PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Biab 2021

Just cancelled my cross grade to 2021 mac version , I hope by now i can give a a view to my honest opinion without being shot down (I'm ducking anyway ).

I know utility tracks etc . have been added and so on !. but sorry its the same old , same old styles patterns !

We have had year on and year on , its not getting the even modern basics for song writers !, its a brilliant programme .as in what we can do ...enter chords and the musicians play them Wow ! . But that was back then and this is now .

Believe me this is no way a negative post, this is a constructive one !!.

Listen really listen to the new real tracks and styles , Brilliant for Americana, country etc.

I posted a song using my midi keyboard and my Roland Bk 7 m module !! a few comments i got where ...ah ! they copy styles of songs?artist etc for live gigging ?. Even from a PG Music staff !!. so does PG music for heavens sake if your an america/ country writer Yea all good !!.

A don't think the age group on the users of Biab is an Issue , i believe its stuck in its core as in when it was produced / commercialiased to a software programme .

I hear great work on the user showcase forum , Brilliant stuff , but I'm sorry i listen and every time i go Wow !! be brilliant if the chorus section had more of an uplifting effect than what it has at the moment !.



Just my tuppence worth as they say here in my Homeland , 2021 was not good at all to me !!.

Again please respect my opinion !! as i have felt this for a long time ! . I see posts of many songs and most time i listen and hear the same old guitar bass and drum styles etc > .aAnd wonderful performances as in the vocals the lyrics and i honestly i know the song is much better if only !!.


Again please respect my opinion ! .

I will piggyback on this, though what I am about to add probably belongs in the Wish List area, but it's time to get some new players to do the real tracks. I don't know how well the artists are compensated, but I saw Covid as a great opportunity to recruit some "newer thinking" studio players to provide tracks. They had no work. Touring artists as well. This comes from someone who has no idea about the parameters of how those people provide those tracks, but man, Paul Franklin, John Jarvis, Brent Mason.. it's all same old. I see a real need for new blood in those Real Tracks. It may just be too expensive, but 18 months went by when those guys weren't busy.

A related story. Just to be a clown, which I usually am, I sent a Tweet to Eric Marienthal saying "Hey thanks for providing the sax solo on one of my songs." He Tweeted back something close to "Who are you?" (I cleaned that up) and I explained that I used BIAB/RB and I pieced together a solo based on the snippets he supplied to PG. He responded "Oh man that was SO long ago I barely remember doing it." That kind of sums up what the OP addressed.

2021 now.

How about this?

How about some Matt Finley trumpet tracks? Some Dave Snyder guitar tracks? Some Notes Norton sax tracks? Some Herb Hartley? Some Roger Jackson? Each of those people play very well with a flair and style that is unique to them. Herb did a solo for me that was like Carlos Santana coming to my home. Rog has a lot of bluesy taste. Matt plays his Latin rhythm chops really well. (His CD was great, BTW.) Dave plays every style (And has a WICKED sense of humor!!) and his work has a certain "playfulness" in it.

Salt and pepper are great on chicken and eggs (no matter which came first) until the first time you try smoked paprika!

Beatmaster,
while I agree to a degree to some points you made...

Check this out:
I do not view BIAB as a program that will write music for me. It is a flexible tool with a lot of very interesting content. While YES, there is certain inclination toward community favorable genres, however (for me) there is a loaded elephant worth of very usable content. I am not shielding anybody or anything, this is my experience and opinion. BIAB is unique tool and because of that it's natural for it to have weaknesses, but benefits overweigh them by far for me.

Do I have requests..? Sure I do!
Winds, Reggae, Ska, cellos, sitar, straight rhythm brass and about 20 other items big and small as far as software goes

But again, for reasonably priced software I feel I am getting a bargain, even if I use only 5% of new yearly content.


M.

I see BM's point, and i agree with RSpoon. Eddie just cracks me up. Anyway (Hey Eddie those are some great suggestions all ribbing aside)here is my take. BiaB can get somewhat stale if you don't change it up some, (kinda Misha's point) if you take a nice Style, and switch out a couple instruments, maybe do a mid song style swap and back you can get some really cool stuff out of it. Roll your own styles just start with a blank no style canvas and audition some cool midi and RTs mix some together and save your own style.

Finally add tracks in from other sources other software. play a couple yourself.None of this is meant to argue agains BMs point just to offer some encouragement to what does PG always say, oh yeah "Have Fun"!

I'm gonna have to agree with beatmaster here. For the past few years it seems we get more of the same RealTracks with every upgrade. And I have reached the point where I seriously consider skipping further upgrades.

Until lately I have continued to have a lot of fun with each year's new RealTracks but I'm kinda in a bit of a rut and it seems so is BIAB.

So yeah I would really love to see some exciting new RealTrack directions. We have enough jazz, country and polka!

And to those eternal optimists who love to BIAB'splain that you can do anything with BIAB if we just put in the additional effort, I would remind them that we understand that and we know we have lots of other options with real instruments or VSTs.

But the value BIAB brings is in being able to prototype (or even finish) a complete song WITHOUT all that additional work!

So, when someone asks for new RealTracks for modern music they're not looking for a complex process by which BIAB can do this! They're hoping to be able to put together a modern song as swiftly as we can now for jazz, country or polka!

I agree with everyone here.

I just went into Real Band, put in the Bob Marley classic "Is This Love" as my song title that was supposed to give me similar styles.

Not one of them was even close, and none were really useable. Nothing at all like Is This Love.

I also tested with Might Might Bosstones, Sublime, and Reel Big Phish. Again, nothing really of any value.

Reggae and Ska are sadly and sorely under-represented.

Rustyspoon .....see this is whats wrong even in the forum !! you post .. I do not view BIAB as a program that will write music for me !!.


Then what is it !. Take a look at the videos that promote Biab to first timers !


Also i never said it didn't have in your words a loaded elephant worth of very usable content .

While YES, there is certain inclination toward community favorable genres..... What!! Thats not what i was posting Across the globe not community !!

It needs to get more modern real tracks and as posted earlier by Eddie that means players !


Also see that your on the showcase awards list , so you got it free Well thats worth it aint it !!!

To be fair, I'm pretty sure he had to own it BEFORE he entered the contest to get anything free.
So he's invested apparently, at least historically ..

If the question is, do we need more Realtracks and more variety, then the answer is almost always going to be YES.

Sometimes though, with around 3K RTs on the system, I wonder how many of us actually know what we've got already.
The problem with having this number of RTs is compounded by the descriptions - nothing wrong with them in themselves,
but it's hard to accurately convey a performance in three or four words. I tend to work in Realband and I often find that
I'm piecing together several RTs, all from radically different genres, but ones which still seem to work for the song.
I mean, how many people who might be doing a rock track bother to check out country guitar RTs, but sometimes the descriptions
can be misleading and the track may be just right.

I remember when I got a DX7 and I knew what all the 32 voices sounded like. A few years later we had keyboards with 1000 voices
and I hardly knew five percent of them. Now it's the same with RTs.

So, is the problem really that we don't have enough RTs and genres, or just that we don't have time to audition them all?

Just a thought...

My thought is this. Just to check, I just went through the path of Generate => Real Tracks and put in rock guitar. I don't know how many tracks came up, but it was maybe 12 names, many of whom are not relevant in 2021. One guy I never heard of has to be listed like 100 times. Do we need 100 options for THAT guy playing guitar, or would we benefit more from 20 options by each of 5 guys?

I liken it to this. The band I am in could really use to replace 2 of the players with better players. However, the power brokers of the band are SO lazy that they would rather ride it out with these 2 guys who can't play than have to go through the trouble of recruiting and auditioning to find better. It is hard to find better "things" when you don't bother to look for them.

There is a long list of musicians who had zero income in 2020. Like major touring dudes. And now they are scrambling for anything they can find to try and recover. Brian Culbertson took to streaming (His stream is GREAT, BTW) and creating a membership based "Hang Club" that gives different levels of access to him. This is a guy with 20 albums and normally a busy touring schedule. He has turned to heavily promoting his merch, selling paintings he does (that all look the same), t-shirts, caps... Now if a guy at THAT level is so hungry to recover a loss of many dollars in 2020, it is extremely likely that the studio dudes who were unemployed for that year are too. Did anybody approach any of them, or is it just like the band saying "It's easier to just ride with what we have though if we worked at it we could find better"?

Beatmaster,
I am a bit disappointed in your false presumption /accusation that I wrote what I wrote because I won the Showcase award... Actually I won it more than once... I am somewhat active in Showcase because I got to know people, their music, their personas, done several interesting collaborations, members helped me with technical aspects etc. It has nothing to do with me winning a generous award. I participate, because I like it. If it will change your mind, I re-gifted all my awards to my musical friends,  paying for my upgrades, because I believe in supporting a smaller company that makes something special and very useful to me.  Loops, Beats, elements are abundant elsewhere.... I use BIAB mainly for creating arrangement, ease of chord input, "live" sounding tracks, non looped rhythm guitars, solos, bass etc. The things that are very difficult to program so they sound real. 

Speaking of loops. Do you have any loop packs? It is a mix-bag, but there are whole bunch of decent modern items there.  Problem is sorting, but that is a "whishlist" item that was discussed recently, and perhaps that wish should be taken seriously, because I think it is a difficult task to stay focused on auditioning many unsorted items and it relates to what ROG said: "or just that we don't have time to audition them all?"  Nevertheless, these packs have some fun modern material.


Do I think JJJ right about slim selection of particular genre styles and complete prototyping - yes he is... 
I do not have a crystal ball, but  Peter Gannon and  I believe, Tobin of PG  participated in lengthy conversation about modern styles / Pop not too long ago. Perhaps the new release will feature a decent group of requested genre particular content.
  
I should consider myself lucky because I like many genres The point I am trying to make is:  BIAB is far from perfect, but for the price point you get one hell of a ride. 

As in my original post , same old , Same old on the forum as well.

You just cannot let a person have a point of view can you?,without turning it in to an attack or what seems like one .

The winners of the showcase awards are always going to form a majority of the same old soldiers who patrol this forum !,


Conflict of interest to post about a softwares worth when you don't pay for it , regardless of this year last year or whatever as in this software it's an annual upgrade so I'll make it clear I'm speaking about this years upgrade !.

And I'm not alone in my thoughts, I've had numerous private messages agreeing and pointing out the same and other ways to take the software forward in the future before it's too late .


So please read my post again ,I made it abundantly clear this was my views .


And Eddie spot on that puts it plain and simple, same player playing too many times the guy must end demented trying to vary them slightly in most cases .

interesting thread.
for me actually , i think mario has shown me the way ie useing third party budget orch libs with pg's rb/biab.
(ive posted my 2022 wishes in the wish lists....and saying daily prayers my wishes come true...lol)
so i'm thinking bout updateing not as often as i might have once, and useing the extra money for orch libs. //sample libs.
because my budget is limited due to other family obligations.
BUT THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES BOUT THE MUSIC INDUSTRY I OFTEN PONDER AS FOLLOWS...
many of us song creators spend lots of money on various products like biab that help us create songs, and for many of us like myself its an outlet for ones creative juices and a hobby.
(moi..)
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE A PROPER CAREER AND EARN SERIOUS MONEY so they can raise a family etc etc ......which brings me to the following points...and questions.
** imho the music industry is "broken" in many respects. there dont seem to be defined career pathways , like there are in some industries anymore.
**how do the next generation of aspiring songwriters actually make a decent living and raise a family ?
will they be willing to invest in software like biab if they are makeing 5 buks a month off of streaming for example ?
**do the normal masses of music consumers actually visit unknown musicians web sites ?.
from what ive seen only a few people do. thus its sorta like creating a great "party"....but what if nonone comes to the party ? you could have the most brilliant beef medallions (songs) at your party, but what if nobody comes to your party (web site.) ?

i have a feeling that there are millions of songs sitting on web sites that might not be visited/accessed without marketing aggressively. ie millions of songs nobody knows about.
with tens of thousands new songs added every month.
so is it enough if one wants to make a living just to set up a music site showcaseing ones talents on the net ? will anyone visit your site ?
**where do the thousands of commercial radio stations fit in ? and why is it often very difficult for new aspiring artists to get exposure on such ?
in the "old days" a demo tape or a 45 mintly pressed would find its way to commercial radio thus provideing a jumping off platform for a brand new artist in getting recognised. but this is a different era.
be curious on peoples thoughts re the above topics.
best
OM

You know Muso, everything you said is just a sign of the times. The music biz as we of the old guard know it was born and raised in a time when most of the distribution as we know it didn't exist yet. I mean back then you COULD record off the radio with your little cassette player, but that's not like today when the availability of music for download has largely eliminated sales. There have been hacked plugins for apps that allow music from streaming sources to be captured almost since the streaming services started. I had one for Pandora that had a save button right next to the skip button that allowed even free users to download songs. I quit using streaming like Pandora (NEVER used Spotify) for many reasons, most revolving around how little I care to listen to music anymore. (Can someone verify that even paid subscriptions to those services do or don't have ads?) Then was Napster, Limewire...

Remember when satellite radio was commercial free? That was like the first shot of heroin to get us hooked. We bought equipment, subscribed to the services (back then either XM or Sirius - now Sirius/XM), and then the commercials started creeping in.

Young musicians anymore know where the start button is on some device that didn't exist 40 years ago to play loops that someone else created and speak beat poetry over them and call it songwriting. How many people here can't play a note and post 17 songs per day, all created by the "start button" that is BIAB?

Look toward the newspaper industry as a parallel. How many people don't even realize that the newspaper they crave to have in their hands to read it with morning coffee is just a revisit of everything that happened yesterday? Those things were on the internet the minute they happened, and on TV news. Why read yesterday's news? (Because that's the way it has always been!!!) I frankly don't know how newspapers still exist. If Bob beats up Joe with an axe handle, there is no detail that a paper in THIS city will have that the newspaper in THAT city won't. That event was reported on the internet within an hour of it happening. Nothing changed since it happened, and if it does, the internet will have it first. Some day there will be one big Times-News-Post-Journal-Press-Leader-Tribune, which was the goal of William Randolph Hurst, and he was born in 1903.

Everybody on this planet needs to read Thomas Friedman's "The World Is Flat". Much of what is going on with globalization is discussed and explained in that book. Think about The British Invasion in the early 60s. Then think about how much faster that would have evolved if there had been an internet then.

Everything has to evolve. In some cases, just the perception of "new and improved" works. Why else does Tide continue to tell us it is "new and improved" every couple of years? It's frickin' laundry detergent. How much can that be improved upon? But the (stupid) public believes that somehow laundry detergent has changed significantly since 1946 when Tide first came on the market.

PG however, is not laundry detergent. It has to improve, and there is room to do that. New musicians providing samples is a great place to start.

EDITED to clean up 3 typos.

What is happening here? I...am...agreeing...with...Eddie???

[Rog] "I tend to work in Realband and I often find that
I'm piecing together several RTs, all from radically different genres, but ones which still seem to work for the song."

[Rog] "I remember when I got a DX7 and I knew what all the 32 voices sounded like. A few years later we had keyboards with 1000 voices
and I hardly knew five percent of them. Now it's the same with RTs.

So, is the problem really that we don't have enough RTs and genres, or just that we don't have time to audition them all?"



______________________________________


Excellent points and you're explaining what's a very common workflow for many audio enthusiasts using BIAB as cross-platform software for creating accompaniment tracks, practice tracks and original music. As you noted, BIAB in a similar fashion to the keyboard analogy, has grown dramatically in the volume of RealTracks, RealStyles, genres/sub-genres and Real instruments over a relatively short period of years. An issue besides what you've listed is that for cross-platform users, cross-platform compatibility has not kept pace with BIAB growth. This is true even for users that use RealBand.

If you start a project in BIAB, enter the chords, select a style, key and tempo and then save and open that song in RealBand to audition, load additional instruments and comp instrument tracks, that process severely restricts search options and some features that are available in BIAB that are not cross-platform compatible with any DAW including RealBand.

A search example that BIAB offers which RealBand, can't replicate is to audition a Style, Real or Midi, over the Chord Progression, tempo and key of the song project. A Style can sound radically different on the users Chord Chart than the Style Demo does. Simply opening RealBand, the only DAW having the capability to audition PG Music Styles, eliminates the opportunity to take advantage of this unique, exclusive and powerful search tool to the point of not finding a suitable instrument or style for your song project.

Another restrictive deficiency of bypassing BIAB for RealBand is the loss of the BIAB exclusive MultiStyle feature. PG Music Style developers have long made use of MultiStyles. They predate the introduction of RealTracks and RealStyles. My system has more than 8,000 Styles and nearly 1,000 of them are MultiStyles. Bypassing BIAB and using RealBand to either search Styles or to take advantage of pre-made PG Music MultiStyles, negates those nearly 1,000 Styles because RealBand doesn't respond to the MultiStyle Feature. All of the built-in programming is ignored and the feature is negated and the file is generated as if no editing had been done. To accomplish what a MultiStyle provides can take hours to get the same results in RealBand or every other DAW. MultiStyles are a very powerful programming tool and also quite versatile. Every Style in your StylePicker can be modified and converted into a custom MultiStyle by users. It's a simple process that can be done quickly either from scratch or by modifying an existing Style. MultiStyles can have up to 24 Substyles with each substyle having 'a and b' sections.

I've attached two m4a versions of a PG Music developed MultiStyle, Western swing soloist MultiStyle Demo, WSWING+.STY. One version is the Demo opened, loaded and rendered unaltered in BIAB and the second, opened, loading the style demo in RealBand and rendering it unaltered. The demo is the same in both programs but the rendered audio has radically different results that you'll hear for yourself and quickly realize the loss of productivity and ease of creating more complex, higher quality arranged tracks by opening your project in RealBand rather than BIAB. The BIAB version has multiple Soloists, different Styles, is more dynamic, interesting and lively.

Unfortunately, such radical differences will apply to every MultiStyle opened between the two programs. Cross-platform capability doesn't apply to the feature. Of course MultiStyles can be generated and exported from BIAB and the exported audio will play correctly in any DAW but my point here is to demonstrate the deficiency and restrictions of bypassing BIAB and searching and playing Styles and RealTracks from RealBand. There are many other features that are negated or unavailable to users of the cross-platform workflow with RealBand.

Isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse?

Beatmaster,
re-read carefully what I said about Showcase award that you pointed out so gently and see if your statement still makes sense.

"Conflict of interest to post about a softwares worth when you don't
pay for it..."

This is the last post I will make in this thread. I was only trying to be helpful. I hope you find what you are looking for.

P.S. When you talk about constructive, on the topic you raised... This was pretty constructive:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=645362#Post645362

Most Definitely!

Ok Thanks Rustyspoon the link you posted , to me was once again same old same old for too long ....Just like a rusty spoon take care !!

Here's one for the users who can't play but post songs they have "written".

(I know... I know... Be nice.)

I do enjoy that kind of 'dark humor'

for fun my dear wife gave me one birthday custom T shirts she had made that say "BE HAPPY PLAY GUITAR"
lol.
imho theres nothing quite like cranking a guitar amp to 11.
it makes me happy.
and whats with this ? ive been trying various new "teles"
in past few years. all seem to go out of tune easily...sigh. mind you i can be rather rough on a gtr.

back to biab i wish pg included a full blown orch lib at a decent price, thus precludeing extra time spent on midi traks and then useing third party plug ins.
gimme crazy unique horn and brass sounds for example...
bassoons oboes etc etc.

peace out
OM

That has always been a missed marketing opportunity in my opinion. Instrument section VSTs sold alongside their product. Horns and strings seems like a good thing to have available. Lounge Lizard does it for Rhodes pianos. PG can do it for strings. While I have used some of their violin Real Tracks, stand-alone orchestral horn and string sections would be great.

"back to biab i wish pg included a full blown orch lib at a decent price, thus precludeing extra time spent on midi traks and then useing third party plug ins.
gimme crazy unique horn and brass sounds for example...
bassoons oboes etc etc."


Why reinvent the wheel? These libraries are FREE:

https://thehomerecordings.com/the-11-best-free-orchestral-vst-libraries/


Back to the topic, I agree with a lot of what's been stated.

I've been requesting a clean, tasteful 2nd Guitar RT for a long time. Brett Mason is a great player, but he's a Blues Pig, and every track is overplayed, over-amped and absolutely swimming in reverb.

There. I feel better now.




Regards,

Bob

AND a perfect study in "how many notes can I fit into this 8 bars". While I admire his skills, he plays with very little taste IMHO. I will take a Joe Walsh type over a Brent Mason type every day. Joe's solos say something. Brent Mason's solos say only "look at me".

Joe Walsh !!! now your talking !! thats the style needed !

The point is that we shouldn't have to be piling up stuff to get these sounds. I don't know that place. I download that software and it has a keylogger in it to record my passwords, and then what? Also we are talking about Real Tracks from which parts can be built. VSTs are just sounds and then I have to play parts. I have a program that plays parts. So I don't have to.

People here would like to see some new artists and not 100 snips played by the same guy that are only slight variations on a theme.

Two quick points... which appear to be getting lost in the discussion.

1) Eddie, as you know any of the BIAB midi tracks or midi chord charts or individual RT midi transcriptions can be used to play any VSTi. So you can use these to play the parts. By combining this features of BIAB with the world of VSTi's opens a huge variety of high quality sounds.

2 BIAB has thousands of styles so it should not surprise anyone that they have a good selection of Orchestral Styles. Here is a listing of 83 which are all essentially Real Styles. But when they have RT transcriptions as many do, see point #1 above.

These two points have been a focus area for me over the past year or two. I only wish I had some good examples of their applications to illustrate these point. But that is another sad story.

Beatmaster,

Please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read your initial post you present two points:

Point One: I've read and reread this multiple times and come to the same conclusion, you expected the styles to be different between the Windows and Mac programs. I don't think that is what you mean.

What I suspect you mean is you've used the Windows version in the past. You decided to cross grade to Mac this year. You don't like the new for 2021 styles and wouldn't like them regardless is you had purchased this year's Window or Mac edition.

Point Two:

I understand that to mean you believe the core program has stagnated.

I'm not convinced the program has stagnated. I believe the program has been added on so much that it has become complex and difficult to enjoy or use to it's maximum potential.

Several other forum members have mentioned they want more musicians making RealTracks. May I suggest people look at UserTracks and Performance Tracks as a way to add variety to their audio productions? UserTracks and Performance Tracks allow anyone to create custom audio tracks that will work in Band-in-a-Box or RealBand. UserTracks work best for rhythm or background tracks while Performance Tracks are the perfect tool to use for riffs, melodies or solos. If a user knows what they want, but is unable to play it themselves, they can take the money they would spend on an annual upgrade or RealTracks set and hire a musician to record the part. Once they've created the RealTrack or Performance Track they can offer the part for sale and recoup some or all of their investment.

This is perhaps off topic but then maybe …

I find the DI option extremely helpful on many rhythm and solo guitar RTs. Once rendered DI I can then apply one of Logic’s many amps; mics and cabinets for a much different sound than the original RT. And when using DI it is easier comping different RTs as you get the same tone, etc. on your track. FWIW.

Bud

There are two schools of thought in this thread, 1) BIAB is getting a bit long in the tooth and needs an infusion of new blood, and 2) the possibility of BIAB is limited only to ones imagination and creative talent.

I fall somewhere in the middle.

By the way, here is an example demonstrating #2 by our own FJ.
https://soundcloud.com/fj-2/cowgirl-cinderella

While that is true, it still doesn't address the problem of overplaying. Everything is played way over the top, as a "solo". No finesse.


Regards,

Bob

I believe both schools of thought are correct.

For #1 - I think BiaB is falling behind other music generating software. Having limited time signatures, not having the ability to put chords on 8th or 16ths notes, not having more contemporary RTs or GUI are just a few examples.

For #2 - There are a number of forum members who are taking BiaB to the outer limits of creativity. Some are doing amazing work with RTs and/or MIDI.

My experience with RTs is very limited so all I can say is that there are a number of companies issuing loops that can be cut and pasted into songs. Thus there must be a big market for that and that could/does take revenue from PGM.

I know for a fact that BiaB is far behind others on the MIDI side. SuperMIDItracks (non-quantized tracks) are the norm outside of the PGM world as are the examples in #1.

YMMV

Mario, let's see if I can be succinct in my sleep deprived, light-headed state.

MY personal issue, and I may be a minority of 1, is not at all about the functionality (the program). It is about the content (the samples tracks). That is what has gotten stale. The same old-ness of the Real Tracks seem to have not had any new names of faces since my first copy (2009). Brent Mason is played out. So is Paul Franklin on pedal steel and John Jarvis on piano. Their samples sound like they sat on a stool, saw the red light go on, and said "How many notes can I fit in here to impress everybody with my glitz and glitter?" If you go through those styles carefully (you will likely never see all the cross-pollination unless it becomes a full time job) you see the same names surface on EVERY genre. I know full well that if I have a pattern in my mind that no generation software is going to randomly create it. All I am asking for (and some others seem to agree) is new names with different musical thought patterns and different skill sets. I think part of the obliviousness (and I didn't even know if that was really a word) comes from how many people have never left BIAB for RB. (I have never left RB for BIAB.) There seems to be a difference between what the 2 can create for soloing. (Someone who has used both please correct me on that if it is not correct.) I don't know if both pull from the same sample pool. In fact I don't even know what they mean by "sample tank". As I said earlier, studio and touring musicians were largely unemployed for 18 months. Did any of the power brokers at PG even consider approaching them about contributing?

I wish I could find that Twitter exchange with Eric Marienthal where I thanked him for doing a solo for me and he replied "Who the &$@*% are you?" Then I explained. LOL!

Although quite a few of the 83 Orchestral styles are good most of them still use the same Realtracks and Midi tracks.
Up until I upgraded to BIAB 2020 there have been no more Orchestral styles added since 2017

Another old guy FWIW

Bob,

When I was using a lot of RT guitar solos I used to create a separate SGU with only repeats of the solo chords and then regen and render the solo RT (set on simple and DI). When brought into the DAW I would have as many as a dozen options for the the solo. Frequently but not always I managed to find a mellow one either standalone or by comping. But as we all know some insist on playing virtually the same thing even with repeated regens. Heck, sometimes I'd alter the chords in the solo just to get something more like I was looking for. Regardless no disagreements -- just musing over how I tried to work through it.

Bud

Simple and DI don't cut it for what I'm talking about man. It's still just a simple, DI'd OVERPLAYED lick. I'm talking about Red Shea, Terry Clements, Steve Goodman accompaniment licks. Finesse...sweetness.


Regards,

Bob

[Eddie1261] "There seems to be a difference between what the 2 (RB and BIAB) can create for soloing.(Someone who has used both please correct me on that if it is not correct.)"

You're absolutely correct. The BIAB Plug-in can also be included. Neither RB or the Plug-in are fully functional BIAB programs. Both, at best when it comes to being BIAB, are BIAB lite.

The issue between RB, BIAB Plug-in and BIAB is not with content, they all use the same content, it's functionality. Most of the functionality lost between the two lite programs and the fully functional BIAB however involves how that content can be programed and manipulated. So in your case where you don't use BIAB at all, you fail to get any of the benefits, advantages, diversity and sometimes exclusive uniqueness of BIAB that no other software program including RB and the Plug-in can access.

My point is solely to answer your comment above. No disagreement to the fact I fully support both the requests for more content, new content and new artists. That said, I think some of the staleness you and others find in current BIAB/RB RT content is due to the lack of accessing many features that's exclusive only to BIAB.

I have owned BB for many years and have learned quite a lot. As I wish I could play an instrument but that is not one of the things i have been able to accomplish. but....
BB has allowed me to put into musical expression what goes on in my head,,, to a point.

The dilemma as I see it is my lack of musical ability, is RT"s stop short of us being able to be the brains and talent behind the musician, hence the compositions fall a bit short of (in my case) my expectations but is far better than than without it.
Now those who play, I can see the frustration of the rt styles being stale. they are for me also, but stale is better than none and for the price, well worth it.
I recently watched a youtube vid by Guy Michelmore, a British composer using Cubase Pro and Native instruments and other hardware with his keyboard. There was the gap between me a wantabee and where my head hears ideas.
BB can be more but at what price?
Just an observation not a solution

Every music software program has at least one advantage as compared to other music software. For example Reaper is known as being easy to customize and low cost, ProTools for its integration with Avid hardware, MultiTrack Studio for it's integrated MIDI sound module.

The Band-in-a-Box advantage I've noticed is it allows use of third party content like audio loops and MIDI files in addition to it's native content.

I don't know what the answer is but there does seem to be a higher than normal disillusionment with the content and to a lessor degree the program.

As you read this thread it is important to remember context. We have people from everywhere and who embrace different genres at different levels. I love The Cure, Daft Punk, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Public Image Ltd... I was big into the post punk thing. Yet having studied music in college, I also love bands that were orchestral, Like ELO, and the funkers, like EW&F, AWB, OP... I may be 70 but I'm not locked in a box. You have people here who will tell you that if it ain't country it ain't music. We have a guy who leads a Brasilian Samba band. We have techno/dance/trance/rave kind of people.

My idea of a fun band would play Talking Heads, Thompson Twins, Howard Jones, Daft Punk. OMD, Gary Numan, Pet Shop Boys... Just me with a wireless guitar and a bunch of MIDI instruments running around like a maniac to make sure no notes stick... But that won't be the favorite cup of tea for a 75 year old guy from the south yelling "That ain't no Hank Williams song!" Others will tell you music died when The Beatles broke up.

Point being, how daunting of a task is it for PG to make software with real track samples that will keep everybody happy? They do a really good job of it. Yet again, I still say it's getting a little "same old" and would love to see new artists samples instead of devoting a lot of time to some bit of programming minutia that maybe 4 people care about and will use once. "The most good for the most people" seems to be appropriate.

EDDIE.
i gotta agree with all you say.
imho its time to inject some "va va voom" or "pizazz"
into the product.
i agree when you say why should we have to buy all these other 3rd party products. for example i have other family
financial commitments.
yes its a great product; but i just feel really ...
new suites of grreat RT's would "knock it outta the park" !!
best
om

Interesting thread. I made a decision to play modern songs in my set. Pop hits. I added a sample playlist to explain what I'm looking for. I've yet to see if I can create them in BIAB or Reaper/BIAB. I use the VoiceLive 3 Extreme, so I've got the modern vocal sounds more or less covered.

I love Realtracks, but simplicity is definitely the order of the day for some of the new Realtracks. I'd love to see the Usertracks tool developed as well. So much talent we could leverage just from this group. When I see you guys give up on tools, I tend not to go down that rabbit hole.

Sample playlist:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3biOj8B3vi8MfAfMujvCUo?si=71ad41d1a1eb4e50

+ 1 for a new band of realtrack artists.

Seems to me if PG released a heap more RealTracks one would still find a need for a different RealTrack. Rarely do I use a RealStyle as it comes. Almost always I’ll replace or add a track. Often I wish there was a track that had this or that and sometimes create my own track. Then maybe several projects later I find the track I wish I had.

From my perspective, when it comes to creating or generating songs for me the biggest limitation is my imagination.

Tony

Howdy 90....

I see your point but I tend to prefer the overplaying.

IE:
I don't just keep any particular default lead track as is and let it play throughout.
I tend to generate 2 or 3 versions of a particular lead track and cut them up.
That's where my arrangement work really begins. (in this context)

With this type of program I prefer they overplay.
I'll take a 1 or 2 bar riff and make it a signature revisited riff at appropriate parts of the arrangement.
Maybe the 8 bar lead line playing through verse 3 will be the one I think is best for the lead section itself.

I can cull or edit out what parts that don't fit with what my pea brain is trying to put together.
That process is how I work so I don't see it as overplaying.
I see it as having many creative options to consider and flesh out to my creative satisfaction.
Of course, that doesn't mean anyone else will think my originals are worthy.

Hope that makes sense....have a great day.

(Although, in reading other comments I do agree with getting new RT blood from other stellar musicians....not an easy task, I'm sure. I'm still on 2015 UltraPlusPak)

And therein lies the heart of the issue. You can only please some of the people some of the time. No matter how many RealTracks, MIDI tracks, Styles or more were produced, something would always be missing. Not a complaint, just a fact.

Was just wondering, who on here is going to break the bad news to Brent Mason that he has lost favour on here, (plays way too fast) and we want him out of the band, Oh I know he is going to say we we are an ungrateful lot, was available 24/7 never got drunk etc, and maybe even say we give him some sh***y songs to play on.

Maybe this is a job for Eddie.

Get me his number. I'll handle it. He's a fellow Buckeye. He can take it!

So loops and Samples the way to go then ,Any recommendations for good sites where I can buy some to start giving it a go ?.

Its been posted quite rightly, about users of Biab already doing great songs using loops to add the spice.

Well that was my original point a guess , with the upgrade/cross grade cost, I will now spend it on the loops etc.

Any suggestions of good quality ones ?

Pretty much just that Google is your best friend.

+++ Big Fish Audio +++ is my go to for song construction kits, loops and samples. They are a distributor for many developers. They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.

You don't say? This looks very interesting to me at this time. There was always a bit of a hurdle for me when I work with loops. Perhaps this is what I was missing. Thanks Jim, for the referral.

So, the resolution to the points made in this thread is that after paying $569.00 for the program, one would need to purchase some loop libraries. This is if you want to have a "modern" sound.


No new players, no new styles. It's a disappointment.


Regards,

Bob

Definitely be looking at Big Fish Audio !!. Thanks Jim !

OH ! do you need full version Kontakt ?.

Not for audio loops. But read the descriptions carefully as they do have Kontakt only presets. Some may say in wav, aiff, and presets for Kontakt. You can use those wav files without having Kontakt. Searching for loops is your best bet.

will do Mario

will do Mario

Dan, if you get this figured out lemme know how you do it! I bought one of their loop packs about 6 years ago and could never really figure out how to use it. I installed it in Kontakt and I can play around with the loops but never really ever figured out how to use these in a song. There doesn't seem to be any real documentation on how to use them so I'd love some tips!

Will do.

I actually am not looking to purchase more loop packages. I am sure if I look around my hard drives I will find loop collections which I already have. So I am hoping this will work with what I have. What caught my attention here was a statement that "...just insert loops and they fit themselves into your arrangement within the DAW. So I am hoping this is that missing tool I need to make loops work for me.

Momentum is a sampler that can be used instead of Kontakt. Plus, it is free.

Samples and loops have many different features. The biggest is some loops have embedded pitch, tempo and key signature meta data and some don't. Those that do typically identify as "Acidized Waves". You'll also find loops with features specific to a certain program like FL Studio, Halion, Rex and Reaktor.

Loops and samples that take advantage of all the features Momentum offers will be identified as KLI or Momentum compatible.

Big Fish has multiple free loop sampler packages available for download. You will find them +++ HERE +++. Free loops is a great way to practice and learn how to use.

Just like Kontakt has a free library, Momentum has 3.8 GB of available content to practice and learn on.

+++ THIS +++ webpage has Windows and Mac download links as well as tutorial videos to help get you started.

Not really. PG Music provides 2,000 loops with Band-in-a-Box so we know loops work inside Band-in-a-Box. Where do you go if you want more loops or a specific loop (cowbell anyone?). I suggested a source for loops.

I haven't seen any program advertised as the only music source you'll ever need. Of course there will be new styles. There are new styles every year. There are new RealTracks every year. What we don't know is who will be the musicians playing on the RealTracks.

Maybe PG Music should avoid controversy and revert back to the alias or pseudonym of "PG Artist" that performed many of the guitar and mandolin RealTracks.

I agree new artists creating new sounds would be nice. But I haven't heard much new music that I like so I'm like a child in a candy store; I know I want something different but I don't know what it is I want. I just know that when I hear it I'll like it and will be inspired.

"Not really. PG Music provides 2,000 loops with Band-in-a-Box so we know loops work inside Band-in-a-Box. Where do you go if you want more loops or a specific loop (cowbell anyone?). I suggested a source for loops."


It's called "Band In A Box", not "Loops In a Box".


"I haven't seen any program advertised as the only music source you'll ever need."

When did I make that statement? Never, actually.


"What we don't know is who will be the musicians playing on the RealTracks."

Really? In my experience it will be the SAME OLD PLAYERS.


"Maybe PG Music should avoid controversy and revert back to the alias or pseudonym of "PG Artist" that performed many of the guitar and mandolin RealTracks."


'...avoid controversy...'? They named the artists to cash in on their notoriety in the first place.


"I agree new artists creating new sounds would be nice."

Finally; something we agree on! I would edit your statement (since you have chosen to quote a statement I never made); I would say "new artists creating new sounds would be expected for my $569.00".


Regards,

Bob

I am pretty happy with BIAB just like it is. I can think of many things I would like them to do.
I really like Brent Mason for country tracks. I think he is very over used on other styles and is certainly not my favorite blues player.

The price of a audiophile disk is pretty cheap for what it does, then again I don't have to consider refinancing my house to pay for it.

It's called BIAB not "live professional studio musicians will show up at your house and play for you.

The biggest complaint I have with BIAB is the difficulty in learning to use it.

Billy

"It's called BIAB not "live professional studio musicians will show up at your house and play for you."

Really? This is from the PG Home Page:


1. What is Band-in-a-Box?
Band-in-a-Box is an intelligent automatic accompaniment program. You can hear and play along to many song ideas and go from "nothing" to "something" in a very short period of time with Band-in-a-Box as your "on demand" backup band. Just type in the chords for any song using standard chord symbols (like C, Fm7 or C13b9), choose the style you'd like, and Band-in-a-Box does the rest. Band-in-a-Box automatically generates a complete professional quality arrangement of piano, bass, drums, guitar and strings in a wide variety of styles.


Seems to me that's exactly what the program is promising.


Regards,

Bob

Well Bob, that is their sales pitch and for the most part true. What the quality of their "complete professional quality arrangement" is does not often make me satisfied.

I paid a vocalist more to sing on one tune than the audiophile disk cost. I did use BIAB to lay out the chord structure which it did a very good job of.

Many people here say they get a finished product from BIAB. I am glad they are happy with what they get.

The last serious studio project I did cost me $30,000 in cash.

Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital.

Musicians universally complain about everything for the most part.

By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. I do think they make a pretty good product and they have been a nice company for me to deal with.

Nothing I say here is likely to change anyone's mind about anything.

Billy

Well, Billy,

As a customer, and a long-time proponent of BIAB, I think I've earned the right to comment. You may disagree....whatever.


"Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital."


I lived in LA for 15 years. In the music scene. You take a lot for granted.


Regards,


Bob

There's stock?

Sorry Matt, I misspelled that. I don't own any socks. I live in the tropics and find no need for them.

Billy

Hi Jim
I’m keen to give this a go! I have only ever used percussion type loops where pitch is not important. How do these loops from big fish transpose to the right key?

First you have the right to say anything you like. We agree on a lot of things, Brent Mason for one. I also lived in La for many years and worked in the music business for Universal Studios and played in my band there and in Europe.
If you lived, played, and recorded in LA you know exactly what the quality of things are there and how difficult it is to get what you want even in LA with plenty of money.
No software program is going to replace that.
That is not to say BIAB has no value because it dose.

I took the time to go to Band Camp and listen to a good bit of your songs. You have some pretty nice songs. Some sound like they were created in BIAB. That is not necessary a bad thing, it is also not pro studio.

I liked 100 Miles From Austin how ever it got put together. There are people here who do excellent work. Jane Floyd comes to mind but I can assure BIAB is not the only tool he uses.

Not everything has to come our of Abbey Road Studio in London to sound good.
I have a couple of really good songs that a very well professionally recorded using top session players in LA that no one seems to have a interest in except me and a few friends.
Thake a listen,

https://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw/three-long-years

There are no guitar players on BIAB that can play like Lewis.

Cheers,

Billy