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Mike Halloran.
re "cheapware" and no phone support comments.
i feel i must comment in reply about reaper and its superb capabilities that have served me well for around 14 years now.
other users like pipeline can verify my comments.
...
all the best to you.
oldmuso.
I stand by my opinions of both. Time=$$$ and I make my living doing music online and collaborating with about 40 others in the process. I don't care who else uses them. I download from time to time but they offer nothing to me. if they did, I'd jump in a second. I do find it amusing that the fanboys mention both at every opportunity and some can't do so without ++ links in every post ++ as if there's something to be proved by this — I think that's silly. Those who use ProTools, DP, Logic, Cubase Pro, FL Studio, BitWing and other pro DAWs tend not to do that. Use whatever gets the job done and if the freeware and cheapware do it, I'm ok with that. I don't understand why you and others feel threatened when I say that pro studios tend to use professional tools. I'm certainly not threatened by what you use. The object here is to make music. I'm doing fine and I hope you are, too.
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Mike.
let me reply.
1. i dont feel threatened when people say "professional tools".
in fact i have high respect for the big recording studios of yore that produced decades of great hits/music.
its also sad that so many that produced those fantastic hits have gone out of business.
(in ways due to the project studio and tech.)
its also sad that so much recording engineering talent has been lost or retired etc etc. the same goes for session musician/songwriting talent.
talent which i lament that i just dont hear in lots of top 50 charting songs today. ok maybe the occasional song i like. but thats about it. i rarely hear song hooks that grab me today. like china grove or mercury blues or heartbreaker or panama.
2. let me be clear. although ive been round the recording block more than a few times ; i'm not inferring i'm any great talent/recording or mixdown engineer/or post or mastering engineer/or songwriter etc etc.
the only reason ive done slews of songs in my life is because its in my creative soul at my core.
like an itch that is always bugging me to write a song lol.
ive certainly no desire to be "big" because i like to lead a very peacefull creative life with my lovely wife.
maybe my songs are junk. i dunno. but creating them is loads of fun.
3. mike ive used everything to do songs. from grrreat gear in big studios down to total junk gear. from 24 trak classic 2 inch multitraks and massive consoles down to 10 doillar mics.
the only reason i'm a "fanboy" as you say of reaper is it just works for me day in/out. in fact thinking about it in 14 years of use i dont think ive had one crash (i'm thinking hard. maybe a bad plug in once.)
that is jolly good in my book.
also let me say reaps was one of the first daw's that incorporated certain features before some of the major names if i remember. i think pdc being one feature.
4. if i'm so wrong about reaps mike why have so many people (includeing many "pros") moved to it from other daws ?
if you want to spend a hilarious sunday afternoon some time. read up on gearspace.com (formerly gearslutz) as well as other recording forums and the web , and type in the following....
"reaper versus xxxxxxx" where xxxxxxxx is another daw name.
talking of "pros" then type in "tafkat dawbench xxxxxxx" where xxxxxxx is the competitor daw name. if you read those dawbench reports youll see that reaps is often cited as the performance standard against which other daws are measured in very in depth testing.
also reapers extensive features and tools have been extensively documented in such publications as sound on sound.
eg reaps native plug ins and various tricks.
and thats all i'll say.
i wish you too happy times creating.
best.
oldmuso.
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thanks for this exposition, so Audacity it a great software, I can look at it again and make other recommendations. Always look at it if interested—or don't if you're not. As to making your own recommendations, do it if you feel like that would help others. If you haven't actually looked at it then you are not helping anyone by parroting the fanboy hype.
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Everyone has their personal preferences and specific needs. I use Audacity for almost every song I post. I find it does everything I need it to. And I am using using Audacity 3.0. But have used the previous versions prior to the 3.0 release a short while back. Perhaps my needs are considerably less demanding than most of you. But I am very pleased with it. Below is a song I recorded a few days ago using nothing but BIAB 2021 (Windows version). I sent the tracks directly from the BIAB chord input sheet to Audacity 3.0. After working the tracks over a bit in Audacity, I posted to Soundcloud and used their mastering software (it's an upgrade option at SoundCloud). I am very happy with the results. My wife is the vocalist. The backing tracks have been "touched" by nothing but the BIAB chord input sheet (no RB), Audacity and the Soundcloud mastering option. I think it came out really nice. The vocal was recorded through an AT2035 condenser mic into a Peavey Nashville 112 Guitar amp. I use the Peavey amp in lieu of a mixing board because I prefer the sound "color" it gives our vocals. I use the headphone-out of the amp and plug it straight into my desktop's mic-in port and record the vocals directly into Audacity and then adjust the vocal in Audacity. I then blend the vocals with the BIAB tracks already loaded into Audacity. I then send to a premade desktop folder as both a WAV file and a high bit rate MP3. I then upload to Soundcloud when I want to. Audacity is the closest thing I use to a DAW. But, again, perhaps my needs are far lesser than those of other folks. But, I do like the final sound I get using Audacity. So far, we've had 28 songs picked up for one opportunity or another using this very method. Not a single one of them went through a traditional DAW. No matter your needs, preferences, and wants, good luck to everyone with their music. Alan If you're interested, here's the link to our latest song (it's a 1960s era Bossa Nova): https://soundcloud.com/alananddi/you-remixHi Al. I'd like to use the highlighted comments I've made from your post to foster some deeper discussion into Audacity and BIAB. I have Audacity 2.4.2 and it's sufficient to meet my meager needs for capturing and editing audio. I currently have Studio One Pro and Cakewalk available along with RealBand if I'm in need of a DAW. I also have three stand-alone, hard disk digital recorders that each have proprietary DAW firmware and digital effects. However, with BIAB projects, I rarely have need to use any of these to complete a song project and find it faster, easier and quite beneficial to stay totally in BIAB. Three tools permit me to create complex and complete songs in just BIAB. They have been included in the program for many years, roughly since 2014 as far as I can determine. Although they're longtime features of the program, other than myself I've never seen a song posted that was created with this triple combination of tools. I'd like to introduce you folks to these tools since it's my experience that BIAB offers more versatility and retains all of the unique and exclusive capabilities of the BIAB program that are lost when BIAB files are exported to Audacity or another DAW. RealBand has much of BIAB's capabilities but not all. It's also a faster workflow not to have to open a song project in RB and frozen tracks can be maintained rather than regenerated by staying in BIAB rather than moving to RB. The first tool and most pertinent to this conversation is the BIAB Audio Editor. I'd like you to share a bit more with us what you mean when you say you "work over the tracks a bit in Audacity". I've found that I can do all of the basic editing and more using the BIAB Audio Editor than I can in Audacity or any of my DAW's. The BIAB Audio Editor is very robust and is on par with my most advanced stand-alone digital recorder's built-in complete proprietary DAW. I'm interested to learn what you may be doing in Audacity that can't be done in BIAB's Audio Editor. If any interest is raised in this conversation, I'll be glad to share some specific and unique results that can be accessed because an audio track is still in BIAB and hasn't been exported to a DAW. The second tool is the Performance Track. The Performance Track allows any sound media recognized by BIAB such as RealTracks, RealDrums, WAV/WMA/MP3/MP4 audio, MIDI, SuperMidi, HI-Q Midi, Loops or any combination of these media to be converted to audio for editing on the Audio Channel and then converted so that the edited audio can reside on any of the other BIAB Mixer Legacy Tracks. (Bass, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, Melody and Soloist). With their introduction this year, the 16 new Utility Tracks are now also included. The third tool is the RealTrack Medley Feature. The Medley Feature provides a 10 channel, RealTrack sub-mixer to each of the seven BIAB Mixer's Legacy Channels. This feature allows the user to have over 70 total RealTrack instruments in a single render of a BIAB song. Combined with Performance Tracks mix capabilities, the total can run into the hundreds. With the addition of Utility Tracks, the total is literally in the thousands. Don't let these remarkable numbers throw you off. The reality is this capability is another way of saying BIAB functions as a multi track digital recorder or DAW. Many DAWs can have an unlimited track count and are only limited by the PC CPU power. In BIAB, tracks are not limited to 8 which has been a myth since 2014. As I said, I'm interested to compare and challenge BIAB against Audacity and see if BIAB can meet the challenge. It's a solid bet for me because I've yet to find a situation in my workflow where it's not up to the task but I've never seen it used by someone else and their workflow in Audacity, Reaper or other DAW's including RealBand. I hope there's some interest, questions and comments. EDIT: I forgot to mention your song. It's great. A wonderful performance by Mrs. Di and you did an fantastic re-mix. Enjoyed it.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 06/23/21 05:58 PM.
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Charlie
thanks for mention of creating a BIAB project using the BIAB Audio Editor, Performance Track RealTrack Medley Feature
i'm going to research these topics using the online manual and whatever videos i can find
i'm probably have ?s after the research
may i suggest you create a Udemy course detailing your workflow from idea to completed song
thanks for all the help you provide via these forums
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casio wk-7500
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Charlie
thanks for mention of creating a BIAB project using the BIAB Audio Editor, Performance Track RealTrack Medley Feature
i'm going to research these topics using the online manual and whatever videos i can find
i'm probably have ?s after the research
may i suggest you create a Udemy course detailing your workflow from idea to completed song
thanks for all the help you provide via these forums
Thanks for commenting. It's likely a bit soon to consider a Udemy course but I appreciate the suggestion. The Audio Editor will be familiar to anyone familiar with Audacity or a hardware, stand-alone digital multitrack recorder like the Tascam DP-24 or Zoom R-24. There is one 'surprise' hidden in the Audio Editor that most don't know is there. If interest is shown and some discussion evolves, this would be a good candidate for a PG Music tutorial video.
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Since the Audacity 3 release, the company has been bought by Muse Group, overseen by Martin Keary, the new head of design at MuseScore. This should be very good news. Mr. Keary has been an outspoken critic of stupid things that Audacity and MuseScore do so poorly. Perhaps with him at the helm, both might finally become good. The current plan is for both to remain free — or free-ish as MuseScore is currently. We'll see. Tantacrul: I am now in charge of Audacity
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Mike, Thanks for sharing the video link. It was great to meet some of the developers behind Audacity.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Alan, Here's an Audacity story. I had a neighbor down the street who went to NC State to study chemical engineering. He was/is a jazz genius in addition to being a chemical engineer. A killer keyboard player and a great kid. We jammed all the time. On weekends when he didn't have anything to do, he might tear his car down in the front yard, replace his brake pads for fun and put it all back together in just a few hours before doing his homework. That kind of kid. He recorded a perfect facsimile cover version of Toto's Africa playing all the instruments and singing all the parts using Audacity 2 and a simple Radio Shack style mixer. It sounded just like Toto. Then Toto played Raleigh. Somehow, my buddy bumped into Steve Lukather after the show and asked if he could play the cover on his iPhone for him and Lukather said sure. Apparently, Lukather said afterwards: "Dude, that is the most awesome cover of my song that I have ever heard. Where did you record that?" "In my bedroom. On Audacity." "Who's playing?" "It's all me." "Singing?" "Me." They bonded. I am sure there is a lesson to be learned there somewhere. Maybe Pat Metheny said it best: "Man, I don't know about you, but me, I'm all about listening to people who know how to play." 
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I am sure there is a lesson to be learned there somewhere. Ok, I'll bite. What lesson? Any DAW or stand-alone multitrack or even the original PortaStudio (1979) or a TEAC 3340S (1972) could have made that possible.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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I am sure there is a lesson to be learned there somewhere. Ok, I'll bite. What lesson? Any DAW or stand-alone multitrack or even the original PortaStudio (1979) or a TEAC 3340S (1972) could have made that possible. I think that was the lesson. It is not the tool but the person using the tool. As you pointed out great music can be recorded using many different tools such as Audacity, any DAW, stand-alone multitrack, Reel to Reel, etc. If I'm wrong then someone can correct me.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Though I have Presonus Studio One and love it, there are somethings that are just much more easier in Audacity.
...Deb
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Mario, you are a sage my friend. A true prophet. Getting very warm there. I would love to hear what others say about the "lesson." Of all the recording devices mentioned (or any tool for that matter), the one feature that none of them can possibly provide, which the leader of Toto immediately recognized was: [____________________________________________] Fill in the blank here.
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Though I have Presonus Studio One and love it, there are somethings that are just much more easier in Audacity.
...Deb and almost everything else is not. The day that it supports MIDI input, I might be able to change my mind. Ok, a multitrack tape recorder doesn't either but that's not a DAW and Audacity claims to be one. And before someone rushes to tell me why I'm mistaken, you can't use a MIDI keyboard directly within Audacity as the app does not have the ability to record or write MIDI files nor communicate with a MIDI keyboard. The ability to import/export MIDI files aka Note Tracks is not the same as direct MIDI support. Note Tracks as of April 13 2021
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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................... The day that it supports MIDI input, I might be able to change my mind. Ok, a multitrack tape recorder doesn't either but that's not a DAW and Audacity claims to be one. And before someone rushes to tell me why I'm mistaken, you can't use a MIDI keyboard directly within Audacity as the app does not have the ability to record or write MIDI files nor communicate with a MIDI keyboard. The ability to import/export MIDI files aka Note Tracks is not the same as direct MIDI support. Note Tracks as of April 13 2021 You are correct, but there are also a number of things that Audacity can't do that a DAW can. This is from a google/bing search: By strict definition, Audacity is a DAW (digital audio workstation) as it is audio software capable of recording, editing and producing audio files. However, due to its basic features, it is better described as a simple audio editor, lacking the functionality of more advanced DAW software.This is from Audacity's opening page: Audacity is an easy-to-use, multi-track audio editor and recorder for Windows, macOS, GNU/Linux and other operating systems.
Developed by a group of volunteers as open source.So if going by strict definitions then BiaB is a notation program. We all know that it is not but because it has limited notation functions it could be called a notation program, at least this is what the "experts" say. I agree with you that in reality Audacity is not a DAW, regardless of what the experts call a DAW. {edit} but it is a useful tool to have in your tool box.
Last edited by MarioD; 06/27/21 10:30 AM.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Mario, you are a sage my friend. A true prophet. Getting very warm there. I would love to hear what others say about the "lesson." Of all the recording devices mentioned (or any tool for that matter), the one feature that none of them can possibly provide, which the leader of Toto immediately recognized was: [____________________________________________] Fill in the blank here. Talent
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Ouch, that water is hot Jim!
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"...the freeware and cheapware...fanboy..."
Don't forget that Reaper can be both free or cheap so perhaps it's wine in a box sniffing
rather than cork sniffing.
BUT if you really have that slant shouldn't you be bagging BIAB too? Oh, that's right, it's expensive.
Mike,
You've probably have some serious/significant skill and talent with a DAW but, personally, I don't take advice from folk who don't display their wares. I need to weigh the evidence with the testimony.
Those I was collaborating with at the time demonstrated Reaper's value when used by someone experienced with it. I have modest means but, after using Reaper for three months, paid for it as it demonstrated it's value for my purposes.
I used Audacity to teach recording to 12 year olds...it worked a treat within that circumstance as children aren't afraid to experiment/try/hit the button whereas I'm a little too old for that.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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rayc.
much as i love reaps too i also think that pg's own powertraks is a superb deal also at 50 bucks.
ive lost count the number of times that bars view in powertraks rescued a session to fix up things ages ago.
(bars view isnt known by lots of people and tricks one can do with it !)
chock full of features includeing some really deep great midi features i used to like to show to people in days of yore that had spent loads of money on recording software
that didnt have some of the deep midi features of powertraks.
i started on powertraks , imho a superb product thats got better and better over the years.
in summary ..yes there are bad cheap products in the world BUT there are also excellent cheap products as well.
and powertraks and reaps are two great products imho.
my call is neither reaps nor powertraks are going away anytime soon and will continue getting better and better.
(psst pg LOL LOL powertraks on raspberry pi !)
best
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 06/28/21 01:46 AM.
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"...the freeware and cheapware...fanboy..."
Don't forget that Reaper can be both free or cheap so perhaps it's wine in a box sniffing
rather than cork sniffing.
BUT if you really have that slant shouldn't you be bagging BIAB too? Oh, that's right, it's expensive.
Mike,
You've probably have some serious/significant skill and talent with a DAW but, personally, I don't take advice from folk who don't display their wares. I need to weigh the evidence with the testimony.
Could you ask that in English please? My signature displays my hardware and the apps I use. What are you missing? I am quite upfront that what I use saves me time. I bill for my time and the apps I use save me money. Audacity, Reaper and MuseScore (and Dorico, Overture, Notion, Encore — all of which I have licenses for as well) do not. Why do I have to explain to you?
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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