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I don't play Sax so I have little idea about the subject. Matt said in another post that Soprano Sax had tuning issues and I assume intonation issues.
I assume having a really well constructed horn to begin with helps. I don't have much of a concept of embouchure tension and control. I assume it is a major factor.
The subject came up in reference to Auto-Tune. So without real time software pitch control how do you deal with it? What happened back in the day of two inch tape recordings? Go back and punch in bad notes?
This whole tuning/intonation issue has been a source of constant irritation for me with guitar. I can bend a string to correct for a flat note but this becomes impossible for me to deal with in that manner playing a chord.
Billy
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Ha.
I hope I said intonation issues. You tune a soprano sax to match a tuning pitch, but then any other note may be out a little bit. You adjust as you go with your embouchure. It's just that more adjusting is needed on the soprano than, say, an alto or tenor. Things smaller become a little harder to control. And any wind instrument is a compromise when building it to accommodate the harmonic series. Some notes are simply 'out' more than others. You know where they are and you adjust.
Absolutely, better horns have better inherent intonation, but all horns require some adjustment on some notes. Pitch also varies with the attack and volume you use.
Sure, I do a lot of punching in. Usually easier and faster than making adjustments afterward with timing or pitch using AutoTune, and the results sound more authentic.
Same for trumpet and even more so for flugelhorn, my main horn.
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Hi Matt,
I could of not remembered well the exact words you used. Old timers disease.
Intonation in the string instrument world is and always been a serious issue. Really well made guitars solve a bit of the issue but not all. There are some special ways to make the nut at the top of the guitar with different strings starting closer to the bridge. This is not something really new and has been done by skilled luthiers on mandolins a lot in the past.
The latest iteration is something called Buzz Feiten tuning system. It also has been around for a good while and is the best solution I have used. Everything else being equal it can keep the intonation within a few cents over the fret board. For it to work correctly requires CNC production of the guitar and close attention to detail and process of wood selection. The way you tune the guitar is non standard and the way the intonation is set is not standard.
I was just wondering if something in the Horn world was used other than embouchure control.
Playing live on stage a musician may not be as aware of these issues as much as in the studio. You only screw up once on stage, the recording last a lifetime...lol
Distractions caused by intonation issues take away from ones ability to perform well or at least for me they do. It is one of the many reasons professional guitar players have a guitar tech working with them at important venues. Some of the techs play as well or better than the performing artist. ZZ Tops guitar tech has replaced Dusty after he passed away.
With guitars the G string is normally tuned in the open position. So is the A string but press the A string at the fifth fret which is a G note and it is very often out of tune with a standard electric guitar.
I assume Horn builders have difficult issues in controlling the exact needed shape of the Horn.
The whole subject of intonation is quite interesting to me and actually pretty complex.
Cheers,
Billy
EDIT: Sorry brain dead. I ment the D string not A. G is on the tenth fret of the A string.
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/03/21 11:06 AM.
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Hi Matt,
I was just wondering if something in the Horn world was used other than embouchure control.
Yes. Alternate fingerings.
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What Matt is referring to here is that 'G' on trumpet, for instance (or most Bb brass instruments) can be played without touching a single valve, just straight thru the horn. You can also get the same note using the 1st & 3rd valves closed .. but it goes thru different tubes and thus sounds 'different'. This happens at various spots up and down the scale, and more often the higher you get. Same thing happens on other horns. Most brass instruments also have 'slides' where you can adjust the pitch for any of the valves you close. Actually, many brass instruments have a ring on the tube of the 3rd valve so you can slip your finger in there and slide the tube out and back, making it different lengths. This is to tune certain 'known' note issues. There are indeed multiple ways to handle intonation on horn .. for me guitar is much harder, but I didn't study guitar for 20+ years either .. That said, to me every guitar is a little different so that complicates things even more I have 2 strats, they are not even close to how they play to each other as far as intonation This is likely boring for most (there was a pun there somewhere). You said it fascinated you .. so you asked for it 
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Cool post rharv. Just the sort of thing I was looing for. It is certainly not boring to me. I know I am not the only one who gets frustrated with intonation issues but I rarely hear it talked about.
The only way it got mostly solved was to buy Tom Anderson guitars for me. He makes strat style guitars along with some other types. Tom's methods are well documented on the internet. You can hear gifted players playing his stuff at the Namm shows every year.
I have a couple of Fender strats which will not play in tune all the way up the neck no matter what I do to them. There are OK for a loud blues club I guess.
Most likely string instruments are the most difficult to deal with. Other wise why would some pay million dollar sums of money for certain violins for example. They may not have intonation issues but other things come into play.
One of the reasons that electric guitars play differently is lack of production control and the fact that wood does not always stay where you put it. To make them play well and stay put is a real art with a bunch of technology added to the mix.
I understand pretty well how to make a guitar but I would not even know where to start making a Horn. I assume the same CNC technology is used to get consistent results now days.
Fun subject.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/03/21 02:00 PM.
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This is likely boring for most (there was a pun there somewhere).
Some horns simply have less accurate boring. When I was looking for an MF horn years ago, a different mouth pipe solved the issue. Why? it was simply a different bore. Guess what I'm getting to is yes. CNC and engineering/design are huge for horns as much as for other instruments. I paid my brother to replace my mouth pipe on the MF horn (it's what he does); made a lot of difference. I happened to get one originally with the bore they later fixed moving forward. So he got me the newer one. The rest of the horn was fine. I have no idea how to fix the strat(s), but I sure like playing them, even as bad as I do.
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A strat can be fixed but then it is not really a strat. Some things were never ment to be well made. Every now and then you may run across a really well made strat but that was a manufacturing defect...lol
Every guitar one plays needs to fit ones hand, The neck shape, it's width, the distance of the strings from the side of the neck, how high the strings are...I could go on for a while.
Guitars may look like simple machines, they are anything but simple.
The problem I had for a very long time was I had no idea even what basic questions to ask. I think I am pretty much like many guitar player. We got our first guitar. We started trying to learn to play. That became difficult because we may have had a junk guitar. We got more guitars but things only partly improved. Then one day if we were really lucky someone showed us what to buy and why. Again if we were lucky we had the money to do that. All of a sudden a whole new world opened up.
Sometime we buy guitars because one of our guitar hero plays a certain brand and model or because uncle someone played that brand. We search on and on for tone having no idea how it was produced. More effects peddles, strings that the guitar gods say they use. Buy Black leather hats so perhaps we may sound like Stevie Ray Vaughn.
I have a friend who last year got himself a Gibson Les Paul 1958 and paid over $200,000.00. I played the guitar. It sounded pretty good and played pretty well but it still did not play in tune all the way up the neck. Sure I would like to have one of Gary Moore's guitars but not because it plays super well. I will never have that kind of money.
If you like playing the strat then it is the best guitar in the world.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/03/21 04:02 PM.
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Everything on a horn affects everything.
Re: using slides, I was concentrating my answer on the soprano sax, which has no slides. Yes, of course, on trumpets and flugelhorns you have alternate fingerings AND tuning slides. The better trumpets also have a first valve slide or trigger. I tend to use that more than the third valve slide. The second valve tubing is so short, it does not have a slide, so you must adjust by lipping the note to the correct pitch. Same for open notes (no valves depressed).
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What do you call an “in-tune electric guitar”? An oxymoron.
What is the first sign you’re hallucinating? Two electric guitar players are playing in tune.
How do you get two electric guitar players to play in perfect unison? Shoot one of them.
As you can see it is getting late...lol
Billy
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My current fave strat is a cheap Peavey I picked up for $30. I spent quite a bit of time setting the intonation and doing a setup on the trem that I found online involving tighter torque on the outer two attachment screws and less on the inner 3 screws. Fun to play. Stays pretty well in tune up the neck. I did my now standard mod I do to all strats, adding an on off capability to the tail pup. Love the neck + tail sound, not unlike a middle position tele sound.
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Hi Billy,
I've been repairing vintage Fenders for about fifty years now, so let me see if there's anything I can help you with, regarding your problems with intonation.
Firstly, lets assume that the fret spacings are accurate, because there's nothing you can do if they're not. Secondly, let's also assume that you know about the best way to adjust the string length at the saddle - ask me if you're not sure. Now for the things which are often missed - fret type, string gauge and string height.
The height of the fret is important, because as you press the string down it will bend between the frets, stretching the string and affecting the pitch. We actually use this for certain vibrato effects. The lowest frets I've found are on 70s Fenders with the maple neck and hard polish. These low profile frets are very fast to play on, but hard to bend if you're playing lead, because the string tends to slip under your finger. The highest frets are probably jumbo frets, though some vintage frets can also be quite proud. These are easy to bend, but if you're playing chords up the neck with light gauge strings, they can be a bit pitchy. String gauge matters, because the heavier strings won't bend as much between the frets, so if you're playing chords up the neck I suggest avoiding anything under 10/46 gauge. Lighter gauge strings are fine for lead, where you can control the pitch of individual notes better.
The set-up is also very important. If the strings are well clear of the fretboard, the they have to stretch more when the string is depressed. A low set-up is always faster to play and better for pitch, but not all guitars can be set-up this way for various reasons, usually connected with bad manufacture, but also because the guitarist likes to play hard. My guitars have an action of about a millimetre at the octave fret with no buzz anywhere!
Finally, how hard you play will affect things. The harder you hit the string the more it bends and the more it stretches, raising the pitch. You can watch this happen in real time if you have a good guitar tuner - as the sound dies away the pitch falls again. We're talking a few cents, but there it is.
I could write a book on this subject, but I hope at least some of this makes sense and helps sort out your problems.
Cheers,
ROG.
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I'm a sax player.
No sax is in tune with itself. When I bought my Selmer Mark VI there were 3 in the store. I went in with a strobe tuner (they were state-of-the-art back then) and picked the one with the best intonation. Even though the serial numbers were close, they had different degrees of intonation problems.
I no longer have the luxury of doing that when I buy a new sax because local music stores usually don't even carry one pro level horn anymore. If they do, it's only one. My last 3 saxes I bought on the Internet. I'm currently playing a Yamaha that has better intonation than most others I've owned.
As mentioned, smaller horns are generally worse.
The first thing your sax player needs to do is this. Tune the sax on the note that will be used for general tuning. Then sit in front of the tuner and play long tones, noticing which notes need more pressure on the reed to make sharper and which notes need less pressure to make flatter. Do the entire range of the horn and do this until the player can predict which way to 'humor' the sax.
Once you have memorized which way to lip an individual horn you have to use your ears to play in tune.
Every time I buy a new sax, I spend about a week in front of a tuner. I don't use alternate fingerings unless it's a fast finger tangling run, I use the fingering with the clearest tone for longer notes, so that's what I practice in front of the tuner.
There are times when I play a note out intentionally for tension, sometimes slowly bringing it to pitch, but without having an idea whether the not is naturally sharp or flat, there is no way to intentionally do that.
So have you sax player put about an hour a day into long tones in front of the tuner, and after that perhaps in front of a long synthesized note to develop a critical ear for intonation (as needed). There is no shortcut, it's part of being proficient at your chosen instrument.
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Very good comments from Notes. I didn’t mean to imply I use alternate fingerings on my sax to correct intonation. I was answering the question, is there any other way to adjust the pitch on a sax.
Now, on the trumpet family I do use alternate fingerings normally. For example, E at the top of the staff is played open on a (standard) Bb trumpet, but on most C trumpets it is more in tune with valves 1& 2.
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Hi ROG,
All this conversation about intonation has been more historical than a current problem. I have been playing Fender Stratocasters starting around 1970. I also have one vintage Gibson Les Paul.
Guitars aside, in the beginning I did not know how to fret the guitar. I am sure you are well aware of that issue.
No guitar is 100% in tune at every fret position. The reasons are many and pretty complex. The results of less than prefect intonation can be a real issue or not depending the type of music, being able to actually hear the issue and your own personal tolerance for playing out of tune.
I hear you about string gauge. 10's are best all around but I use 9's and 10's depending on the guitar and the style of music. Having said that, the guitar needs to be set up for the gauge of strings you are going to use. There is a lot more to string gauge than just intonation issues and a pretty thick book could be written on that subject alone.
I solved most all these issues when I got my first Tom Anderson guitar with a Buzz Feiten tuning system which by the way can be retro fitted to any guitar. I went to LA and talked to Tom on the second Anderson and got him to make one that was pretty much prefect for me.
Intonation is just one of many many issues with electric guitars. Having a guitar builder who truly understands all these issues and has the where with all to build what you want is a really big deal. One guitar will not do everything. Everyone can say whatever they like but nothing sounds like a vintage Gibson Les Paul. I have one, and it is a PITB to play for me. Way to heavy for one thing.
All of these issues can change depending on the environment you are playing in. Playing on a small stage with the drummer three foot away even if you have in ear monitoring is vastly different than in a professional studio. Playing Texas blues and classic jazz requires different guitars and strings and....on and on.
I love Fender guitars and Gibson guitars but the ones I have set in the case 90% of the time. If you come to my house in my music room there will be a Tom Anderson guitar setting in the guitar stand no more that three foot away every day without exception.
This conversation about how to get the sound you want out of a electric guitar could go on for hours. That does not even get into amps of which I have designed and built at least fifty. Tube electronics addiction...lol
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/04/21 06:04 AM.
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When I was looking for an MF horn years ago, a different mouth pipe solved the issue. I keep buying the MF guitars and they NEVER show up in tune!!! Though I would have to assume here that you and I don't mean the same thing by "MF"...
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...............................
I hear you about string gauge. 10's are best all around but I use 9's and 10's depending on the guitar and the style of music. Having said that, the guitar needs to be set up for the gauge of strings you are going to use. There is a lot more to string gauge than just intonation issues and a pretty thick book could be written on that subject alone.
..........................
One guitar will not do everything..............
........... Playing Texas blues and classic jazz requires different guitars and strings and....on and on.
...............
This also means that I have to practice on each guitar prior to recording. If I go straight from the 13 flat wounds to the 8 gauge I can not keep the 8 gauge in tune as I am playing and bending way to hard.
Rog touched on this but the condition of your frets mean a lot. If some are worn down you may never get your guitar in tune, or at least as close to in tune as it can get with new frets.
Last edited by MarioD; 08/04/21 10:50 AM.
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I agree with all of that Mario. I just changed strings on my "main" guitar. It is a bit difficult because of locking machine heads. Anderson come from Tom set up for 10's and 9's without having to reset the intonation. They ship with 10's. I use 9's, Ernie Ball Super Slinky 9,11,16,24,32,42 on that guitar. I change strings every day I play a gig.
I normally practice standing up to a drum or click track or backing track looking at a Peterson strobe tuner. I also practice at night with the lights out in the dark. Some stage conditions are very dark or the damn footlights are so bright they blind you even with sun glasses on. I really dislike footlight...a subject all it's own.
This is the older Buzz Feiten method of tuning. There are some new tuners a bit better than the Korg DT-7. By the way, this will not work on a standard guitar.
The Korg DT-7 is the fastest, most accurate and most reliable way to tune your guitar, and, because of its exclusive BFTS intonation mode, allows you to check intonation on your Feitenized guitar.
If you use a tuner other than the Korg DT-7, you can simply tune to all "E's" i.e.
1st
E
Open
2nd
B
5th fret
3rd
G
9th fret
4th
D
14th fret
5th
A
7th fret
6th
E
Open, 5th fret Harmonic
You can also use this method to tune by ear, using the Open E string (1st) as your reference string.
In 10 years I don't think I have broke more than two strings on a Anderson. I rarely every bend more than two half steps and on occasion three half steps.
One of my other Anderson has a vintage Kahler bridge and one has a Floyd bridge. Those two guitars will set in the case for weeks without going out of tune...locking nut and all that. I also find it much less disruptive to tune with my right hand while playing.
If you ever play a guitar with great intonation (less than 5 cents anywhere on the neck) it will make you painfully aware of fretting hand pressure/control...lol
Looks like the Horn guys can use some alternate valve positions. That is even more common on guitar for reasons of tone and chord inversions.
There is some trick stuff that can be done on Sax like playing three at the same time...lol
I have not had one of my Fender Strats out of the case for some time. I think I will change strings, reset the neck, reset the intonation, reset the strings height and see just how good or bad it is. All my Fender guitars have Grover machine heads. Some Fender machine heads or OK and some really suck. I have slightly modified the nut on all my Fender vintage guitars. As soon as I wear out the frets I change to stainless frets. There much better tone and volume pot than come in just about any guitar but they will not generally fit without some woodworking mods. Everything you never wanted know about guitars...lol
Jezzs...I am typing War and Peace here...enough...lol
Billy
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....................................
Jezzs...I am typing War and Peace here...enough...lol
Billy No its all good information. I rarely broke a string. Even when I was playing out I rarely broke one. I am in the process of changing strings on a couple of my guitars. I don't change them as much as I should. A couple guitars rarely get played so I have to change them prior to recording because as you know old strings do not stay in tune! PS - that is the condensed version of War and Peace - LOL.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
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Cool...LOL...This is the abridged version!
Billy
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,577
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Jan 19th, 2020
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