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We watched the first episode of this Apple TV series and it was fascinating. The episode covered the history of Auto-Tune. While the music focus was light years from our preferences it did not diminish the great presentation of the subject - pros and cons. Bud PS OK, please no hating on this Apple guy. Thank you. 
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Auto-Tune...I am not sure that is a subject we can even comment on here on this site because it is so highly identified with Rap music now days.
The first time I was aware of Auto-Tune was when Cher used it on Believe. It is a tool like many things, not something I would just like or dislike.
I assume one has to be curious to know about Exxon and Andy Hildebrand. That would be a good trivia question at OTC (Offshore Technology Conference) in Houston.
Billy
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Auto-Tune...I am not sure that is a subject we can even comment on here on this site because it is so highly identified with Rap music now days.
The first time I was aware of Auto-Tune was when Cher used it on Believe. It is a tool like many things, not something I would just like or dislike.
I assume one has to be curious to know about Exxon and Andy Hildebrand. That would be a good trivia question at OTC (Offshore Technology Conference) in Houston.
Billy I think it’s highly identified with most all genres. The show didn’t even mention rap. More focus on current pop. Regardless the interviews with the developer of it and it’s evolution was interesting. And of course pitch editing goes way beyond vocals. It’s great for getting an RT note to resolve into a vocal, changing a bass note, etc. But I’ve never used it in a vocal  Bud
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Hi Bud, I wish I could see the video. Pitch correction with software is a lot less costly than the many takes on vocal tracks and having to cut and paste all that together that was common in the past. I use Melodyne for pitch correction on vocals and instrumentation and for special effects. Both Auto-Tune and Melodyne go beyond just pitch editing. What I was referring too in the rap world was that many of those artist use Auto-Tune to define "their" sound along with making "music" that is made up of just rhythmic sounds. T-Pain and Daft Punk sort of define the use of Auto-Tune in rap. In some ways the more I have tried to use Melodyne the less I like the results for vocals. Having every note in pitch just sounds to mechanical for me. I have seen some vocalist use Auto-Tune in real time live. Not my cup of tea but many people like it. Software in general and pitch correction software has allowed many people to record saleable music that could not have done so without it. In the past one had to be a really skilled vocalist to get in a studio. We obviously have many wonderful vocalist today as in the past. We also have people selling "music" who have no classical musical ability. I really don't like rep music that portrays and promotes violence, drug use and many other things. It has provided a world for otherwise disenfranchised people to feel a part of. Modern software has in large measure made this possible. I think many people my age that grew up listening to people like Patsy Cline have a hard time to connect with much of the "music" being produced today. I listen to a lot of stuff I don't like just to try to understand what is going on. Things like Auto-Tune will continue to evolve and a certain segment of music will become more electronic by the year. Insert AI in the mix and there is no telling what things will sound like twenty years from now. We live in a strange world where people on one side of town are killing themselves with fentanyl and people on the other side of town are driving robotic cars around on Mars. Music has become just about as diverse. Billy I looked at this video to check for suitability. This is pretty cool stuff. Daff Punk rehearsal for the Grammys. https://youtu.be/KmWXaIOFwrg
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/01/21 10:23 AM.
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Agreed. And as I'm likely your age or older I don't connect well with much of the newer material either but from having started recording in an Atlanta studio in 1966 to the present I've remained interested in all technical advances in our field of interest. In the episode I was fascinated by a scene where one of the episode producers who could not sing attempted such and it was turned into a perfectly pitched vocal. That ain't correction that's creation. FWIW, etc.
Bud
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And then consider that autotune and vocoder have become conflated in recent discussions. Cher used a vocoder/talk box-like device on that song NOT to tune her voice but to give it the mechanized feel that fit what was (face it) a horrible song to begin with. Autotune is to pull Britney Spears into tune. (Oy!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2uqcQDmy9w
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Here is a pretty good video of how Cher made Believe. As far as I know this was one of the first example of the use of Auto-Tune. Mark Taylor was the producer and explains the process. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cher+and+auto+tune&&view=detail&mid=59232805F50C5066D6D959232805F50C5066D6D9&&FORM=VDRVRVNPR said "Believe it or not, Cher's dance anthem "Believe" has just turned 20 years old. The song, released on Oct. 22, 1998, kicked off a Cher renaissance, cemented her role as a pop icon and popularized a controversial fixture of pop music today — Auto-Tune." From Wikipedia ""Believe" topped the charts of Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, the Republic of Ireland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States. It earned Cher a place in the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest female solo artist to top the Billboard Hot 100 chart and became the highest-selling single by a solo female artist in the United Kingdom. "Believe" is one of the best-selling singles, with sales of over 11 million copies worldwide.[2] Reviewers praised its production and catchiness and named it one of Cher's most important releases. It was nominated for the Grammy Award for Record of the Year and won Best Dance Recording." So...like it or don't it is an icon of the pop music world and the use of Auto-Tune. Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/01/21 02:25 PM.
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They covered Cher in the show and discussed what occurred with the developer of Auto-Tune. Pretty cool guy actually.
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My two favorite jazz instruments are flugelhorn and soprano sax. Playing these in tune is like herding cats. Herding cats may be easier.
So I admit I've used Autotune on my recordings. My general practice, though, is only to pitch-shift the last note of a phrase, and then only if it makes the beginning of the next phrase sound wrong.
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There is a difference between what Cher did on Believe and pitch correction (although the tools used may be the same or similar). They are both to do with adjusting the pitch of vocals. The effect will depend on what you are trying to achieve. I think what most people don’t realise is that pitch correction is used on most modern commercial music production. I read that Christine Aguilera would sit and do 100 takes of a vocal, which was then comped and still had some pitch correction applied.
I also think it is pretty safe to say that nobody can sing 100% on pitch all the time. So if one is after a recording with perfectly pitched vocals, then pitch correction is a must. If you are going for an old school rock track , you may want to leave the vocals as they are.
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 08/01/21 07:55 PM.
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Some degree of “imperfections” are often to our ears called soul and help constitute the uniqueness of the singer.
IMHO Frank didn’t need correction. Ella didn’t need correction. Billie didn’t need correction. And, again IMHO, neither did thousands of other great singers of all genres before the 1998 advent of Auto-Tune. I simply do not recall discussions of vocal imperfections coming out of renown studios.
The producer of the episode was conflicted on wholesale usage of pitch correction and said, “great singers play between the notes all the time. They bend the notes …that’s how you get emotion out of it.”
I’m not suggesting that it’s not a good tool for an obvious need of correction. I just don’t think every note needs to be zero cents from perfect, i.e., the aforementioned play between the notes can be a good thing.
And a big ole FWIW.
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To my ears what Cher did in that (insipid) song was way closer to talk box than autotune. Listen to that and then listen to Roger Troutman and Zapp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_IPV2zeDIcThen go back to the Britney Spears clip I posted. THAT is autotune. This, and Cher, was just vocal effect. Whether they used similar electronics to do it or not, this Zapp tune is closer to what Cher did. And THIS is from 1980.
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There are no wrong notes, just better ones. It is very easy to over use every sort of tone and pitch control devise.
I think if you came from a blues background you are always bending notes both instrumentally and vocally. I fact I sometimes have a hard time to not bend notes when I am trying to play more jazz style stuff. If it sounds right it really does not matter if it is in tune or not. I have screwed up some good vocals trying to pitch correct them. It is at least normally possible to back out of the changes.
Sometimes I think musicians are the worst judge of what sounds good. I think we all tend to over play at times.
We can get so involved with software and electronics we spend way to much time fooling around and not enough time playing.
It is very easy to create songs that are way to complex with way to much stuff going on. There has been a world of great music done on two inch tape with none of the common effects we use today.
I like to try out new stuff but it does get in the way of staying on top of good musicianship at times.
All this home studio stuff has been both a blessing and a curse for me. I dearly miss being in a studio environment with other musicians.
The pandemic is raging here in Miami so I really have little idea what the future holes.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/02/21 03:08 AM.
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I have seen that video before 90 db. Still as funny as the first time. Check THIS ONE out too. Then listen to this guy REALLY sing.
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Bud, there's a similar series on Netflix called "This is Pop". It's episode 2 is about Auto-Tune as well. Most of the info talked about from your references above appear to be in this one too.
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Bud, there's a similar series on Netflix called "This is Pop". It's episode 2 is about Auto-Tune as well. Most of the info talked about from your references above appear to be in this one too. Thanks, I'll check it out. We skipped episode two as it was all about samples but episode three on reverb was interesting. BTW, here in part are the credentials of the series producer and narrator and point man (Mark Ronson). "He has received seven Grammy Awards, including Producer of the Year for Winehouse's album Back to Black and two for Record of the Year singles "Rehab" and "Uptown Funk". He received an Academy Award, a Golden Globe Award and a Grammy Award for co-writing the song "Shallow" (performed by Lady Gaga & Bradley Cooper) for the film A Star is Born (2018)"
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That guy, Mark Ronson has won a ton of awards. Plays guitar...does just about everything in the music world. Even been named in a lawsuit or two...lol
Now you are making trouble making me thinking about buying Apple TV...lol
Also my wife is calling me for lunch which would be great except I have to endure another episode of the Young and The Ruthless on TV. Apple TV where are you when I need you...lol
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/03/21 06:36 AM.
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Bob beat me to it. That girl in the studio is hilarious. And yeah.... You expect to hear AT in rap and pop music. But when country icon George Strait uses autotune, you know it went mainstream when George Strait was using it on his music. Hear it here>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zvQ41UuskThere's a huge difference between Melodyne and AT. You have to work at getting that AT sound with Melodyne. It's possible, but not a straight out of the box sound.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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They are really tight with these episodes. The are not on youtube or even a torrent site. But I expect that from Apple. They know how to protect their interests.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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