled with happiness and music!! **smiling**
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#662754 - 07/02/21 06:36 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9304
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9304
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
You may be thinking about the "StyleMaker". You can use the StyleMaker to create a new MIDI style or edit an existing MIDI style.

You open the StyleMaker by going to File > StyleMaker and make a selection from the StleMaker pop up window. You can use keystrokes Alt + F9 to open the StyleMaker and select a style to edit or Ctrl + Shift + F9 to open StyleMaker and edit the current style.

Press F1 to open the Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) Help file and enter the term StyleMaker in the search tab. You will find a bunch of tutorials about using the StyleMaker.

One thing to remember; as far as I know the StyleMaker only works with MIDI, not audio. The MIDI transcriptions available in most RealTracks can not be permanently altered with the StyleMaker.


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Jim Fogle - 2023 BiaB (1006) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#662904 - 07/04/21 08:35 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
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Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
You may be thinking about the "StyleMaker". You can use the StyleMaker to create a new MIDI style or edit an existing MIDI style.

Thank you, Jim. That's not something I've explored before. Didn't think a MIDI only style would have associated RT but maybe this one does, because BIAB offered to substitute RT for it. I just thought that was a standard dialogue for all MIDI styles. Still have so much to learn!
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#662979 - 07/05/21 12:12 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9304
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9304
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Open Preferences (Ctrl+E) and select the RealTracks button. There is a setting to replace MIDI styles with RealTrack styles.

Select the RealDrums button and you'll find there is a setting to replace MIDI drums with RealDrums.


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_________________________
Jim Fogle - 2023 BiaB (1006) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#663012 - 07/05/21 08:55 PM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Cathie Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/07/21
Posts: 125
Loc: Wichita KS USA
Good to know where to turn that off!!

I'm missing working with BIAB right now. Be so glad when I can get back to it!
_________________________
Love is always worth the risk.

HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.

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#664034 - 07/13/21 10:44 AM [Songwriting] Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? [Re: Cathie]
Registered: 06/14/19
Posts: 139
Loc: Windsor, Ontario
Marty Ricciotti Offline
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Registered: 06/14/19
Posts: 139
Loc: Windsor, Ontario
This is a wonderful read. Lots of tips. I'm going to have to read to a few more times

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